Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

BCsenior said:

Why don't you speak to what you have been shown? ... 2 Peter 1:9
It clearly says PAST SINS.

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Yes he was purged!

But as this verse is not soteriological but about living life daily- it is not germaine.

2Pe 1:3

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Then he goes into adding all the virtues so we can live godly lives that match our position in Christ!

Once mixing up our experience in Christ with our position in Christ leaves one thinking that God has not forgiven all sins- or that teh forgiveness is conditioned on a measure of obedience!

BCsenior said:

Nice choice of reference verses!
Both letters were written ONLY to "the faithful" BACs ... NOT to the unfaithful BACs.

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Oh so Paul had a secret list like Santa Claus to know who was naughty and nice??? He wrote this to teh Church without exception!

He even wrote the same in Corinth- and yet He railed on that faithful in Christ church! As long a deceivers will deceive people into thinking that faithful = doing works- men will focus on themselves instead of Christ!

Do you know that Jesus will never cast you out?

Do you know that your salvation is not even in your hands?

Do you know you cannot even get your hands or heart on your own salvation.

Do you know when God the Father looks at you He sees only Jesus?

Do you know your life is hidden until the day of redemption.

Do you know when you sin- it is no longer you that sins, but sin that dwells in the old man whom God has declared dead and gone positionally?

Do you know that only believers can truly be schizophrenic and have multiple personalities? The old man who is rendered dead and the new man who is being conformed into the image of Christ?

Do you know that you are a new creature in Christ and that the new creature is incapapbel of sin? Sin comes when we allow the old man out !

nolidad said:

I can only tell you what the word of God says about that deception:

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The verb "have" in we have is the present active indicative. Meaning if we say we do not sin.

You need to go to God

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I hope you realize that John is addressing two very different kinds of walks, kinds of men, in 1 John 1.
Verse 8 is addressing those who walk in darkness, sin.
They cannot say they have no sin.
However, those walking in the light, God, can say they have no sin because all their sin was washed away by the blood of Christ.

nolidad said:

I have a new heart!
I have been given eternal life- nort probational eternal life.
I do not believe grace is a license to sin.
I believe one who issaved will prodice good works.

But I also know that our flesh is still alive and active and seeks to gain the ascendancy and in all believers lives does so at times.

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Why don't you kill the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), and be reborn...raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)
Don't allow your skin to dictate your eventual judgement.

MDC said:

So Christ guaranteed no ones salvation according to your doctrine rt? Is Christ alone sufficient to save sinners?

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Christ saves all the people who are knowing, loving, and serving Him at the time of their death. Christ does not save the people who are not knowing, loving, and serving Him at the time of their death. John 14:6

Christ desires that all people be saved and so He died as a ransom for all people. However. His death and resurrection gives us hope, not a guarantee, of eternal life. In order for Him to appoint us to eternal life, we must crucify our sinful passions and desires and imitate Christ's obedience to His Father's commandments until our death.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

Titus 3:7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. rsv

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form he (Jesus) humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. rsv

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? rsv

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv

James 1:19-25
Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law (law of Christ Galatians 6:2), the law of liberty (not the burdensome law of Moses), and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. rsv

Matthew 10:37-39
He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. rsv

Colossians 3:4-6
When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. rsv

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. rsv

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

BCsenior said:

Welcome, Jan ...
Are there many Catholics who are into the word like you are?
I do disagree with you on baptism, however.
E.G. It doesn't remove sins.

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I am sure there are many Catholics who love the Word and immerse themselves in it.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. rsv

Baptism as commanded by Jesus according to Matthew 28:19-20 does indeed remove/forgive/cleanse sins. It is this baptism of Jesus which makes us His disciples.

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe (obey) all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” rsv

Ephesians 5:25-26
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word (baptism as commanded by Christ in Matthew 28-19-20), rsv

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name (as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20).’ rsv

Phil W said:

Where is "original sin" in the bible?
And why is God suddenly charging us with another man's sin?

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Adam's sin is called original sin (the first sin of mankind). All mankind inherited Adam's sin and so it was impossible for any person to enter into the third heaven to be with God after death. 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 That is why the righteous man Lazarus was in a place called Abraham's bosom instead of heaven after he died. At this point in time, Jesus Christ had not yet died on the cross to free mankind from Adam's sin. Luke 16:19-26

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through (Adam's) sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—

Romans 5:15-17
For if many died through one man’s (Adam) trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one (Adam) trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of one man’s (Adam) trespass, death reigned through that one man (Adam), much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. rsv

Genesis 3:24
He (God) drove out the man (Adam); and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. rsv

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven but he (Jesus) who descended from heaven, the Son of man. rsv

Jesus states that no human person has yet ascended into the third heaven to be with God and that is because Jesus had not yet died on the cross to redeem mankind from Adam's sin.

