First person saved by grace through faith in the gospel

Gup20 · Jul 21, 2019

I think to understand salvation, it is helpful to go back to the first person the Bible says was saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This will be the template or pattern or model for salvation.

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB)
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB)
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

So the foundational covenant of faith was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses. So we can see that the covenant of faith does not include The Law nor is it conditional or modified by the law.

Galatians 3:14-17 (NASB) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The covenant of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ was ratified in Genesis 15... so The Law cannot add conditions to a previously ratified covenant. Therefore, the covenant of faith is truly apart from the law.

so we must look to Abraham and his template & apply it to the New Testament to see the pattern or template for salvation by grace through faith.

~Zao~ · Jul 21, 2019

… the foundational covenant of faith …. the covenant of faith does not include The Law nor is it conditional or modified by the law…. so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith …. in terms of human relations … to your seed," that is, Christ … therefore … the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise … Therefore,,,,, the covenant of faith is truly apart from the law.

so we must look to Abraham and his template & apply it to the New Testament to see the pattern or template for salvation by grace through faith.

viz

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB)
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB)
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith

Would you say then that rightful standing to receive blessings of faith is given before circumcision of the heart occurs? Would you not say further that the standing for grace comes from a more refined perspective? Or is it simply that you overlooked the aspect of grace as defined in the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 15 as coming from the legal union? As outlined in further reading to Galatians 4

The covenant of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ was ratified in Genesis 15... so The Law cannot add conditions to a previously ratified covenant. Therefore, the covenant of faith is truly apart from the law.
so we must look to Abraham and his template & apply it to the New Testament to see the pattern or template for salvation by grace through faith.

Dave L · Jul 21, 2019

Gup20 said:
I think to understand salvation, it is helpful to go back to the first person the Bible says was saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This will be the template or pattern or model for salvation.

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB)
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB)
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

So the foundational covenant of faith was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses. So we can see that the covenant of faith does not include The Law nor is it conditional or modified by the law.

Galatians 3:14-17 (NASB) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The covenant of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ was ratified in Genesis 15... so The Law cannot add conditions to a previously ratified covenant. Therefore, the covenant of faith is truly apart from the law.

so we must look to Abraham and his template & apply it to the New Testament to see the pattern or template for salvation by grace through faith.

Salvation was always in the new birth that produced faith in whatever fragments of the gospel became available. Abel was born again as was Job, and many others listed in Hebrews 11. Faith is the proof of salvation (the new birth).

Danielwright2311 · Jul 21, 2019

Gup20 said:
I think to understand salvation, it is helpful to go back to the first person the Bible says was saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This will be the template or pattern or model for salvation.

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB)
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB)
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

So the foundational covenant of faith was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses. So we can see that the covenant of faith does not include The Law nor is it conditional or modified by the law.

Galatians 3:14-17 (NASB) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The covenant of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ was ratified in Genesis 15... so The Law cannot add conditions to a previously ratified covenant. Therefore, the covenant of faith is truly apart from the law.

so we must look to Abraham and his template & apply it to the New Testament to see the pattern or template for salvation by grace through faith.

Because every one is a sinner there is no other way but just to believe in Jesus and get baptized so the holy spirit will enter into us to convert us into new beings.

We do not live by the law any longer but the law the spirit writes in our hearts.

Jesus is the way to salivation, there is no other way.

sdowney717 · Jul 21, 2019

However none of the OT saints was perfected till Christ was resurrected, none of them went to heaven when they died. They all died in faith not receiving the promise, but they did go to paradise. (refer parable of Lazarus and the rich man, which was not yet in heaven) But after Christ ascended, He lead the captivity captive and took them all in Paradise into heaven with Him. Before that paradise was a place for righteous dead, Sheol, a part of hell (place of the dead), separated by a great gulf from the place of torment for the wicked.

They were not to be perfected apart from us in the new covenant. The next time we read of paradise it is in heaven with God.

Hebrews 11
32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

That something better for us (includes them) was the the great salvation of the New Covenant.

