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Featured "When will these things happen?"

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mister rogers, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    Notice in the following parallel accounts two things: Jesus says the temple will be destroyed, and then the disciples ask when it will happen and what signs that it’s about to occur:
    "Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.” “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” Luke 21:5-7
    "As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?” Mark 13:1-4
    "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:1-3
    What’s really interesting about this is how many ignore what the disciples asked in the first place and therefore don’t understand what Jesus is explaining. What followed is Jesus’ answer to their question. Now, as we know from history, the temple was destroyed; it’s no longer there; it happened in 70 AD when Titus' armies invaded Jerusalem. Clearly here, along with other things, Jesus explains what was going to happen leading up to the temple’s destruction. Let’s zero in on some details about it from the same parallel accounts:
    “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written." Luke 21:20-22
    “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again." Mark 13:14-19
    “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." Matthew 24:15-21
    Now, you may be scratching your head, “Wait, I've always been told the “abomination of desolation” and “the tribulation” and such are supposed to happen in the future. Well, it was in the future from the perspective of the disciples, and history bears out that it was the near future for them.
    Remember, the disciples asked specifically about the temple's destruction. Think about it: Somewhere in what Jesus said afterwards has to be their answer. If what I’ve pointed out isn’t, then where is it?
    The rest of the things Jesus spoke about is debatable as to when they would happen; I for one believe He transitions to the distant future (the end) when speaking of “that day” which no one knows but the Father (This I believe would be the time of the resurrection of the dead, final judgment, and eternity; I'm not a hyper-preterist). Nevertheless, I am convinced that what Jesus said about the abomination of desolation and tribulation in the Olivet Discourse pertained to the coming judgment on Israel in 70 AD, and is not about a future event from our perspective.
     
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  2. escapee

    escapee Member

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    This is a very complicated question. Looks like God usually hides from us when something will happen or what will happen, because it is a hindrance to most good works. Many times Jesus himself was destructed by having to do things because the Old Testament predicted them.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
    5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
    6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
    8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    But notice how Jesus immediately begins to answer them. What does any of that have to do with what happened in 70 AD?

    1---when shall these things be?

    2---and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    3---and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

    Which of these questions above is Jesus answering at the time when He begins answering like such?

    Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    On a different note, something I have often pondered, why say the days will come, rather than the day will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down?

    Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Some translations render it the time will come, yet the majority of translations render it the days shall come. It seems to me though, if the sense is that at some point, there is not one stone upon another, that had not been thrown down---that sounds like the day has come when this has been fulfilled in it's entirety, so why say the days shall come?
     
  4. escapee

    escapee Member

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    Day or days is dubious, because the use of singulars or prulars is language specific. My language would demand singular. But Indo European languages such as English require prulars.
     
  5. Greengardener

    Greengardener for love is of God Supporter

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    Interesting that you would post this today. This evening begins the fast of Tammuz, a Jewish commemoration that encompasses Moses breaking the tablets of stone in response to finding the children of Israel in the idolatrous worship of the golden calf image, the falling of Jerusalem prior to the destruction of the first temple in 586 BC, the breaching of the Jerusalem walls prior to the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I'll be looking up the related verses in Zechariah, Exodus 32.11, and Isaiah 55-56 shortly.
     
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  6. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    There were times Jewish people asked.. then the 12. Rome did surround the city.. many did leave as Jesus said they better! And they took down EVERY STONE .. that fire..Gold went everywhere. So no stone was left.

    Take the fig tree. I believe it is Israel. Yet.. is that a fact? Some of the wisest people I know and read say.. it can be but.. I read Rev and .. seems allot still has to happen. It could be one more min or another 30 years. I believe were in the end times. I live as if THIS was the day He comes. Always ready always living for Him..

    "He transitions to the distant future".. amen.. I agree.. how I see somethings He said
     
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  7. Greengardener

    Greengardener for love is of God Supporter

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    Watching, waiting, working with a full jar of lamp oil since we don't know for sure what hour He comes. He provided us with what to look for so we'd know it was Him and not circumstance.
     
  8. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    You might want to think it out again. The 1st warning was to flee when Jerusalem was being surrounded and indeed the church did get out of there. In 70 AD it was too late to flee by the time the Temple was torched. The odd statement by Jesus was that they should pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath or in winter seems to indicate that there would actually be a time of flight when the abomination of desolation takes place. The obvious suggestion was one sign was for the destruction of the temple and the other a sign of the 2nd coming.
    If you read 2nd Thess it talks about the man of sin being revealed so that he stands in the temple and exalts himself above all that is God. This guy is destroyed by the coming of the LORD. Dan 7 and Rev 13 are parallel passages and if you chew on those and integrate that the beast in Rev 13 and the pompous one in Dan 7 are the same guy in 2 Thess it is pretty clear. All three are destroyed by the coming of the LORD. In Dan 7 and Rev 13 we see a times times and half a time or 42 months is given for great persecution and then that is it. The world right now reflects the futurist view of a one world government taking over when the whole world is obsessed with dividing Jerusalem and making a two state solution. The Jews have prepared everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not performed since 70AD. The regathering of Israel and their conversion is one of the greatest themes in prophecy. The 3rd temple will be where the abomination of desolation takes place. The Jews will flee in that day. If you look at Zech 14 and Dan 7 both announce the time the kingdom that comes and describe that day as a day when Israel is saved from there enemies and their enemies are destroyed by the coming of the LORD aka son of man. These passages show life continuing on earth when the LORD comes as king. This brings in a time of righteousness on earth while Satan is bound. This timeline fits the passages and lines up with current events.
     