Where in the bible are different kinds of rebellion against God assigned differing punishments?

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Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (imprisonment-Catholics call this place Purgatory: a temporary place to atone for all unrepented not mortal sins after one's death) and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. (the permanent eternal place for all people who die with unrepented mortal sins) rsv 1 John 5:16-17

A righteous person cannot be approved to be admitted into heaven until he has atoned for all of his sins. Christ's sacrifice removed the guilt of both his repented sins and Adam's sin and this makes it possible for him to inherit eternal life but it does not remove the necessity for the righteous person to atone for the you reap what you sow obligation of Christ's law. Ezekiel 33:12-20

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. rsv

2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. rsv



Example showing that Imprisonment/Purgatory is the place for atonement of a righteous person's sins after death:

Matthew 5:25-26
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv

2 Corinthians 9:6
The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. rsv

Mark 12:40
who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.” rsv

Luke 6:41
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? rsv

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. rsv

A "sin unto death" is one a man doesn't repent of.

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A sin unto death is a mortal sin that a person does not repent of before his death. Most righteous people die with not mortal sins on their souls. They must be cleansed of these sins by the purging fire of God before they are admitted into heaven.

1 Corinthians 3"11-15
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv

Phil W said:

Why don't you kill the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), and be reborn...raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)
Don't allow your skin to dictate your eventual judgement.

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I am reborn and have my life hidden with Christ!

All my sins were forgiven. And when I do fail- God gave His children 1 John 1:9

To paraphrase Gods inspired word- the only one who can condemn me is the one who once and for all time justified me!

Sin no longer dictates ones judgement! Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world!
One does not go to hell because they are a sinner- they go to hell because they rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins, so they must pay the price themselves.

God has perfected me FOREVER!
God the father drew me to Jesus and Jesus promised He would for no reason cast me out!
I know that nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus!
I was given eternal life- not temporary eternal life (what is that anyway)

I am sorry your concept of God is so distorted by a faulty understanding of His Word!

Just remember when you think you are sinlessly perfect now:

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is in the present active indicative. Someone has taught you very
wrongly

Phil W said:

I hope you realize that John is addressing two very different kinds of walks, kinds of men, in 1 John 1.
Verse 8 is addressing those who walk in darkness, sin.
They cannot say they have no sin.
However, those walking in the light, God, can say they have no sin because all their sin was washed away by the blood of Christ.

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You can do all the spiritual gymnastics you want to try to be accountable to this verse, but JOhn was inspired to write WE which includes the believers he was writing to as well as himself!

Yes when a child of God walks in teh light He is incapable of sinning. When he walks in the flesh- he walks in darkness. Then the Holy Spirit in love convicts and the believer applies 1 JOhn 1:9!

Altering the word of God by reinterpretation is a bad thing!

Jan001 said:

Adam's sin is called original sin (the first sin of mankind). All mankind inherited Adam's sin and so it was impossible for any person to enter into the third heaven to be with God after death. 2 Corinthians 12:1-3

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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians+12:1-3&version=RSV
This doesn't say anything at all about us inheriting sin or of being charged with another man's sin.

That is why the righteous man Lazarus was in a place called Abraham's bosom instead of heaven after he died. At this point in time, Jesus Christ had not yet died on the cross to free mankind from Adam's sin. Luke 16:19-26

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Immaterial to the question.

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death through (Adam's) sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—

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Our deaths are because of our own sins, not Adam's.

A sin unto death is a mortal sin that a person does not repent of before his death. Most righteous people die with not mortal sins on their souls. They must be cleansed of these sins by the purging fire of God before they are admitted into heaven.

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All sins warrant cleansing, but after our deaths it is too late for us to repent or anything else.
That is why God has made it possible to be perfect here and now.
Repentance from sin, permanently; the washing of past sins in the blood of Christ at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ; the gift of the Holy Ghost; prayer, study, and fellowship are not meaningless things from God but the ways of those who love God above all else and their neighbors as they love themselves.
If you are waiting for some future cleansing from sin, you are wasting your time.

It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)
"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:27)
The "adversaries" are not getting a second chance.

nolidad said:

I am reborn and have my life hidden with Christ!

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Amen and beautiful!

All my sins were forgiven. And when I do fail- God gave His children 1 John 1:9

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Wait a minute...you are driving on both sides of the road here.
If you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God, who is committing the sins?
That isn't the way of those who walk in the light-God.
If you are still walking in darkness-sin, you have no fellowship with God (1 John 1:6)

To paraphrase Gods inspired word- the only one who can condemn me is the one who once and for all time justified me!

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God doesn't justify those who hate Him.
He justifies those who have turned from sin to serve only Him.

Sin no longer dictates ones judgement! Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world!
One does not go to hell because they are a sinner- they go to hell because they rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins, so they must pay the price themselves.

