Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

Phil W said:

This doesn't say anything at all about us inheriting sin or of being charged with another man's sin.


Immaterial to the question.


Our deaths are because of our own sins, not Adam's.

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IF Adam had not sinned and merited death as a consequence of his sin, we as his descendants would not be subject to death today in 2019.

Romans 5:12
[ Adam and Christ ] Therefore as sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned— rsv

Romans 5:18-19
Then as one man’s (Adam's) trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s (Christ's) act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man’s (Adam's) disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s (Christ's) obedience many will be made righteous. rsv

Adam's sin made us God's spiritual enemies.

Romans 5:9-11
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his (Christ's) blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation. rsv

All sins warrant cleansing, but after our deaths it is too late for us to repent or anything else. That is why God has made it possible to be perfect here and now.
Repentance from sin, permanently; the washing of past sins in the blood of Christ at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ; the gift of the Holy Ghost; prayer, study, and fellowship are not meaningless things from God but the ways of those who love God above all else and their neighbors as they love themselves.
If you are waiting for some future cleansing from sin, you are wasting your time.

It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)
"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:27)
The "adversaries" are not getting a second chance.

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You are correct. The adversaries of God will not get a second chance. No person gets a second chance after he dies. If you die as an adversary/enemy of God, you will be condemned to hell.

However, if you die as an imperfect friend of God, you must first be made perfect before you may enter into eternal life with God.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. rsv

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

Only righteous/just people who have been made perfect may enter into God the Father's presence in heaven. So, how is the righteous man made perfect after his physical death? He is made perfect by being subjected to fire and this fire will consume/purge all his attachments to his own will so that he may become one with God's will and be admitted into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all men, as we do to you, 13 so that he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. rsv

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. rsv

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire. rsv

Romans 12:1
I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God—this is a reasonable act of worship for you. rsv

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv

IF a righteous person has not become perfect while on earth, he must be perfected after his death before he may enter into God's presence. There can be no imperfection in heaven.

MDC said:

In other words no and no to my questions. Fruit only identifies what type a tree it is. It doesn’t make the tree what it is. You and others who see your works as meritorious get this backwards. Christ guarantees salvation for all who believe (elect). To not believe this gives evidence that one does not believe the gospel and what it promises in saving sinners.

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A Christian who does not obey God's commandments is an unbeliever.

In order to be a believer, one must also obey God's commandments. Believe is an action word. Disobedience is equated with unbelief.

Hebrews 3:18-19
And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. rsv

A Christian who does not provide for his relatives, especially for his own family, is actually worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. rsv

The demons believe in God. They were not saved because they did not obey God.

James 2:18-24
But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. rsv

Because Abraham believed that God was God, he obeyed God and placed Isaac upon the altar.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

Matthew 7:20-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

If a person claims that Jesus is God but does not obey His commandments, the person does not believe in God. If a person believes in God, he obeys His commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. rsv

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv

1 John 1:6-7
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. rsv

BCsenior said:

Thank you for posting all of those Scriptures ... and there are many more!

May I add that it's all about having the correct heart attitude.
Trying, confessing, repenting, etc. will surely get the job done.
IMO, it's more important than being absolutely perfect, thank God!

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You've bought the Kool-Ade.
If being absolutely obedient to God is not most important, why confess and repent ad-nauseum?

Jan001 said:

IF Adam had not sinned and merited death as a consequence of his sin, we as his descendants would not be subject to death today in 2019.

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Why doesn't that apply to Enoch and Elijah?
They didn't "die".
In fact, neither did Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, as God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Don't make the mistake of confusing "life" with the condition of the vessel.

IF a righteous person has not become perfect while on earth, he must be perfected after his death before he may enter into God's presence. There can be no imperfection in heaven.

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There is no such thing as an imperfect righteous person.
One cancels out the other.

Jan001 said:

Please read the whole chapter of Colossians 3 in context. Here is a small excerpt:

5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. rsv

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Well of course we are to put to death all sinful habits. But it doesn't happen at once neither does one attain sinless perfection either!

And verse 6 refers to the 70th week of Daniel, not the lake of fire!

But notice he is writing to believers(born again saints) and encouraging them to put these things off! If they had already put them off, no need to write!

And you should be more careful when applying "context"

Colossians 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

If in verse 1 is a second case conditional which is better translated "since".

and the wrath cometh on the children of disobedience- which are those who are not "sinners" but those who have refused Christ!

Jan001 said:

Everyone who is baptized by water as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 has been born of water and the Holy Spirit. It is this baptism which makes us reborn spiritually.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. rsv

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This would be incorrect! It is one who has been born naturally (of water- that is a Hebraism) and of the spirit. Jesus evens makes sure it is clarified!

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jan001 said:

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. rsv

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. rsv

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Let us hope your children never disobey once! If you give them teh same love you say God gives us- they are done for!

But you did not see the difference in the two verses! verse 10 says abide in His love.
Verse 6 says abide in Him.

One can abide in Christ and not be perfect. That is called being a disobedient child- but a child none the less!

