Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Didn't answer my questions though:

Are people that teach these doctrines under a curse as Paul said would happen to those who teach false doctrine, and are those who claim to be baptized in the Spirit indeed under a different spirit?

Here's some history on what you see today in Pentecostalism.

Wm. Seymour, a first generation son of emancipated slaves believed his voodoo tongues were the same as book of Acts tongues. The Church of God (Anderson) excommunicated him because of this. At Azusa St, he merged voodoo tongues with Wesley Methodism thinking all was fine.

Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery First Edition
by Curtis Edwards

Also consider this study;

Tongues speaking makes people high and relieves stress. And many today think this is the Holy Spirit because of the buzz they get doing it. But today's tongues are nothing like the originals in Acts. Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Uhm no you gave opinion based on your interpretation. A proof text would actually state that the baptisms of the Holy Spirit was complete after the apostles which it says nowhere.

It's there if you want it. But more will follow as the discussion develops.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
We still have Apostolic Authority today. I remember in the Episcopal Church we go through the membership class. Then the Bishop comes out and he personally lays hands on people and blesses them when they become a member of the church. We also have a book of common prayer that is used by more then one denomination.

None since the Apostles have the necessary credentials of an Apostle, especially being directly appointed by the Lord.

Heart2Soul · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
The challenge to you is in proving the Baptism, speaking in tongues and prophesying came in another way besides the two outpourings or through an Apostle's hands, using scripture only.

I challenge you to prove the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today and that it only came by the laying on of hands of an apostle.
You continue to deny the Holy Spirit and His purpose Jesus sent Him to us.
You want proof...and you have been given many scriptures and yet you still deny what has been given.
I pray God will minister to your heart and heal your unbelief.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
I challenge you to prove the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today and that it only came by the laying on of hands of an apostle.
You continue to deny the Holy Spirit and His purpose Jesus sent Him to us.
You want proof...and you have been given many scriptures and yet you still deny what has been given.
I pray God will minister to your heart and heal your unbelief.

You need to prove me wrong. Find one instance where the Baptism came from another source than the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. Using scripture....

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Strong in Him said:
So you've said; I disagree.

John's immediate audience were those who came to the Jordan and repented of their sins.
But after this, in Matthew 3:7 ->, he is speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees. In verse 12 he speaks of judgement.

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” Romans 8:9 (NASB95)

Heart2Soul · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
You need to prove me wrong. Find one instance where the Baptism came from another source than the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. Using scripture....

First of all, the Holy Spirit is given by Jesus, not the Apostles, secondly water baptism is symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is our spirit being born again of His Spirit.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
First of all, the Holy Spirit is given by Jesus, not the Apostles, secondly water baptism is symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is our spirit being born again of His Spirit.

If you try to prove me wrong using scripture only, you might see that I'm right about this.

Heart2Soul · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
If you try to prove me wrong using scripture only, you might see that I'm right about this.

John 1:33
John 1:33 - And I myself did not know him, but the one who ...

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
John 1:33
John 1:33 - And I myself did not know him, but the one who ...

Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
None since the Apostles have the necessary credentials of an Apostle, especially being directly appointed by the Lord.

Really? You do not know what Apostolic Authority is? We see this mostly in the Catholic Church but also the Orthodox, Anglo, Episcopal, Lutheran, LDS. Even Wesley and the Methodists. That is 7 different churches that I know of. Enough to be the 7 churches we read about in Rev.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
Really? You do not know what Apostolic Authority is? We see this mostly in the Catholic Church but also the Orthodox, Anglo, Episcopal, Lutheran, LDS. Even Wesley and the Methodists. That is 7 different churches that I know of. Enough to be the 7 churches we read about in Rev.

We don't see it in scripture though........

joshua 1 9 · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
You need to prove me wrong.

You can not prove a negative. Also why would anyone want to climb in your head to prove your thoughts wrong. It is easier just to filter it out and disregard claims that lack evidence.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
You can not prove a negative. Also why would anyone want to climb in your head to prove your thoughts wrong. It is easier just to filter it out and disregard claims that lack evidence.

If it is not in scripture, you cannot prove your point.

Heart2Soul · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands.

You are twisting scripture to fit your ideology.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
You are twisting scripture to fit your ideology.