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And who is it that rejects Christ and His sufferings?
They who continue to spit on Him with their rebellion to Him.
Sinners!

God has perfected me FOREVER!
God the father drew me to Jesus and Jesus promised He would for no reason cast me out!
I know that nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus!
I was given eternal life- not temporary eternal life (what is that anyway)

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If you were perfect you wouldn't commit any sin.

I am sorry your concept of God is so distorted by a faulty understanding of His Word!

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My understanding of the word has allowed me to live without sinning.
Has your's?

Just remember when you think you are sinlessly perfect now:
1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
That is in the present active indicative. Someone has taught you very
wrongly

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Were you ever baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins?
Weren't you "without sin" when you left the waters of baptism?
John is addressing two very different kinds of men and their very different kinds of walk, in 1 John 1.
One kind of man says he has fellowship with God but doesn't because he walks in darkness-sin.
He cannot say he has no sin.
The other walks in the light-God and has had all his sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
He can say he has no sin.
So, which kind of walk are you experiencing?

nolidad said:

You can do all the spiritual gymnastics you want to try to be accountable to this verse, but JOhn was inspired to write WE which includes the believers he was writing to as well as himself!

Yes when a child of God walks in teh light He is incapable of sinning. When he walks in the flesh- he walks in darkness. Then the Holy Spirit in love convicts and the believer applies 1 JOhn 1:9!

Altering the word of God by reinterpretation is a bad thing!

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You may have missed the verses about the death of the old man (Rom 6:3-7) when you mentioned walking in the flesh.
Those in Christ walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. (Rom 8:1)
Quit walking in darkness!
That is called repentance from sin.
Start walking in the light, God, the Spirit, on the narrow path...in fellowship with God.

Jan001 said:

Christ saves all the people who are knowing, loving, and serving Him at the time of their death. Christ does not save the people who are not knowing, loving, and serving Him at the time of their death. John 14:6

Christ desires that all people be saved and so He died as a ransom for all people. However. His death and resurrection gives us hope, not a guarantee, of eternal life. In order for Him to appoint us to eternal life, we must crucify our sinful passions and desires and imitate Christ's obedience to His Father's commandments until our death.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

Titus 3:7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. rsv

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form he (Jesus) humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. rsv

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? rsv

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv

James 1:19-25
Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law (law of Christ Galatians 6:2), the law of liberty (not the burdensome law of Moses), and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. rsv

Matthew 10:37-39
He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. rsv

Colossians 3:4-6
When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. rsv

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. rsv

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

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In other words no and no to my questions. Fruit only identifies what type a tree it is. It doesn’t make the tree what it is. You and others who see your works as meritorious get this backwards. Christ guarantees salvation for all who believe (elect). To not believe this gives evidence that one does not believe the gospel and what it promises in saving sinners.

Phil W said:

Why don't you kill the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), and be reborn...raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)
Don't allow your skin to dictate your eventual judgement.

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Umm you have it completely backwards. One cannot go against his natural disposition. Unregenerate men walk according to their natural self, their sinful flesh. Regenerate believers walk according to the Spirit, and by nature now desire the things of God and live by faith in the Son of God. One has to be born anew first to kill the lust of the flesh. Do you seek to be forgiven of your sinful self?

MDC said:

Umm you have it completely backwards.
One cannot go against his natural disposition. Unregenerate men walk according to their natural self, their sinful flesh. Regenerate believers walk according to the Spirit, and by nature now desire the things of God and live by faith in the Son of God. One has to be born anew first to kill the lust of the flesh. Do you seek to be forgiven of your sinful self?

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I'm not sure why you think I have things backwards.
Romans 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
Death, then resurrection: crucifixion with Christ, then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Frankly, they happen almost simultaneously at our water baptism.

BCsenior said:

Gee, that's wonderful.
Except ... the NT tells you in several verses: "BE PERFECT!"
Need me to dig out those verses for you?

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Nope! but do you even know what the word means there?

Andf as scripture cannot contradict itself how do you reconcile you r opinion here of livcing sinlessly perfect with this verse:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

God inspired both and cannnot lie!

Maybe what you should learn is the difference between positional truths and experiential truths.

Positionally I am perfect forever already, experientially I am still in the process of being made holy!

So I see the truth of both without one contradicting the other!

Phil W said:

You may have missed the verses about the death of the old man (Rom 6:3-7) when you mentioned walking in the flesh.
Those in Christ walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. (Rom 8:1)
Quit walking in darkness!
That is called repentance from sin.
Start walking in the light, God, the Spirit, on the narrow path...in fellowship with God.

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Well you seem to forget that there are two repentance- the one that gives us salvation once for all and then the need to repent of sins we may commit in our walk in the Lord!

You imply that as soon as one gets saved they no longer sin! That is so foolish as to defy description!

Once again I remind you of Gods word:

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You say we are supposed to have no sin--- God says the above.