Debunk this . . . if you can . . .

com7fy8

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(Do you think it might be a sham? :))

With as much respect as I'm capable of mustering under the circumstances, this is a really bad policy idea.
But you are welcome to say why you think this, or feel this.

My personal take is no matter what policy there is, trying to control politicians, their character will effect what they are capable of doing.

No law can make people love.
 
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Halbhh

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$457 Billion, since the table is in thousands. Sorry, my fault if not clear.
Federal taxes are independent of local taxes, and whether a city is well managed, but Ive learned by experience not to assume Trump gets things right.
 
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com7fy8

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How can you debunk something that is a fantasy??
My opinion is you can debunk it, by pointing out how it is a fantasy.

For example, I wrote that voters are equal and so each one should have equal say about what is done with money. But if their character is not equal, then how can they be equally reliable to vote for what is good? So, if I am right about this, this would help debunk my idea indeed as being a fantasy.

But, of course, others would use another word, than "debunk". But I think your word "fantasy" is fine :)
 
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Ophiolite

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But you are welcome to say why you think this, or feel this..
You responded, apparently, to two posts, so I shall assume this was also directed to me. I don't think it is a sham.
By challenging people to attempt to debunk it you were implicitly suggesting that your idea was a sham. This was because your word choice was inappropriate for the actual intent of your message. I corrected your error as a freely offered piece of lexical education. To lighten the mood and emphasise the point I asked if you thought it was a sham and added the smiley to show it was not a serious question.
 
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Halbhh

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Right now, in the United States, there seems to be a fifty-fifty split between Republicans and Democrats. Since in America all voters are considered equal, I think it could be fair that voters of each party can have say about their tax money.

So, using our present example > Hillary lost, but she got about fifty-percent of the votes; and so the Democratic voters should have use of fifty percent of tax money through candidates whom they have succeeded in electing into office, while the Republicans have about fifty percent of money to control.

They would not be allowed to spend their money on just anything.

Health care spending would have a minimum percentage. So would defense and education and some other items. But each party is authorized to control a certain amount of tax money, depending on how many votes they got for their presidential candidate.

This way, for one example, Democrats can vote their money into a health care bill which does what they want. But Republicans must use their health care money. Or unused money is automatically forfeited to the other party.

:)
I thought over a somewhat similar idea. Where people individually could signal by allocate either a portion or alternatively all of their taxes they pay to various federal agencies in an blended average. Or to varied baskets of allocations, prepared by a variety of groups (which could help avoid having some small agencies suddenly get 1,000 times the funding in one year). And then have Congress budgeting blended with it -- e.g. averaged with weighting -- with the taxpayer allocation. The two averaged together, perhaps the taxpayer allocation revealed after Congress is finished budgeting, then the two averaged after Congress, so congress can't just wipe it out without more legislation. Of course congress could act later, making special supplemental allocations.
 
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Desk trauma

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Right now, in the United States, there seems to be a fifty-fifty split between Republicans and Democrats. Since in America all voters are considered equal...

If this is the basis of your post I need not trouble my self with any more of it as this is totally false. Votes are anything but equal in this country.
 
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hislegacy

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My opinion is you can debunk it, by pointing out how it is a fantasy.

For example, I wrote that voters are equal and so each one should have equal say about what is done with money. But if their character is not equal, then how can they be equally reliable to vote for what is good? So, if I am right about this, this would help debunk my idea indeed as being a fantasy.

But, of course, others would use another word, than "debunk". But I think your word "fantasy" is fine :)

You want to change the country from a representative republic to everyone casting a vote on every spending issue?

And that is not a fantasy?
 
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hislegacy

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Right now, in the United States, there seems to be a fifty-fifty split between Republicans and Democrats.

You don't have to go beyond the first sentence to "debunk" the theory.

You completely miss independent voters - and registered voters are not 50/50.

Party Affiliation

Everything past this error falls to pieces.
 
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Gene2memE

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*Cracks knuckles and neck*

Well, you asked for it.

Right now, in the United States, there seems to be a fifty-fifty split between Republicans and Democrats.

Voter affiliation as an independent (favouring neither party) is at or near record highs, between a range of about 38% to 46% depending on the week, and averaging about 41.3% since the beginning of 2019.

At the same time, 27% of the electorate identify as Republican and 30% as Democrat.

Source: Party Affiliation

Since in America all voters are considered equal, I think it could be fair that voters of each party can have say about their tax money.

Kind of, but not really. Under the electoral college, votes from different states are weighted differently. So, if you live in California, there are 55 electoral votes spread across 40 million people. In Wyoming, there are three electoral votes spread across 560,000 people. So, each person's vote in Wyoming's carries about 3.5 times the weight of each person's vote in California.

Source: Population vs. Electoral Votes - Fairvote

So, using our present example > Hillary lost, but she got about fifty-percent of the votes;

Not quite. Hillary got 48.2% of the popular vote and 227 of the 531 electoral college votes (42.8%). She carried 21 of the 52 states/electoral districts (DC and the 2 Maine districts), which is 40.3%.

Meanwhile, Donal Trump got 46% of the popular vote, 57.2% of the electoral college and 59.7% of the states/districts.

Source: 2016 United States presidential election - Wikipedia

So, NEITHER got 50% of the popular vote.

and so the Democratic voters should have use of fifty percent of tax money through candidates whom they have succeeded in electing into office, while the Republicans have about fifty percent of money to control.

