To Non-Believers, Is This Evidence For Satan?

Status
Not open for further replies.

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I ended up in a heated discussion with someone, whom I think was an evolutionist, who exclaimed birds came from dinosaurs. I said that I didn't think little, tiny birds evolved from great, big, gigantic dinosaurs and that Oregon State University research showed that a bird's lung development was different from a dinosaur's, i.e. a bird would not be able to breathe and fly if they had lungs like dinosaurs. He came back and insisted, "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS!" and went on to explain in a rant like fashion. I thought he wanted to go to fisticuffs, since I was contradicting him as he thundered on, so I just humored him until he calmed down.

Later, I looked at my six days of creation chart and saw that birds were created on the 4th day while land animals were created on the 5th. Now, I didn't tell him this, but it dawned on me that whatever atheists/evolutionists believe contradicts what God stated in the first two books of Genesis.

Isn't this evidence for Satan? First, Satan doesn't want you to believe he exists, so people usually do not want proof of Satan nor does anyone even bring him up for discussion. Non-believers want proof of God when there isn't any proof for an unproveable God. When you end up discussing God with them, you find they usually blame God for something such as evil in the OT or why does he allow babies to suffer? Whatever evidence you present is not good enough. One atheist said if he opened the ground in front of him and gave him a brand new car of his choice, then he'll believe. Um... it takes faith... but you do not even get to that point.

What I am getting at using Satan that he exists... because we have God created the heavens and Earth from nothing, but evolutionary thinking says it was the big bang which caused it from nothing (before that it was the eternal universe). God created Adam and Eve as adult humans and animals as adult animals. Instead, they say, no, we had the egg before the chicken and abiogenesis, so this is how life came into existence and evolved. And so on. It turned out that everything I could think of between creation and atheist/evolutionary beliefs contradicted each other. All of these debates have come down throughout the centuries, so there could be no collaboration as to what the people who came up with the atheist/evolutionary hypothesis wrote. These writers were in different fields of work and it was written at different times. It wasn't put together in a book like the Bible, but if it was, then it was as if Satan had wrote an antiGenesis.

These contradictions goes beyond that, too. It isn't just evolution, but moral values such as not killing a fetus vs. abortion and a worman's rights, homosexuality vs. man and woman marriiage, and even how the world is going to end -- global fire vs. AGW/huge asteroid hits the earth causing a catastrophic chain reaction. It turns out that everything that God stated in the Bible is contradicted by Satan. Maybe that's just his rebellious nature and he can't help himself.

Thus, when you add all the contradictions up, is this evidence for Satan? Does this convince you that Satan exists? Bad stuff usually does not happen by coincidence.
 

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I ended up in a heated discussion with someone, whom I think was an evolutionist, who exclaimed birds came from dinosaurs. I said that I didn't think little, tiny birds evolved from great, big, gigantic dinosaurs and that Oregon State University research showed that a bird's lung development was different from a dinosaur's, i.e. a bird would not be able to breathe and fly if they had lungs like dinosaurs. He came back and insisted, "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS!" and went on to explain in a rant like fashion. I thought he wanted to go to fisticuffs, since I was contradicting him as he thundered on, so I just humored him until he calmed down.

Later, I looked at my six days of creation chart and saw that birds were created on the 4th day while land animals were created on the 5th. Now, I didn't tell him this, but it dawned on me that whatever atheists/evolutionists believe contradicts what God stated in the first two books of Genesis.

Isn't this evidence for Satan? First, Satan doesn't want you to believe he exists, so people usually do not want proof of Satan nor does anyone even bring him up for discussion. Non-believers want proof of God when there isn't any proof for an unproveable God. When you end up discussing God with them, you find they usually blame God for something such as evil in the OT or why does he allow babies to suffer? Whatever evidence you present is not good enough. One atheist said if he opened the ground in front of him and gave him a brand new car of his choice, then he'll believe. Um... it takes faith... but you do not even get to that point.

What I am getting at using Satan that he exists... because we have God created the heavens and Earth from nothing, but evolutionary thinking says it was the big bang which caused it from nothing (before that it was the eternal universe). God created Adam and Eve as adult humans and animals as adult animals. Instead, they say, no, we had the egg before the chicken and abiogenesis, so this is how life came into existence and evolved. And so on. It turned out that everything I could think of between creation and atheist/evolutionary beliefs contradicted each other. All of these debates have come down throughout the centuries, so there could be no collaboration as to what the people who came up with the atheist/evolutionary hypothesis wrote. These writers were in different fields of work and it was written at different times. It wasn't put together in a book like the Bible, but if it was, then it was as if Satan had wrote an antiGenesis.

