LDS Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh

yeshuaslavejeff

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Amen. Jesus wanted baptism to be performed a certain way. Then after his death, men got together and in their wisdom said, there are times we just cant do it that way, so we will do it this way. And many other things changed because of men's wisdom, until we got to a spot when the existing churches didn't look or act like the original first century church. Changes in baptism was just the tip of an iceberg. Thanks for recognizing it.
The recognizing IN THE FIRST CENTURY already : "many anti-christs among us", and false teachings and false prophets and false gospels after the first century
do not ever make a false religion like mormonism anything right.... mormonism is part of that fake "iceberg" of man's false ways , contrary to the truth , contrary to God's Word, contrary to God's One True Way.
 
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D.A. Wright

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Amen. Jesus wanted baptism to be performed a certain way. Then after his death, men got together and in their wisdom said, there are times we just cant do it that way, so we will do it this way. And many other things changed because of men's wisdom, until we got to a spot when the existing churches didn't look or act like the original first century church. Changes in baptism was just the tip of an iceberg. Thanks for recognizing it.
My pleasure, but that's not all I recognize.
 
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Peter1000

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The recognizing IN THE FIRST CENTURY already : "many anti-christs among us", and false teachings and false prophets and false gospels after the first century
do not ever make a false religion like mormonism anything right.... mormonism is part of that fake "iceberg" of man's false ways , contrary to the truth , contrary to God's Word, contrary to God's One True Way.
Well, at least on this point, we both know the truth. I am sure there are other concepts that we agree are true also.
 
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Peter1000

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'know the truth' ? the post and the label 'Mormon' do not agree with each other.
You might be surprised how much truth we share about the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a difference in our belief systems, but can we at least stop stabbing each other when we do agree on a truthful concept?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You might be surprised how much truth we share about the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a difference in our belief systems, but can we at least stop stabbing each other when we do agree on a truthful concept?
a false jesus is a false gospel is deadly and totally opposed to the truth.
 
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Peter1000

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a false jesus is a false gospel is deadly and totally opposed to the truth.
Your not going to stop stabbing are you. There is only 1 Jesus, we think differently about him than you do, but we both follow Jesus. You think differently about him than does other fellow Christians, so it seems to be a deadly business instead of a light and life business for you.
We will pray for you.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Your not going to stop stabbing are you. There is only 1 Jesus, we think differently about him than you do, but we both follow Jesus. You think differently about him than does other fellow Christians, so it seems to be a deadly business instead of a light and life business for you.
We will pray for you.
The one true Jesus is opposed by mormonism, and by almost all other religions on earth, even some called 'Christian' !

Do not weep for me, weep for yourselves, for the travail that will soon come upon all who are opposed to Jesus.....
 
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Daniel Marsh

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a false jesus is a false gospel is deadly and totally opposed to the truth.
Galatians 1:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
There Is Only One Good News Message
6 A short time ago God chose you to follow him. He chose you through his grace that came through Christ. But now I am amazed that you are already turning away and believing something different from the Good News we told you. 7 There is no other message that is the Good News, but some people are confusing you. They want to change the Good News about Christ. 8 We told you the true Good News message. So anyone who tells you a different message should be condemned—even if it’s one of us or even an angel from heaven!

2 Corinthians 11:14 That does not surprise us, because even Satan changes himself to look like an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The ruler of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the message about the divine greatness of Christ. Christ is the one who is exactly like God.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Utter balderdash. I can't believe you're actually urging a single prooftext from Ezekiel to advance the validity of the method of Catholic baptism. The availability of water is key? My head hurts now.

You go on to reference anything and everything but the Bible, which uses the word "baptizo," which literally means to bury or submerge. Christ "came up out of the water." (Mark 1:10) (Thought I'd use the Gospel purported to be according to Peter, as dictated to his assistant, just for your benefit.) Young's Literal Translation says "immediately coming up from the water." The Greek (to which I rarely resort, if that tells you anything) uses the word transliterated "anabaino," ascend; to go up; mount; be borne up; spring up; climb up; grow up; rise up. The only thing left to add is jalapenos. Of the 28 translations listed for this verse on Biblehub.com, 25 use the word "up."

Its God's Baptism, not Catholic alone. It is God who is speaking, not the Pope or the Apostles.

