"When will these things happen?"

mister rogers · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

The chronology is pretty clear here. The first thing that is required, one must first see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place.

Then once seeing it, at that very moment in time, them which be in Judea are to flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This might be like your house catching on fire, and that the fire is raging out of control. You can either try and get out of there pronto like while you still can, or you could try and grab your personal belongings first, thus taking a chance of perishing in the fire.

Was it like this when the Romans set up their idols in the temple, that those in Judea were swiftly fleeing to the mountains once they seen this with their own eyes? In order to have seen it with their own eyes, they would have to be in the same vicinity the Romans were at the time when they were doing this.

After all, the text doesn't say, if you do not see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place, if you are in Judea, you are to still then flee to the mountains. It clearly says when you see this.

Still think info about Titus and his army is the better. The parallel account in Luke says when they see Jerusalem surrounded (before the AOD) they need to leave. History shows Christians did leave before it's invasion (Hmm, because they believed this prophecy not to be distant future?). Obviously if there were any more by the time of the AOD, they would need to find a way out at that time at least.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, it mentions an abomination of desolation. An AOD had zero to do with what happened to the temple in 70 AD. But if you think it did, what exactly was the AOD then?

Luke interprets it as "Armies surrounding Jerusalem", or at the very least, in Comparing Luke's account to Matt & Mark's, the timing of the AOD is synonymous with Jersualem being surrounded by armies.

My Bet is that Luke's interpretation is correct.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
The 1st warning was to flee when Jerusalem was being surrounded and indeed the church did get out of there.

Only preterists believe that.

The odd statement by Jesus was that they should pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath or in winter seems to indicate that there would actually be a time of flight when the abomination of desolation takes place.

It also seems to indicate it would not be a modern time where you could just pack up the SUV and split.... Who would care if it happened in winter or the Sabbath today?
Nobody. Such timing would be irrelevant and of no concern.

The Jews have prepared everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not performed since 70AD.

Except for that pesky detail of resurrecting a demonstrably levitical priesthood... but they don't seem to care about that too much...

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Luke interprets it as "Armies surrounding Jerusalem", or at the very least, in Comparing Luke's account to Matt & Mark's, the timing of the AOD is synonymous with Jersualem being surrounded by armies.

My Bet is that Luke's interpretation is correct.

Jesus also says this----spoken of by Daniel the prophet---(whoso readeth, let him understand)

And where do most typically go in Daniel?

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

But let's suppose one is living during Jesus' time, except it is not 70 AD yet. How would going to Daniel 9:26 alone help them to better understand what Jesus was meaning here? Is one to believe the following explains it all---- and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined-----and that there is nowhere else in Daniel, concerning this AOD, that Jesus was also wanting to connect to this?

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
It also seems to indicate it would not be a modern time where you could just pack up the SUV and split.... Who would care if it happened in winter or the Sabbath today?
Nobody. Such timing would be irrelevant and of no concern.

There is always the chance Jesus wasn't meaning these things in a literal sense. And in a case like that, it doesn't have to apply to the first century, it can apply to a time such as we are living in. But if He was though, meaning in a literal sense, then yes, some of the things He said make way better sense if applying it to a the time they were living in, rather than a future time, such as these days we are living in, as you have shown above.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
Jesus also says this----spoken of by Daniel the prophet---(whoso readeth, let him understand)

And where do most typically go in Daniel?

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

But let's suppose one is living during Jesus' time, except it is not 70 AD yet. How would going to Daniel 9:26 alone help them to better understand what Jesus was meaning here? Is one to believe the following explains it all---- and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined-----and that there is nowhere else in Daniel, concerning this AOD, that Jesus was also wanting to connect to this?

Why would anyone "typically" go to Dan 9:26 for information on the Abomination of Desolation spoken of By Daniel?

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Why would anyone "typically" go to Dan 9:26 for information on the Abomination of Desolation spoken of By Daniel?

I'm mainly concluding that based on discussions in the past with partial Preterists I was discussing these things with. Most of them seemed convinced that Jesus was only thinking of Daniel 9:26 when He mentioned Daniel in the Discourse.

And if someone such as me would try to argue using also Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, their argument would be that only Daniel 9:26 has any relevancy to what Jesus was referring to. It's probably not the case with all partial Preterists, but it seemed to be the case with the ones I recall discussing some of these things with in this past. These discussions were mainly on another site though.

Willie T · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Why would anyone "typically" go to Dan 9:26 for information on the Abomination of Desolation spoken of By Daniel?

Maybe the mention of the word, "desolation" in both places?

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

Willie T said:
Maybe the mention of the word, "desolation" in both places?

That's a good point.

I definitely believe such a correlation harmonizes Luke's Olivet Discourse with Matt and Mark's:..