Counties that voted Democrat in 2016 accounted for 64% of US GDP in 2016, whereas counties that voted Republican in 2016 accounted for 36% of US GDP.

On that basis, the "50%" of people that voted Democrat in 2016 should have 64% of the tax money, and the "50%" that voted Republican should have 34% of the tax money.

Source: Another Clinton-Trump divide: High-output America vs low-output America

They would not be allowed to spend their money on just anything.

Health care spending would have a minimum percentage. So would defense and education and some other items. But each party is authorized to control a certain amount of tax money, depending on how many votes they got for their presidential candidate.

This way madness lies. This renders large scale national projects (like healthcare reform, or trans-national infrastructre) near impossible.

This way, for one example, Democrats can vote their money into a health care bill which does what they want. But Republicans must use their health care money. Or unused money is automatically forfeited to the other party.

Do you want pork barrelling and perverse incentive spending, because that's how you get them!

Requiring a budgetary amount to be spend, or be deducted/forfeited, is about the most boneheaded thing you can do with a public budget. It guarantees needless spending and other waste, simply to ensure that allocation levels are retained, or "spending on spending" schemes.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Right now, in the United States, there seems to be a fifty-fifty split between Republicans and Democrats. Since in America all voters are considered equal, I think it could be fair that voters of each party can have say about their tax money.

So, using our present example > Hillary lost, but she got about fifty-percent of the votes; and so the Democratic voters should have use of fifty percent of tax money through candidates whom they have succeeded in electing into office, while the Republicans have about fifty percent of money to control.

They would not be allowed to spend their money on just anything.

Health care spending would have a minimum percentage. So would defense and education and some other items. But each party is authorized to control a certain amount of tax money, depending on how many votes they got for their presidential candidate.

This way, for one example, Democrats can vote their money into a health care bill which does what they want. But Republicans must use their health care money. Or unused money is automatically forfeited to the other party.

:)

Right....why try to compromise and reach middle ground when we can just divide things further?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you understand about this :)

I'm not sure what you're saying....

Are you suggesting that if Democrats don't care about defense....they can vote to let the Republicans foot the bill for it? Likewise if Republicans don't want to fund welfare programs....they can leave it to the Democrats?
 
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com7fy8

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I'm not sure what you're saying....

Are you suggesting that if Democrats don't care about defense....they can vote to let the Republicans foot the bill for it? Likewise if Republicans don't want to fund welfare programs....they can leave it to the Democrats?
First, I just thought of the idea that the U.S. has two parties who can't get together about things, but they could at least each get a fair share of the tax money, so each group could do what good they can with what they have. And a way to decide how much each group gets would be by giving each group tax money in the amount which matches how many votes they get.

And ones have "debunked" this in a number of ways. I just found the thought interesting, but not what I would commit to. So, I was interested in why others would not buy it.

Now, for me, for one thing, I forgot how there could be independent voters in the mix. If they really had a choice, they might not want either Republican or Democratic candidates managing anything, but they could be voting for what they consider the "lesser of two evils", not really what they want, even though they voted either Republican or Democrat.

So . . . about if Democrats care about defense > I would say they do. And probably there are those who care more than others. Ones might feel it would work better to take care of people, and this could help the country to be more safe . . . versus investing large amounts directly in defense weapons. And do things to help other countries, versus getting isolated just in self-protection. I don't know individual Democratic candidates well enough to know how each one might approach this. But I would not be surprised if Democrats can be highly varied in how they would approach defense by weapons spending, versus mainly diplomatic assistance to other countries and, of course, a combination of both.

But my opinion is Democrats tend to favor, at least in theory, the approach of benefitting Americans so the country is stronger and healthier as a people, while also benefitting other countries; and they would consider this the best way to defend this country and help others to prosper and be safe. Education would be big, for this. But in practice > of course, ones into Christian morals would have issues with if Democrats really are into what is really best for people.

So, my proposed idea could work like this > Democrats would get money and Republicans would. And each could use theirs how they chose, for defense. They could work together, or at least each could get something done, on their own. But each would be required to spend a certain amount on defense, in any case; or else, if either group did not, their defense money would be forfeited to the other group to use.

They could barter their funds. For example, Republicans could let Democrats handle their funds for education and welfare, in exchange for Democrats leaving their defense funds in the hands of the Republicans.

Now . . . about if Republicans don't want to fund welfare programs > in my offered system, not really what I am committed to but just offering for discussion > I don't know how welfare would be handled. Possibly there would be no welfare, but education would be developed so there would be no or much less need for it.

I guess, though, there would need to be welfare. So > Republicans would get tax money in an amount to match the number of votes their candidates get, and Democrats would likewise get a percentage of money along with the percentage of votes they got . . . for welfare. Then Republicans might use welfare money more with an educational focus, maybe, while Democrats might give money directly to parents. Each could decide how they invest their money.

For an example, Republican money might go to food in schools, for students and for parents who do time helping in schools, in order to make sure money does help people, instead of being available for drugs and TV. Meanwhile Democrats might give funds directly to parents . . . so they have the opportunity to do good things for themselves, which school food alone would not be enough to do.

They could complement each other.

But what I think really works right is developing a consensus after everyone has offered what they understand. Use everyone as a resource. Debating, then, is more of a discussion, versus ones merely trying to approve themselves.
 
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