Exodus 29:21 Then take some of the blood from the altar. Mix it with the special oil and sprinkle it on Aaron and his clothes. And sprinkle it on his sons and their clothes. This will show that Aaron and his sons serve me in a special way. And it will show that their clothes are used only at special times.
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Leviticus 4:6 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the curtain of the Most Holy Place.
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Leviticus 4:17 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times in front of the curtain before the Lord.
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Leviticus 5:9 The priest will sprinkle the blood from the sin offering on the side of the altar. Then he will pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.
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Leviticus 6:27 Touching the meat of the sin offering makes a person or a thing holy. “If any of the sprinkled blood falls on a person’s clothes, you must wash the clothes in a holy place.
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Leviticus 7:2 A priest must kill the guilt offering in the same place where they kill the burnt offerings. Then he must sprinkle the blood from the guilt offering around the altar.
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Leviticus 7:14 Offer one each of these different kinds of bread as a gift to the Lord. Then it will belong to the priest who sprinkles the blood of the fellowship offerings.
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Leviticus 8:10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and sprinkled it on the Holy Tent and on everything in it. In this way he made them holy.
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Leviticus 8:11 He sprinkled some of the anointing oil on the altar seven times. He sprinkled the oil on the altar, on all its tools and dishes, and on the bowl and its base. In this way he made them holy.
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Leviticus 8:19 Then Moses killed the ram. He sprinkled the blood around on the altar.
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Leviticus 8:24 Then Moses brought Aaron’s sons close to the altar. He put some of the blood on the tip of their right ears, on the thumb of their right hands, and on the big toe of their right feet. Then he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.
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Leviticus 8:30 Moses took some of the anointing oil and some of the blood that was on the altar. He sprinkled some on Aaron and on Aaron’s clothes. He sprinkled some on Aaron’s sons who were with Aaron and on their clothes. In this way Moses made Aaron, his clothes, his sons, and his sons’ clothes holy.
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Leviticus 9:12 Next, Aaron killed the animal for the burnt offering. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.
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Leviticus 9:18 Aaron also killed the bull and the ram that were the fellowship offerings from the people. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled this blood around on the altar.
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Leviticus 14:7 He must sprinkle the blood seven times on those who had the skin disease. Then he must announce that they are clean. After that the priest must go to an open field and let the living bird go free.
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Leviticus 14:16 Then the priest will dip the finger of his right hand into the oil that is in his left palm. He will use his finger to sprinkle some of the oil seven times before the Lord.
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Leviticus 14:27 He will use the finger of his right hand to sprinkle some of the oil that is in his left palm seven times before the Lord.
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Leviticus 14:51 Then he will take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the piece of red cloth, and the living bird and dip them in the blood of the bird that was killed over running water. Then he will sprinkle that blood on the house seven times.
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Leviticus 16:14 Aaron will dip his finger into the bull’s blood and sprinkle it on the front of the Holy Box. Then he will sprinkle the blood seven times onto the front of the mercy-cover.
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Leviticus 16:15 “Then Aaron will kill the goat of the sin offering for the people. He will bring this goat’s blood into the room behind the curtain. He will do with the goat’s blood as he did with the bull’s blood. He will sprinkle the goat’s blood on the mercy-cover and in front of it.
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Leviticus 16:19 Then he will dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it on the altar seven times. In this way Aaron will make the altar holy and clean from all the sins of the Israelites.
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Numbers 8:7 This is what you should do to make them clean: Sprinkle the special water from the sin offering on them. This water will make them clean. Then they must shave their bodies and wash their clothes. This will make their bodies clean.
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Numbers 18:17 “But you must not make a payment for the firstborn cow, sheep, or goat. These animals are holy. Sprinkle their blood on the altar and burn their fat as a sweet-smelling gift to the Lord.
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Numbers 19:4 Then Eleazar the priest must put some of its blood on his finger and sprinkle some of the blood toward the Holy Tent. He must do this seven times.
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Numbers 19:18 That clean person must take a hyssop branch and dip it into the water. The clean person must sprinkle it over the tent, the dishes, and any people who were in the tent. That clean person must do this for anyone who touches a dead body, its bones, or even a grave.