These contradictions goes beyond that, too. It isn't just evolution, but moral values such as not killing a fetus vs. abortion and a worman's rights, homosexuality vs. man and woman marriiage, and even how the world is going to end -- global fire vs. AGW/huge asteroid hits the earth causing a catastrophic chain reaction. It turns out that everything that God stated in the Bible is contradicted by Satan. Maybe that's just his rebellious nature and he can't help himself.

Thus, when you add all the contradictions up, is this evidence for Satan? Does this convince you that Satan exists? Bad stuff usually does not happen by coincidence.
Nice post... no, it isn't necessarily proof of satan as this contradiction just proves man is fallible. I do like the use of "fisticuffs." Hadn't seen that in a while! :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,124
6,332
✟275,076.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I ended up in a heated discussion with someone, whom I think was an evolutionist, who exclaimed birds came from dinosaurs. I said that I didn't think little, tiny birds evolved from great, big, gigantic dinosaurs

Theropod dinosaurs ranged massively in size, with the smallest known species around the size of a smallish duck.

Survival characteristics depend on the environment. If you want to understand how very small creatures can develop from much larger ancestors, look up 'insular dwarfism'.

and that Oregon State University research showed that a bird's lung development was different from a dinosaur's, i.e. a bird would not be able to breathe and fly if they had lungs like dinosaurs.

I looked up the Oregon State study, and then did a little more reading. Subsequent research has shown this conclusion to be at least partially incorrect. More current research, using the same techniques, has shown that non-avian dinosaurs had bird-like structures in their lungs (but not bird lungs, per se), which gave them an advantage give the atmospheric conditions prevailing at the time.

He came back and insisted, "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS!" and went on to explain in a rant like fashion. I thought he wanted to go to fisticuffs, since I was contradicting him as he thundered on, so I just humored him until he calmed down.

11334080.png


Birds ARE descended from dinosaurs. This is pretty clear from the fossil, taxonomic and genetic evidence.

You could have come across someone that was arguing "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS" as shorthand for this, but given your posting history here and way of characterising the behaviour of others, I suspect other explanations are more plausible.

Later, I looked at my six days of creation chart and saw that birds were created on the 4th day while land animals were created on the 5th. Now, I didn't tell him this, but it dawned on me that whatever atheists/evolutionists believe contradicts what God stated in the first two books of Genesis.

Here's the thing: as far as evolutionary biology is concerned, the Christian creation story is a non-entity. What matters is the physical evidence available, and the best available evidence points to the first land animals emerging from the water somewhere around 350-375 million years ago, and the first flying creatures evolving around 225-250 million years ago (and the first birds about 50-55 million years ago).

So, unless you've got something that contradicts an interval of around 125-150 million years, I'm going to go with the physical evidence available to us.

Isn't this evidence for Satan?

Yes, but only in the way that it totally isn't. This is as much evidence for Satan as it is evidence that my 2 year old was Cleopatra in a previous life.
 
Upvote 0

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why would "non-believers" find evidence for satan in anything?

God wrote it. Afterwards, the atheist/evos writers contradicted what God said he did.

The majority of christian does accept the theory of evolution, by the way.

Isn't it the other way around? God wrote what happened first. The ToE came much later. BTW, it didn't just start with ToE. It started with evolutionary thinking and history between the Stoics and Epicureans. They took the apostle Paul to the Areopagus to debate and explain his creation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Theropod dinosaurs ranged massively in size, with the smallest known species around the size of a smallish duck.

Survival characteristics depend on the environment. If you want to understand how very small creatures can develop from much larger ancestors, look up 'insular dwarfism'.

It still boils down to large, enormous with leathery skin to teeny, tiny, and with feathers. And what does the latter have to do with dinosaurs?

Birds ARE descended from dinosaurs. This is pretty clear from the fossil, taxonomic and genetic evidence.

You could have come across someone that was arguing "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS" as shorthand for this, but given your posting history here and way of characterising the behaviour of others, I suspect other explanations are more plausible.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not because this argument is due to all the contradictions from the ancient times to today. They're all contradictions. Name one hypothesis/theory that doesn't contradict what God said he did/happened.

It's okay to believe your false birds are dinosaurs (shorthand). The birds from dinosaurs argument just made me take notice of all the different discussions I've had here and in life with others. Atheists usually discuss God since they are without God. They never mention Satan even though it's in the Bible. I am arguing the Bible theory, book of Genesis, in regards to science as science backs up the Bible. It also applies to morals and unrelated stuff like end of the world, i.e. future events.

Here's the thing: as far as evolutionary biology is concerned, the Christian creation story is a non-entity. What matters is the physical evidence available, and the best available evidence points to the first land animals emerging from the water somewhere around 350-375 million years ago, and the first flying creatures evolving around 225-250 million years ago (and the first birds about 50-55 million years ago).

So, unless you've got something that contradicts an interval of around 125-150 million years, I'm going to go with the physical evidence available to us.

Are you a biologist or studied science in college?