.

Jan001 said:

It is true that Jesus will be our judge. John 5:22 Our own sins condemn us. Jesus has not once and for all time justified us. We deny Jesus as our Lord and Savior when we sin against His commandments. We lose our justification when we sin against His commandments.

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The Word of God says we have been!

Jan001 said:

Matthew 12:36-37
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. rsv

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

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You left out thoughts! but these are for unbelievers! Believers have passed from judgment to eternal life and Jesus said no one can pull us out of His or Our Fathers hands!

Jan001 said:

We will be judged by our works. Matthew 25:31-46

When a person sins a mortal sin against God's commandments, he has truly rejected the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for his sins. 1 John 5:16-17

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WOW! talk about taking a verse and redefining it! Going back to the roman apostasy to justify people can lose their salvation! Sorry you lack understanding and you live knowing you may or may not be saved.

Jan001 said:

No, God has not already perfected you forever. Do you still sin? If you do, you have not yet been perfected. You still have work to do on yourself!

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

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Take it up with God!

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You confuse perfection with sanctification!

Jan001 said:

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. rsv

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that is one of my life verses! I love this one and pray daily to continue to be transformed as we are commanded here!

Jan001 said:

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. rsv

1 John 2:4-6
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. rsv

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Now study each verse and learn that Phillipians is not salvation and 1 John is not about a believer who stumbles in sin.

Jan001 said:

If a person continues to sin, he is deceiving himself that he is perfect!

Paul's advice is pertinent to this discussion:

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. rsv

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If a person is a child of
god God has already perfeced HImpositionally, noew they are being sanctified so that what they are in position by divine decree they will become more and more in their daily experience. It is that simple. God is forever over being mad at His children for their acts of sin! He judged them all at teh cross!

CharismaticLady said:

I know the scripture you were trying to quote. But you didn't say what the subject was.

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The subject is this: If we who are evil know how to give good things to ur imperfect evil children, how much more will God give us His love for He is not evil and perfect!

Phil W said:

Wouldn't that road be free of sin?
I think so!

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You are of course free to think what you wish- but the Word of God disagrees with you!

John in his epistle wrote this:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is a little word there I want you to memorize: WE !

John is not writing to unbelievers, but to believers and children of god! He did not say them- but WE including HIm.

I guess you think that Peter lost His salvation when Paul had to rebuke him openly for causing dissimulation! And causing others to do so as well!

Phil W said:

Sorry, I, like Paul in Romans 8:2, have been made free of the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Paul was narrating his preconversion failures under the Law.
Not lamenting a present condition.

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Well you have no knowledge of what teh law of sin and death is! I have been also, but I also know I have not yet attained sinless perfection. I keep adhering to Roamns 12:1-2 which was written after this verse>

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Phil W said:

You seem to be unaware of rebirth...of God's seed.
And of the new, divine nature.
Don't make the mistake of confusing "life" with the condition of the vessel.

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No I ma quite aware of rebirth. I have taught soteriology in Bible college many times

See Gods seed in us cannot sin, but teh old man which resurrects every morning to seek ascendancy- has to be put to death daily- that is the seed that can still sin in us. And if we give way to it- God forbid- we have 1 John 1:9

Phil W said:

I'm surprised you think there is some difference between those who sin once a week and those who sin everyday.
They are all sinners!

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Just like you- but you live in denial so you can't admit for fear of losing salvation.

But God makes a huge difference between His children who occasionaly stumble and sin and those who make sin a lifestyle! Sorry you don't.

Phil W said:

If we "have placed out trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus", we also trust that our old selves were eradicated when we joined with Christ in His death burial and resurrection to walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3-7)

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It has been, but your brothers and sisters in Christ still fall to the deception of the old life. Even Paul said we have to die daily to it! YOu appear to wish no mercy on one who fails even once!

Phil W said:

John is addressing those who walk in darkness with this verse.
Those who walk in the light can say they have no sin as there is no sin in the light.

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Well John was walking in darkness when he wrote this according to your eisegesis then! He said WE not then! the personal pronoun WE includes the one writing it!

nolidad said:

You are of course free to think what you wish- but the Word of God disagrees with you!
John in his epistle wrote this:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
There is a little word there I want you to memorize: WE !

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Which "we"?
The "we" who say they have fellowship with God but walk in darkness or the "we" who are walking in light and have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ?
John is talking about two different types of walk: one in darkness and the other in light.
Those walking in darkness cannot say they have no sin.
I personally walk in the light, God, and there is no sin in God.

John is not writing to unbelievers, but to believers and children of god! He did not say them- but WE including HIm.

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Agreed.
But he is talking about two different kinds of men; those who walk in the light, God, and those who walk in darkness, sin.

I guess you think that Peter lost His salvation when Paul had to rebuke him openly for causing dissimulation! And causing others to do so as well!

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No more so that the thousands of other Jews who still adhered to the Law of Moses. (Acts 21:20

Well you have no knowledge of what teh law of sin and death is!