Numbers 19:19 “Then that clean person must sprinkle this water on you on the third day and again on the seventh day. On the seventh day you will become clean. You must wash your clothes in water and you will become clean in the evening.
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Numbers 19:20 “Whoever becomes unclean and does not become clean must be separated from the community. If an unclean person is not sprinkled with that special water and does not become clean, that person might make the Lord’s Holy Tent unclean.
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Numbers 19:21 This rule will be for you forever. And whoever sprinkled the special water must wash their clothes because they will be unclean until evening.
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2 Kings 16:13 Ahaz burned his burnt offerings and grain offerings on it. He poured his drink offering and sprinkled the blood of his fellowship offerings on this altar.
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2 Kings 16:15 He commanded Uriah the priest, “Use the large altar to burn the morning burnt offerings, the evening grain offerings, and the drink offerings from all the people of this country. Sprinkle all the blood from the burnt offering and other sacrifices on the large altar. But I will use the bronze altar to get answers from God.”
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2 Chronicles 29:22 So the priests killed the bulls and kept the blood. Then they sprinkled the bulls’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the rams and sprinkled the rams’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the lambs and sprinkled the lambs’ blood on the altar.
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2 Chronicles 30:16 They took their regular places in the Temple as described in the Law of Moses, the man of God. The Levites gave the blood to the priests. Then the priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.
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2 Chronicles 34:4 As Josiah watched, the people broke down the altars for the Baal gods. Then he cut down the incense altars that stood high above the people. He broke the idols that were carved and the idols that were made from molds. He beat the idols into powder and sprinkled the powder on the graves of the people who had offered sacrifices to the Baal gods.
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2 Chronicles 35:11 The Passover lambs were killed. Then the Levites skinned the animals and gave the blood to the priests. The priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.
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Job 18:15 Nothing will be left in their tents, which will be sprinkled with burning sulfur.
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Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
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Ezekiel 43:18 Then the man said to me, “Son of man, this is what the Lord God says: ‘These are the rules for the altar: At the time you build the altar, use these rules to offer burnt offerings and to sprinkle blood on it.
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Ezekiel 43:24 Then you will offer them before the Lord. The priests will sprinkle salt on them. Then they will offer the bull and ram up as a burnt offering to the Lord.
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Hosea 7:9 Strangers destroy Ephraim’s strength, but Ephraim does not know it. Gray hairs are also sprinkled on Ephraim, but Ephraim does not know it.
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Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies.
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Hebrews 9:19 First, Moses told the people every command in the law. Then he took the blood of young bulls and mixed it with water. He used red wool and a branch of hyssop to sprinkle the blood and water on the book of the law and on all the people.
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Hebrews 9:21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the Holy Tent. He sprinkled the blood over everything used in worship.
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Hebrews 10:22Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ.
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Hebrews 12:24 You have come to Jesus—the one who brought the new agreement from God to his people. You have come to the sprinkled blood that tells us about better things than the blood of Abel.
 
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Ezekiel 36 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Land of Israel Will Be Rebuilt
36 “Son of man,[a] speak to the mountains of Israel for me. Tell them to listen to the word of the Lord! 2 Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘The enemy said bad things against you. They said, Hurray! Now the ancient mountains will be ours!’

3 “So speak to the mountains of Israel for me. Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘The enemy destroyed your cities and attacked you from every direction. They did this so that you would belong to the other nations. Then people talked and whispered about you.’”

4 So, mountains of Israel, listen to the word of the Lord God! This is what the Lord God says to the mountains, hills, streams, valleys, empty ruins, and abandoned cities that have been looted and laughed at by the other nations around them. 5 The Lord God says, “I swear, I will let my strong feelings speak for me! I will let Edom and the other nations feel my anger. They took my land for themselves. They really had a good time when they showed how much they hated this land. They took the land for themselves, just so they could destroy it.”

6 “So say these things about the land of Israel. Speak to the mountains and to the hills, to the streams, and to the valleys. Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘I will let my strong feelings and anger speak for me, because you had to suffer the insults from those nations.’”

7 So this is what the Lord God says: “I am the one making this promise! I swear that the nations around you will have to suffer for those insults.

8 “But mountains of Israel, you will grow new trees and produce fruit for my people Israel. My people will soon come back. 9 I am with you, and I will help you. People will till your soil and plant seeds in you. 10 There will be many people living on you. The whole family of Israel—all of them—will live there. The cities will have people living in them. The destroyed places will be rebuilt. 11 I will give you many people and animals, and they will grow and have many children. I will bring people to live on you as in the past. I will make it better for you than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. 12 Yes, I will lead many people—my people, Israel—to your land. You will be their property, and you will not take away their children again.”