The creation story is a "non-entity" because atheist/secular scientists systematically eliminated their main competition from the 1850s. Today's creation scientists can't participate in their peer reviews. Thus, secular science has become very one sided. We've had creation scientists get fired and had to sue to get back their jobs and benefits. Before the 1850s, creation scientists dominated in science. Some of the greatest scientists were creation scientists -- Creation scientists - creation.com.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not because this argument is due to all the contradictions from the ancient times to today. They're all contradictions. Another example would be God created the universe and Earth. Today, we have the multiverse theory and I just read an article on part of Hawking's last paper last week.

Name one hypothesis/theory that doesn't contradict what God said he did/happened.

Here's the thing: as far as evolutionary biology is concerned, the Christian creation story is a non-entity. What matters is the physical evidence available, and the best available evidence points to the first land animals emerging from the water somewhere around 350-375 million years ago, and the first flying creatures evolving around 225-250 million years ago (and the first birds about 50-55 million years ago).

So, unless you've got something that contradicts an interval of around 125-150 million years, I'm going to go with the physical evidence available to us.

You want me to do your work? I already stated that God created fully adult humans and animals according to Bible theory. This would include plants and all living organisms. This explains asexual and sexual reproduction being created. We found the chicken came before the egg in 2017. It's a fact now. You can't even show how a protein was formed. How did the single-cell develop? It wasn't spontaneous generation.

Our discussions lead to more contradictions, which was my point as evidence for Satan.

Yes, but only in the way that it totally isn't. This is as much evidence for Satan as it is evidence that my 2 year old was Cleopatra in a previous life.

Straw man argument. God did not mention reincarnation. He mentioned Satan though quite a few times. Satan was originally Lucifer, the best and probably the most handsome angel. I think he was a bit narcissistic, selfish, and egotistical. He thought he was just as good and powerful as God.
 
Upvote 0

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Nice post... no, it isn't necessarily proof of satan as this contradiction just proves man is fallible. I do like the use of "fisticuffs." Hadn't seen that in a while! :oldthumbsup:

What do you think all the contradictions mean? It can't just be coincidence or due to human nature. These were mainly isolated events/writings during different time periods.

ETA: No scientist would read the Bible and then say, okay, I'll just contradict what it said. They reached their hypothesis on their own. Yet, it ended up contradicting what God said. What could cause that?

A few contradictions I can accept as coincidence, but not everything God wrote. Especially, bad things (I'm being judgmental here). Bad coincidences are not coincidences. That's human nature.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ken Rank
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship

How do you explain all the contradictions? For example, 'And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.' Genesis 1:3 He made the EMS the first day after creating the universe (heaven and Earth). With big bang, everything is set up in 20 mins which we have no idea what happened. It took God six days to create everything and he rested the final day. How did big bang do all that in 20 mins?

Another is creation ex nihilo becomes universe ex nihilo. Creation from nothing to universe from nothing.

Aren't these contradictions? Aren't they all contradictions?

If they are all contradictions, then isn't that evidence for Satan? They could not be coincidences.
 
Upvote 0

caerlerion

Active Member
Jun 28, 2019
78
88
No
✟21,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I ended up in a heated discussion with someone, whom I think was an evolutionist, who exclaimed birds came from dinosaurs.
The proper term is "person who accepts the reality of scientific discoveries and evidence."

I said that I didn't think little, tiny birds evolved from great, big, gigantic dinosaurs
Nothing about evolution requires an increase in size.

and that Oregon State University research showed that a bird's lung development was different from a dinosaur's, i.e. a bird would not be able to breathe and fly if they had lungs like dinosaurs.
They're different because birds evolved from dinosaurs. They're not identical.

He came back and insisted, "BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS!" and went on to explain in a rant like fashion. I thought he wanted to go to fisticuffs, since I was contradicting him as he thundered on, so I just humored him until he calmed down.
Terrific series of Ad Hominems.

but it dawned on me that whatever atheists/evolutionists
Not the same thing. Do you know there's Christians, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians, etc. who believe accept evolution is a fact?

believe contradicts what God stated in the first two books of Genesis.
It's moot whether evolution contradicts Genesis 1-2 when the two chapters contradict each other.

Isn't this evidence for Satan?
If non-Christians don't believe the Bible, Christian theology, or the existence of satan... why would they think this is evidence for satan? Do you understand how little sense that makes? Everything after this question is irrelevant.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟186,371.00
Marital Status
Private
How do you explain all the contradictions? For example, 'And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.' Genesis 1:3 He made the EMS the first day after creating the universe (heaven and Earth). With big bang, everything is set up in 20 mins which we have no idea what happened. It took God six days to create everything and he rested the final day. How did big bang do all that in 20 mins?

Another is creation ex nihilo becomes universe ex nihilo. Creation from nothing to universe from nothing.