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It was the description Paul used to describe the cause of his failure to adhere perfectly to the Mosaic Law while he was still in the flesh.
A law he was freed from by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)

I have been also,...

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Been what?
You lost me there.

but I also know I have not yet attained sinless perfection. I keep adhering to Romans 12:1-2 which was written after this verse.

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If you will "turn from" sin, you will be an ex-sinner.
God gives the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who turn from sin.

nolidad said:

No I ma quite aware of rebirth. I have taught soteriology in Bible college many times

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Why has your teaching allowed for an old man to coexist with a new man who is born from different seed?

See Gods seed in us cannot sin, but teh old man which resurrects every morning to seek ascendancy- has to be put to death daily- that is the seed that can still sin in us. And if we give way to it- God forbid- we have 1 John 1:9

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I guess you are unaware of the death of the old man at its immersion into the death of Christ. (Rom 6:3-7)
Verse 7 tell the outcome of that death...freedom from sin.
I am a new creature with a new nature now...thanks be to God.
I have been empowered to keep that old man dead.

nolidad said:

Just like you- but you live in denial so you can't admit for fear of losing salvation.

But God makes a huge difference between His children who occasionaly stumble and sin and those who make sin a lifestyle! Sorry you don't.

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God's children don't bring forth evil fruit, and grape vines don't bring forth figs.

It has been, but your brothers and sisters in Christ still fall to the deception of the old life. Even Paul said we have to die daily to it! YOu appear to wish no mercy on one who fails even once!

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Were it "once", the grace of God and Jesus' advocacy is available to all who wish to serve the real God.
But there constant walk in the darkness betrays your scenario.
They aren't "brothers in Christ".

Well John was walking in darkness when he wrote this according to your eisegesis then! He said WE not then! the personal pronoun WE includes the one writing it!

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He also said "if".
IF we walk in darkness we cannot say we have fellowship with God...nor that we have no sin.
IF we walk in the light-God, we can say we have no sin because the blood of Christ has washed the sin away.
Keep walking in the light!

Phil W said:

Were it "once", the grace of God and Jesus' advocacy is available to all who wish to serve the real God.
But there constant walk in the darkness betrays your scenario.
They aren't "brothers in Christ".

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You remind me of the religious leader in this parable:

Luke 18:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You need to beware! You are treading on dangerous ground calling the children of God not brothers and sisters!

Phil W said:

Why has your teaching allowed for an old man to coexist with a new man who is born from different seed?

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Because it is Scripture, and not eh teachings of such as Pelagius,

Phil W said:

Which "we"?
The "we" who say they have fellowship with God but walk in darkness or the "we" who are walking in light and have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ?
John is talking about two different types of walk: one in darkness and the other in light.
Those walking in darkness cannot say they have no sin.
I personally walk in the light, God, and there is no sin in God.

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I bet you win every time you play twister- for you do twist well! The we is John and the believers he was writing to!

Well I will leave you to your delusions.

This is an odd prayer I will poray- That God removes the blinders and show you how sinful you still are! You have not perfect knowledge so you still walk in darkness in areas God has not exposed in your life yet! And when you see that you still sin- may God show you His never ending mercy and you leave this salvation by works which is another gospel!

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

nolidad said:

You remind me of the religious leader in this parable:
Luke 18:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You need to beware! You are treading on dangerous ground calling the children of God not brothers and sisters!

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Please be aware that Jesus is addressing OT folks about OT ways.
They were all still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, so none were yet righteous.
That changed after Christ's resurrection.
It is now up to you to prove that those manifesting that they are children of the devil are also children of God. (1 John 3:9-10)

Phil W said:

Please be aware that Jesus is addressing OT folks about OT ways.
They were all still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, so none were yet righteous.
That changed after Christ's resurrection.
It is now up to you to prove that those manifesting that they are children of the devil are also children of God. (1 John 3:9-10)

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As you appear to be as well!

Jesus is not your Savior- your "perfectness" is your savior. All that you write says Jesus just got you in the door and now you are maintaining you r salvation by not sinning any more . You are still under the law!

d taylor said:

So your faith is in keeping the commandments and not in Jesus for eternal life salvation.

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y
His reply showed otherwise.

Also note: if anyone CLAIMS to be walking in the light, and constantly keeps transgressing the commands of Jesus, then the truth is not in them, and they have no light. So even though not saved by obeying Jesus in the way you posted,
if someone CLAIMS to be saved, but is obeying the enemy of Jesus instead of obeying Jesus, then they are not saved.

BCsenior said:

I've been somewhat puzzled by this for some time now ...

John 14:23-24, NKJV
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
He who does not love Me does not keep (obey) My words"

Jesus' several other verses are a given, which also say:
Those who love ME will obey My commandments!

But, doesn't John 14:23-24 put obedience to God's word
as a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit?
Not only receiving the Holy Spirit INSIDE, but all Three of the Triune God.

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I see no difference between keeping God's word, Jesus' commandments, and turning from sin.
Are they not the same thing?
Peter said, on the day of Pentecost..."Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost", in Acts 2:38.
This verse is the basis for my belief and my post.