13 This is what the Lord God says: “Land of Israel, people say bad things to you. They say you destroyed your people. They say you took the children away from your people. 14 But you will not destroy people anymore or take away their children again.” This is what the Lord God said. 15 “I will not let those other nations insult you anymore. You will not be hurt by them anymore. You will not take the children away from your people again.” This is what the Lord God said.

The Lord Will Protect His Name
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, 17 “Son of man, the family of Israel lived in their own country, but they made that land filthy by the bad things they did. To me, they were like a woman who becomes unclean because of her monthly time of bleeding. 18 They spilled blood on the ground when they murdered people in the land. They made the land filthy with their idols, so I showed them how angry I was. 19 I scattered them among the nations and spread them through all the lands. I gave them the punishment they deserved for the bad things they did. 20 But even in those other nations, they ruined my good name. How? Those nations said, ‘These are the Lord’s people, but they left his land.’

21 “The people of Israel ruined my holy name wherever they went, and I felt sorry for my name. 22 So tell the family of Israel that this is what the Lord God says: ‘Family of Israel, you ruined my holy name in the places where you went. I am going to do something to stop this. I will not do it for your sake, Israel. I will do it for my holy name. 23 I will show the nations how holy my great name really is. You ruined my good name in those nations! But I will show you that I am holy. I will make you respect my name, and then those nations will know that I am the Lord.’” This is what the Lord God said.

24 “I will take you out of those nations, gather you together, and bring you back to your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure. 26 I will also put a new spirit in you to change your way of thinking. I will take out the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender, human heart. 27 I will put my Spirit inside you[c] and change you so that you will obey my laws. You will carefully obey my commands. 28 Then you will live in the land that I gave to your ancestors. You will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 Also, I will save you and keep you from becoming unclean.
I will command the grain to grow. I will not bring a famine against you. 30 I will give you large crops of fruit from your trees and the harvest from your fields so that you will never again feel the shame of being hungry in a foreign country. 31 You will remember the bad things you did. You will remember that those things were not good. Then you will hate yourselves because of your sins and the terrible things you did.”

32 The Lord God says, “I want you to remember this: I am not doing these things for your good! I am doing them for my good name. Family of Israel, you should be ashamed and embarrassed about the way you lived!”

33 This is what the Lord God says: “On the day that I wash away your sins, I will bring people back to your cities. The ruined cities will be rebuilt. 34 People will begin again to work the land so when other people pass by they will not see ruins anymore. 35 They will say, ‘In the past, this land was ruined, but now it is like the Garden of Eden. The cities were destroyed. They were ruined and empty, but now they are protected, and there are people living in them.’

36 “Then the nations that are still around you will know I am the Lord and that I rebuilt those places. I planted things in this land that was empty. I am the Lord. I said this, and I will make them happen!”

37 This is what the Lord God says: “I will also let the family of Israel come to me and ask me to do these things for them. I will make them grow and become many people. They will be like flocks of sheep. 38 During the special festivals, Jerusalem was filled with flocks of sheep and goats that had been made holy. In the same way the cities and ruined places will be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”
 
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mmksparbud

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That's exactly what we believe. It is called the apostasy, when the church fathers and church philosophers and church doctors of religion started to change the ordinances of baptism and others. Lots of changes within 40 years of the ascension of Jesus Christ. So I am glad you recognize that also.

There is a big difference in denominations changing the word of God within their denomination---and the word of God itself having been destroyed altogether. Not the same thing at all. God's word is intact, it's how it is reads that's the problem, not the wholesale removal of entire doctrines from it.
 
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Amen. Jesus wanted baptism to be performed a certain way. Then after his death, men got together and in their wisdom said, there are times we just cant do it that way, so we will do it this way. And many other things changed because of men's wisdom, until we got to a spot when the existing churches didn't look or act like the original first century church. Changes in baptism was just the tip of an iceberg. Thanks for recognizing it.

Yes, I do believe in baptism by immersion, just as Jesus and the dicples and all 1st Christians did. And I do believe we must be baptized---whenever possible. If, as the theif on the cross, it is not possible---Jesus was bsptized without sin, His baptism, as His blood, covers us.
 
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Its God's Baptism, not Catholic alone. It is God who is speaking, not the Pope or the Apostles.