Aren't these contradictions? Aren't they all contradictions?

If they are all contradictions, then isn't that evidence for Satan? They could not be coincidences.
No.

Your examples - light, heaven, earth, big bang, days, etc. - focuses on things and events that involve the physical layer of reality. As a Buddhist, I'd rather focus on deeper, more fundamental layers of reality. From there, the points you brought up become irrelevant, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
ETA: No scientist would read the Bible and then say, okay, I'll just contradict what it said. They reached their hypothesis on their own. Yet, it ended up contradicting what God said. What could cause that?
One plausible cause, IMO, could be that the bible is simply wrong about these things and that the scientific method is a better way of figuring out how the universe works and how different species came to be.

What I am getting at using Satan that he exists... because we have God created the heavens and Earth from nothing, but evolutionary thinking says it was the big bang which caused it from nothing (before that it was the eternal universe).
It looks like you're mixing up two very different things here. The theory of evolution has to do with, well, evolution, not the origins of the universe.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The proper term is "person who accepts the reality of scientific discoveries and evidence."

Can you explain "reality" when it cannot be observed?

Nothing about evolution requires an increase in size.

This is a decrease in size. Provide some examples of your hypothesis.

Terrific series of Ad Hominems.

Huh?

I'm going to stop here because you've taken what I said out of context and we're getting off track.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Your examples - light, heaven, earth, big bang, days, etc. - focuses on things and events that involve the physical layer of reality. As a Buddhist, I'd rather focus on deeper, more fundamental layers of reality. From there, the points you brought up become irrelevant, IMO.

What does you being a Buddhist have to do with the topic? Non sequitur and irrelevant to the topic>
 
Upvote 0

jamesbond007

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2018
1,080
280
Sacramento
✟118,568.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
One plausible cause, IMO, could be that the bible is simply wrong about these things and that the scientific method is a better way of figuring out how the universe works and how different species came to be.

Not a bad argument, but how does birds from dinosaurs use the scientific method? How did the EMS get created? You have to provide some examples using the scientific method applied to some of the points you are arguing for.

It looks like you're mixing up two very different things here. The theory of evolution has to do with, well, evolution, not the origins of the universe.

Just arguing ToE does not apply to origins is a straw man. Origins is part of evolutionary thinking and history. Regarding ToE, God created adult humans, plants, animals, and living organisms. We found the chicken came before the egg in 2017 because the enzyme on the eggshell can only be produced by ovaries in the hen. This can be shown by experiment. This is a fact now and it backs up the Bible. Does that destroy your hypothesis the Bible is wrong?
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What do you think all the contradictions mean? It can't just be coincidence or due to human nature. These were mainly isolated events/writings during different time periods.

ETA: No scientist would read the Bible and then say, okay, I'll just contradict what it said. They reached their hypothesis on their own. Yet, it ended up contradicting what God said. What could cause that?

A few contradictions I can accept as coincidence, but not everything God wrote. Especially, bad things (I'm being judgmental here). Bad coincidences are not coincidences. That's human nature.
I really think that it comes down to "His ways are not our ways." So often we see that science has to 'catch up to' God. For example, long ago it was written that the stars "sing" to God. Then, not all that long ago, it is leaned that each star emits it's own unique radio frequency. Is that "singing" as we understand it? Now... but to God?

80-90% of the known universe (depending on who you ask) is believed to be dark matter. Dark Matter is essentially an unknown, or as Space.com states, "a bizarre ingredient that does not emit light or energy." We really don't know what it is. We have a better grasp today than 10 years ago, but nobody REALLY KNOWS what it is and why it is. That's 80-90% of creation that can't be explained by man... think about that. So when it comes to the 10-20% that falls into a more observable category, is THAT all explainable? No... we have plenty of unanswered question just within that 10-20%. So, why would we be surprised if the bible said one thing and man said another? That doesn't mean (or doesn't have to mean) that satan is involved... it simply means you have beings that are NOT GOD trying to understand work that God did... supernatural work. And I will add this... most of the time, those same people won't even consider God in their study. So you have men, who are not gods, who won't even consider the Creator while studying creation... who have come to conclusions that differ from the biblical account.

I think under these circumstances Mr. Bond, I would expect error and contradiction. :)

Blessings.
Ken
 
Upvote 0

comana

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 19, 2005
6,931
3,500
Colorado
✟907,182.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you hope to achieve with this question? You specifically ask non-believers if your story is evidence for the existence of an entity they don’t believe exists. What do you expect the answers to be?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟186,371.00
Marital Status
Private
What does you being a Buddhist have to do with the topic? Non sequitur and irrelevant to the topic>
True, my apologies.

But no, the varying stories - of which there are many additional stories from other traditions - are potential evidences for Satan, Mara, Ahriman, etc. - but are obviously not proofs, therefore they do not convince me that they exist.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.