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  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just want to offer that a way of accounting for AD 70 in the middle of the "70th seven" of Daniel would be if that 70th 7 was seven decades, not seven single years

    Crucifixion = AD 30 at end of 69th seven
    confirm the New Covenant with many from Britain to Spain to India and beyond = AD 30-100 = 70th seven

    7 year-long Jewish Roman War = 66-73 AD occurred in the middle of that 7 decades long period, with the AoD destroying the physical temple in AD 70 in the middle of the 7 year war and middle of the 7 decade New Covenant confirmation period

    St. John lived until 100 AD, defining the Church's "Apostolic" period

    Daniel says "70 sevens", no where does it demand absolutely that each seven = seven individual years
    the 70th seven is separated & isolated, IDK any reason why it outright abjectly couldn't be 7 decades

    if it was 7 decades, everything works out and all of the Daniel Countdown Clock is continuous
     
  10. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The word DAYS in the Luke 21:6 text.

    DAYS:
    GREEK
    G2250
    ἡμέρα
    hēmera
    hay-mer'-ah
    day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

    Maybe it meant it would literally take days for the task to be completed by the Romans, or, the entire siege of Jerusalem, and the destruction of the Temple included would take a long time to accomplish.

    Anyway it says that days could be several days counted as one, therefore both could be correct but have no special significance in using (DAYS) rather than (DAY), sometimes we just over thing or Spiritualize what Scripture clearly, or basically says.
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    But even so, I would still think that once there is no stone upon another, that has not been thrown down, this would equal the day has arrived when this ends up being the case. Maybe I'm just over thinking it like you indicated? Yet I still can't help but wonder why it says days rather than day? It might be like saying the day will come when Jesus initially bodily returns. I would think no one would instead say the days will come when Jesus initially bodily returns.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Good point. It was indeed future for the pre 70ad Jews of that generation.......just as it is now past/fulfilled for them..........

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

    Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"


    Matthew 24:3
    Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
    when shall these be?
    and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

    Mark 13
    3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
    Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
    4 Tell us! when these shall be?
    and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

    Luke 21
    7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
    when then shall these be?
    And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to be becoming<1096>?
     
  13. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Again, your speaking of one particular day when Christ does return because He will not return of a number of unspecified days, only one.

    But like the Definition said it could be reckoned as a number of days.

    Do you think it only took the Romans 1 day to destroy the Temple?

    It is my belief, Jesus was speaking of all the days leading up to the Destruction, all of these things were taking place, ie number of days.

    The last thing is, if it does turn out to be days instead of day, how does that fact change your basic belief in Christ, does it make you believe less that He is the Son of God?

    Do you see what I'm saying, what is sooooo important semantically understanding of Day, Days?
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    One day......fall of Jerusalem in Revelation 18.......70ad

    Isa 47:1
    “Come down and sit in the dust,
    O virgin daughter of Babylon;
    Sit on the ground without a throne,
    O daughter of the Chaldeans!
    For you shall no more be called Tender and delicate.
    9 But these two things shall come to you
    In a moment, in one day:
    The loss of children, and widowhood.
    They shall come upon you in their fullness
    Because of the multitude of your sorceries,
    For the great abundance of your enchantments.

    Zec 14:1
    Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD—
    Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
    ============================================
    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee,
    now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies shall be casting about<4016> a rampart/siege-work<5482> to Thee
    and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side. 44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

    Luke 21:20

    “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies<4760>, then know that Her desolation is nigh.

    That goes nicely with Revelation 18:8

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


    Revelation 18:
    7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much,
    be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>.
    That in Her heart She is saying: 'I am sitting a Queen,
    and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'
    8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine. And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
    17 That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
    ======================================

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


    The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.........................
    Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation
    ===========================
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
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  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This is not that important to me. I was only pointing out that I have pondered in the past wondering why it says days rather than day. It struck me as unusual. I'm not losing any sleep over it or anything, just curious is all. :)
     
  16. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    I don't think it's unreasonable to think He answered each question. I'm not saying in what order. My point is, the questin about WHEN the temple would be destroyed, being that it logically would be covered somewhere on His response, the answer must be the parts I've emphasized: "WHEN you see . . .", etc. Nowhere else makes sense. And since we know it was destroyed, are we to believe Jesus was just going to skip telling them about it's soon destruction and only talk about it's distant future destruction after it's rebuilt again 2000 years later? Read through Matthew 23 leading into 24 too. He just finished telling the Jews judgment was coming to them, their house is left desolate, etc. To me it's a no-brainer He was saying what was about to happen to them.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, it mentions an abomination of desolation. An AOD had zero to do with what happened to the temple in 70 AD. But if you think it did, what exactly was the AOD then?
     
  18. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    Titus' and his army's actions when they invaded and destroyed the city and temple. Not all too different from when Antiochus Epiphanes came to the first temple. The Romans set up their idols when they came too.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.



    The chronology is pretty clear here. The first thing that is required, one must first see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place.

    Then once seeing it, at that very moment in time, them which be in Judea are to flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    This might be like your house catching on fire, and that the fire is raging out of control. You can either try and get out of there pronto like while you still can, or you could try and grab your personal belongings first, thus taking a chance of perishing in the fire.

    Was it like this when the Romans set up their idols in the temple, that those in Judea were swiftly fleeing to the mountains once they seen this with their own eyes? In order to have seen it with their own eyes, they would have to be in the same vicinity the Romans were at the time when they were doing this.

    After all, the text doesn't say, if you do not see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place, if you are in Judea, you are to still then flee to the mountains. It clearly says when you see this.
     
  20. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    Funny you said this as I was about to address it. Some suggest it refers to the sacrilege some Jews set up in anticipation of the Romans coming. There's a lot to read about from Josephus and some others. It was a pretty crazy time.
     
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