You need to prove this from scripture and not bear false witness.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
We don't see it in scripture though........

Scripture is based on Apostolic Authority. We can always go back to Moses to see what He says about something. Deut 18:5 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him." Moses is talking about Jesus. Only Moses and Jesus has any authority. Ex 33:11 "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend."

Jesus passed His Authority onto the Disciples. Matthew 16:18 " Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church" "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

We have the authority to bind and loose. Psalm 118:22 "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone". Eph2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone."

People are without excuse because of all the testimony that we have. Luke 24 "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Yet you want to deny the authority of the scriptures? I question Billy Graham sometimes. Yet he was an Episcopalian so he had Apostolic Authority. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, the Methodist Church and my inheritance is the Pilgrim Church. My wife is a Methodist so I am sanctified through her.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
Scripture is based on Apostolic Authority. We can always go back to Moses to see what He says about something. Deut 18:5 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him." Moses is talking about Jesus. Only Moses and Jesus has any authority. Ex 33:11 "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend."

Jesus passed His Authority onto the Disciples. Matthew 16:18 " Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church" "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

We have the authority to bind and loose. Psalm 118:22 "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone". Eph2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone."

People are without excuse because of all the testimony that we have. Luke 24 "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Yet you want to deny the authority of the scriptures? I question Billy Graham sometimes. Yet he was an Episcopalian so he had Apostolic Authority. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, the Methodist Church and my inheritance is the Pilgrim Church. My wife is a Methodist so I am sanctified through her.

In the NT Pastors, elders, bishops (episcopate) are the same person.

“Now from Miletus, he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.” (Acts 20:17) (HCSB)

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers [Bishops/episcopate], to shepherd [pastor] the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (HCSB)

Charlie24 · Aug 18, 2019

Dave L said:
If it is not in scripture, you cannot prove your point.

Hello Dave! Let's take a look at what Paul is saying about these gifts.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul is saying here that these gifts, actually all of them, are going to be over, they will end at some point.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Paul is saying here that even with these gifts we do not have full knowledge.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

OK, something perfect is coming and these gifts will no longer be needed.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Paul is here is comparing our present state "as a child" to that which is coming, symbolizing a mature adult. Let's stop here for a moment.

Is Paul saying here that he will become an adult when the full canon of NT scripture
is completed, or when the rapture takes place where we will be perfect?

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul is saying that now he can't see clearly but will see clearly when that which is perfect has come. He knows in part but then he will have full knowledge.

What is "that which is perfect" Paul is referring to? That is the question that settles the differences.

Let's put this into perspective.
Is Paul saying,

I can't see or understand fully while living this life on earth but when the rapture comes I will receive a perfect body and will not need these gifts anymore.

Or is he saying,

I can't see or understand fully until the NT canon of scripture is completed and I will not need these gifts anymore.

I submit that Paul didn't need the canon of scripture to see or understand, he needed the perfect body to see and understand. Which means that I have to disagree with you
Dave, with all due respect.

Dave L · Aug 18, 2019

Charlie24 said:
Hello Dave! Let's take a look at what Paul is saying about these gifts.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul is saying here that these gifts, actually all of them, are going to be over, they will end at some point.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Paul is saying here that even with these gifts we do not have full knowledge.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

OK, something perfect is coming and these gifts will no longer be needed.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Paul is here is comparing our present state "as a child" to that which is coming, symbolizing a mature adult. Let's stop here for a moment.

Is Paul saying here that he will become an adult when the full canon of NT scripture
is completed, or when the rapture takes place where we will be perfect?

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul is saying that now he can't see clearly but will see clearly when that which is perfect has come. He knows in part but then he will have full knowledge.

What is "that which is perfect" Paul is referring to? That is the question that settles the differences.

Let's put this into perspective.
Is Paul saying,

I can't see or understand fully while living this life on earth but when the rapture comes I will receive a perfect body and will not need these gifts anymore.

Or is he saying,

I can't see or understand fully until the NT canon of scripture is completed and I will not need these gifts anymore.

I submit that Paul didn't need the canon of scripture to see or understand, he needed the perfect body to see and understand. Which means that I have to disagree with you
Dave, with all due respect.

But only an apostle could impart the gifts beyond the two outpourings. You need to align other scriptures with this, then draw conclusions.

Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

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