This passage in Luke:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

is EXACTLY parallel to THIS passage in Matthew:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Which is exactly parallel to this passage in Mark:

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

In all three synoptic accounts of this ONE discourse by Jesus we have:
The Same "WHEN"
The Same "Desolation"
The same "Then" time to "Flee" Jerusalem
The same "Woe to the Pregnant/Nursing" in the same "Those Days"

In all three accounts, Jesus is foretelling of the Same event.

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
the timing of the AOD is synonymous with Jersualem being surrounded by armies.

I have noted others concluding the same, yet I don't see the logic in this whatsoever.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

If we combine these accounts, it might look something like this----When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, standing where it ought not, (whoso readeth, let him understand) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

But we also have the following to consider.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

I can see applying this to the desolation part. I can't see applying this also to the abomination part. The latter is just not making any sense to me.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
I'm mainly concluding that based on discussions in the past with partial Preterists I was discussing these things with. Most of them seemed convinced that Jesus was only thinking of Daniel 9:26 when He mentioned Daniel in the Discourse.

And if someone such as me would try to argue using also Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, their argument would be that only Daniel 9:26 has any relevancy to what Jesus was referring to. It's probably not the case with all partial Preterists, but it seemed to be the case with the ones I recall discussing some of these things with in this past. These discussions were mainly on another site though.

Well, Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies".

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
I can see applying this to the desolation part. I can't see applying this also to the abomination part. The latter is just not making any sense to me.

See my post #29 directly above yours, and let me know how you arrive at the notion (or more importantly How the disciples would have arrived at the notion) that Luke's "Time to flee Judea" in "those days" of "woe to the pregnant and nursing", And Matt & Marks "Time to Flee Judea" in "those days" of "woe to the pregnant and nursing" are NOT the same "time to flee Judea in those days of woe to the pregnant and nursing" and are instead unique, totally unrelated "times to flee Judea in those days of woe to the pregnant and nursing" separated by multiple millennia?

That makes no sense to me.

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
In all three accounts, Jesus is foretelling of the Same event.

This seems to be the case, yet I don't see anything pertaining to 70 AD that explains the abomination part.

bdelugma
bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
from bdelussw - bdelusso 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination

Rev 17:4, Rev 17:5 Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 16:15, Rev 21:27---are the passages in the NT where this same Greek word is used. And when comparing to Rev 17:4, Rev 17:5, and Rev 21:27, and the way abomination is used in those passages, nothing that occurred in 70 AD appears to match the sense it is being used in these other passages. I have never even heard of a surrounding army being an abomination. I can't seem to find any such example in the OT nor the NT, where armies surrounding something, that this is an abomination.

Willie T · Jul 23, 2019

May I suggest two books? Both are by David Chilton, and the first was written as a prelude to the second (though you can read the second without having read the first. They address these things in surprising detail.

1. Paradise Restored
2. Days of Vengeance

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
See my post #29 directly above yours, and let me know how you arrive at the notion (or more importantly How the disciples would have arrived at the notion) that Luke's "Time to flee Judea" in "those days" of "woe to the pregnant and nursing", And Matt & Marks "Time to Flee Judea" in "those days" of "woe to the pregnant and nursing" are NOT the same "time to flee Judea in those days of woe to the pregnant and nursing" and are instead unique, totally unrelated "times to flee Judea in those days of woe to the pregnant and nursing" separated by multiple millennia?

That makes no sense to me.

I actually did just that, but before even reading this post here. I must have been formulating a response to that post when you submitted this one.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
This seems to be the case, yet I don't see anything pertaining to 70 AD that explains the abomination part.

bdelugma
bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
from bdelussw - bdelusso 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination

Rev 17:4, Rev 17:5 Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 16:15, Rev 21:27---are the passages in the NT where this same Greek word is used. And when comparing to Rev 17:4, Rev 17:5, and Rev 21:27, and the way abomination is used in those passages, nothing that occurred in 70 AD appears to match the sense it is being used in these other passages. I have never even heard of a surrounding army being an abomination. I can't seem to find any such example in the OT nor the NT, where armies surrounding something, that this is an abomination.

Maybe they were eating shellfish and wearing mixed fibers... both of which are clearly listed in scripture as "abominations"...

But can those "abominations" cause Desolation of a city?

Not Likely..

Let's work through it backwards...
Did the Desolation spoken of occur? (I say yes)
Therefore, if so, then the Abomination that was foretold would cause it (whatever it was), must have caused it...no?

DavidPT · Jul 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Maybe they were eating shellfish and wearing mixed fibers... both of which are clearly listed in scripture as "abominations"...

But can those "abominations" cause Desolation of a city?

Not Likely..

Let's work through it backwards...
Did the Desolation spoken of occur? (I say yes)
Therefore, if so, then the Abomination that was foretold would cause it (whatever it was), must have caused it...no?

But what was the abomination though? Isn't that why we need to also consult the book of Daniel in order to gain further insight? But any passages in Daniel having to do with abominations, except for Daniel 9:26, many are telling me AE4 fulfilled those. I don't buy it myself, but that's me. Maybe it's because I am approaching the texts in question, without any bias. I did not first read what any past commentators concluded about the texts in question, thus being influenced by their conclusions, I read the texts void of
any outside influence. It doesn't make me automatically right and them automatically wrong, yet I feel in a lot of cases, so maybe not every case, that in general, one is better off approaching the texts, without outside influence, rather than with it.