You're the one who said:

This is witnessed by archaeology, ancient near eastern texts related to the OT. Other books on early texts related to the Bible, History, Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles themselves. The reference to other purification rituals demonstrate that there was a wide range from Sprinkling to dunking.

Now you're mass copying and pasting search results for "sprinkle" from the Bible.

Do you have a personal, systematic theology or do you just like to "volley and thunder?"
 
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Peter1000

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The one true Jesus is opposed by mormonism, and by almost all other religions on earth, even some called 'Christian' !

Do not weep for me, weep for yourselves, for the travail that will soon come upon all who are opposed to Jesus.....
You don't get it, we are not opposed to Jesus. He is the center of our lives.

We do not oppose Jesus. He is the centerpiece of our lives. We model our lives after his life.
Let me tell you this another way.

If you and I were walking down the street and some bikers came up beside us and stopped us and said, deny that Jesus is the Christ or we will kill you now.
If I know you, you would say, kill me, because I will not deny.
I would follow with the exact same statement. You and I at that moment would shed our biases and would hug each other and wait for the gun to end our lives. We would at that moment love each other because we both love Jesus Christ.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes, I do believe in baptism by immersion, just as Jesus and the dicples and all 1st Christians did. And I do believe we must be baptized---whenever possible. If, as the theif on the cross, it is not possible---Jesus was bsptized without sin, His baptism, as His blood, covers us.
I understand how you can believe your doctrine. It is plausible.

Of course we believe a little differently. We believe that if the thief on the cross did not get baptized before he was killed, he would have the opportunity to be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ in Paradise, and then have the ordinance of baptism performed by someone in a temple to fulfill all righteousness for him by proxy.

The word proxy is the key word for both of us. For you, it is Jesus's baptism that is a proxy for the thief. For us, it is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ in a temple that is a proxy for the thief. In either case the thief will have a proxy baptism and will be saved.
 
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You don't get it, we are not opposed to Jesus. He is the center of our lives.

We do not oppose Jesus. He is the centerpiece of our lives. We model our lives after his life.
Let me tell you this another way.

If you and I were walking down the street and some bikers came up beside us and stopped us and said, deny that Jesus is the Christ or we will kill you now.
If I know you, you would say, kill me, because I will not deny.
I would follow with the exact same statement. You and I at that moment would shed our biases and would hug each other and wait for the gun to end our lives. We would at that moment love each other because we both love Jesus Christ.

Friend, the cornerstone tenet of orthodox Christianity is that Christ is the Sovereign of the universe, co-eternal and fully equal to the other two personalities of the Godhead: The Father and the Spirit. My understanding is that the Mormon Church does not hold this position. If I'm correct, isn't it a bit disingenuous for you to be trying to portray an accord where, in fact, there is none?

And try not to get too worked up by Jeff. He seems to be having some sort of crisis.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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My understanding is that the Mormon Church does not hold this position.
Correct.
And the Scripture , Yahuweh's Word, says IF ANYONE brings a different gospel than the one once delivered, have nothing to do with them (other than exposing the false gospel).

Nowhere is it written or stated in Yahuweh's Purpose and Plan in Christ Jesus to try to "make friends" nor to "have fellowship" with those who
bring that false gospel (mormonism or any other one).
 
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Peter1000

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Friend, the cornerstone tenet of orthodox Christianity is that Christ is the Sovereign of the universe, co-eternal and fully equal to the other two personalities of the Godhead: The Father and the Spirit. My understanding is that the Mormon Church does not hold this position. If I'm correct, isn't it a bit disingenuous for you to be trying to portray an accord where, in fact, there is none?

And try not to get too worked up by Jeff. He seems to be having some sort of crisis.
There is a place that is safe for all of us to express this statement: Christ, and Him crucified; first, last, and always.

Regardless of what we all think and believe beyond this statement is less important that this ultimate statement. I can make it with a straight face with out a disingenuous though in my head, because that is what I believe, first and foremost.

So in this statement there is 100% accord with you and should be with all on this forum.

That is why I keep saying, if someone accosted you and I on the street, and threatened to gun us down if we did not deny Christ, you and I would both give our lives at that moment rather than deny Christ. At that very moment, what we believe beyond that statement is irrelevant, and our biases are suddenly reduced to zero. Does that make sense.
 
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