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
But what was the abomination though? Isn't that why we need to also consult the book of Daniel in order to gain further insight?

Maybe...

I feel in a lot of cases, so maybe not every case, that in general, one is better off approaching the texts, without outside influence, rather than with it.

So if you approach the text without outside influence, what in the text leads you to believe that Luke's use of "armies surrounding Jerusalem" in the same place of Jesus' Discourse that Matt and Mark use "Abomination of Desolation" is NOT Luke providing an authoritative answer to the question of "what was the abomination"?

Since parallel accounts can not be interpreted to have separate, much less opposite meanings from one another, one would have to conclude that Luke's account is in fact NOT a synoptic account of Christ's 1 and only Olivet Discourse, if one is to claim they are not speaking of the same event.

If you approach the synoptic accounts of the Olivet discourse without pre meditated bias (as I'm happy to see you are want to do), what in the text leads you to conclude that Luke's account is NOT synoptic to Matt & Mark's?

claninja · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said:
But what was the abomination though? Isn't that why we need to also consult the book of Daniel in order to gain further insight? But any passages in Daniel having to do with abominations, except for Daniel 9:26, many are telling me AE4 fulfilled those. I don't buy it myself, but that's me. Maybe it's because I am approaching the texts in question, without any bias. I did not first read what any past commentators concluded about the texts in question, thus being influenced by their conclusions, I read the texts void of
any outside influence. It doesn't make me automatically right and them automatically wrong, yet I feel in a lot of cases, so maybe not every case, that in general, one is better off approaching the texts, without outside influence, rather than with it.

The context of the olivet discourse is the destruction of the temple

Matthew 24:2-3 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

So the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel, that the reader is to understand, should be in regards to the destruction of the temple. to keep with context.

Matthew 24:15 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

The abomination of desolation is mentioned in chapters 9,11, and 12 of Daniel. So I guess we should ask, which one is associated with the destruction of the temple. Are any of them not associated with the destruction of the temple?

Daniel 9:26-27 (Septuagint) And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations. And one week shall establish the covenant with many and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be given unto the desolation.

Daniel 11:31 (Septuagint) And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual [sacrifice], and make the abomination desolate.

Daniel 12:11 (Septuagint) And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 23, 2019

DavidPT said: ↑
In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, it mentions an abomination of desolation. An AOD had zero to do with what happened to the temple in 70 AD. But if you think it did, what exactly was the AOD then?

parousia70 said:
Luke interprets it as "Armies surrounding Jerusalem", or at the very least, in Comparing Luke's account to Matt & Mark's, the timing of the AOD is synonymous with Jersualem being surrounded by armies.
My Bet is that Luke's interpretation is correct.

parousia70 said:
That's a good point.

I definitely believe such a correlation harmonizes Luke's Olivet Discourse with Matt and Mark's:..
This passage in Luke:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
is EXACTLY parallel to THIS passage in Matthew:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Which is exactly parallel to this passage in Mark:

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
In all three synoptic accounts of this ONE discourse by Jesus we have:
The Same "WHEN"
The Same "Desolation"
The same "Then" time to "Flee" Jerusalem
The same "Woe to the Pregnant/Nursing" in the same "Those Days"
In all three accounts, Jesus is foretelling of the Same event.

I agree.

Let's take a gander at the verses and translations:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2050. eremosis from 2049; despoliation:--desolation.
Strong's Number G2050 matches the Greek ἐρήμωσις (erēmōsis),
which occurs 3 times in 3 verses

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared<4483> thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood<2476> in a place<5117>, holy<40> (the one-reading<ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be understanding<νοείτω 3539>)...[Revelation 1:3]
16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing!<5343> into the mountains<3735>

Mark 13:14
`Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding<1163>, (the one-reading< ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be minding/understanding), [Revelation 1:3]
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing! into the mountains

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet may be seeing Jerusalem surrounded<2124> by war-troops<4760>, then be knowing that come nigh<1448> desolating<2050> of Her
21 then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation [Poll Thread]

Yes, they appear to be the same
No, they are different
I have never noticed it
I don't know
Other

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/ἀναγινώσκων <314> and the ones hearing, the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written<γεγραμμένα<1125>, [Matthew 24:15]
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months [Luke 21:20]

======================================================

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation
Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation

Daniel 10:1
14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the last of the days, future Vision for days.

Daniel 11:31
and arms/02220 z@rowa` from him, they shall stand up. And they profane//violate/02490 chalal the Sanctuary/04720 miqdash, the-Refuge/ma`owz. And they take-away/05493 cuwr the-Continually/08548 tamiyd, and they give/05414 nathan The-Abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-making-desolate/08074 shamem.

"When will these things happen?"

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