Gup20 · Jul 21, 2019

LoreneDD said:
Would you say then that rightful standing to receive blessings of faith is given before circumcision of the heart occurs?

Yes, we see in the Romans passage that Abraham was made righteous while uncircumcised. The pattern is clear that righteousness precedes indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Would you not say further that the standing for grace comes from a more refined perspective? Or is it simply that you overlooked the aspect of grace as defined in the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 15 as coming from the legal union? As outlined in further reading to Galatians 4

Could you clarify what you mean by “comes from a more refined perspective?”

Genesis 17:2-7 (NASB) 2 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

So the “rightful standing” to obtain the blessings of Abraham are to be qualified as a descendant.

Romans 4:13 (NASB) For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
16 (NASB) For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (NASB) (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Galatians 4:24 (NASB) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
26-28 (NASB) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

So we see in Genesis 17 God is making the faith covenant with Abraham and claims the covenant will multiply his descendants, and that those descendants would be from many nations (not one nation) and that those descendants would all inherit the everlasting covenant.

Paul then quotes Isa 54:1 in regards to Hagar & Sarah allegorically representing the two covenants - the law & faith. The covenant of faith (the desolate one) will have many more descendants. Being desolate means she didn’t give birth to them, but rather they were adopted.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Gup20 · Jul 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Salvation was always in the new birth that produced faith in whatever fragments of the gospel became available. Abel was born again as was Job, and many others listed in Hebrews 11. Faith is the proof of salvation (the new birth).

Perhaps, yet the covenant of faith whereby we inherit Christ’s righteousness was given to Abraham. The covenant requires inheritance to be effective - we are not each given our own, new righteousness, but rather we inherit the righteousness given to Abraham. Abraham was the first - and only - man to obtain righteousness directly for his faith. The rest of us obtain righteousness indirectly by our faith in the gospel first qualifying as descendants and then inheriting the promise. Christ Himself obtained the righteousness for resurrection through inheritance.

Hebrews 1:4 (NASB)
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Galatians 3:13 (NASB) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

~Zao~ · Jul 21, 2019

The Lord’s word came immediately to him, …. Your heir will definitely be your very own biological child.” Genesis 15

Galatians 4 explains the analogy of the descendent of promise’s heirs are only thru grace but not from law. (like Genesis 13 may be) Equally plainly stated are that all of Abraham’s descents, his many children, are all of faith in the line of inheritance thru Abraham. Sarah is invisible to you?

Hence the refined view of grace is in comparison to faith alone. (which is sooooo overlooked that it’s just an understatement~) Which is faith plus grace. Faith (justification) comes first. Grace (sanctification) follows.

Seen in the pattern of Abraham and Isaac (the promise child) faith came first, then works followed provided by Jehovah Jireh.

The covenant of faith (the desolate one) will have many more descendants. Being desolate means she didn’t give birth to them, but rather they were adopted.

No it doesn’t.

~Zao~ · Jul 21, 2019

"Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. ... So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Adoption was a Roman rule that was the only means of assurance of inheritance. The closest the Jews had to it was acceptance into the covenant, there was no adoption as the law covered the unprotected by kinsmen redemption.

Dave L · Jul 22, 2019

Gup20 said:
Perhaps, yet the covenant of faith whereby we inherit Christ’s righteousness was given to Abraham. The covenant requires inheritance to be effective - we are not each given our own, new righteousness, but rather we inherit the righteousness given to Abraham. Abraham was the first - and only - man to obtain righteousness directly for his faith. The rest of us obtain righteousness indirectly by our faith in the gospel first qualifying as descendants and then inheriting the promise. Christ Himself obtained the righteousness for resurrection through inheritance.

Hebrews 1:4 (NASB)
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Galatians 3:13 (NASB) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

What covenant was Abel, Job and others listed in Heb. 11 saved under? If any?

Gup20 · Jul 22, 2019

LoreneDD said:
The Lord’s word came immediately to him, …. Your heir will definitely be your very own biological child.” Genesis 15

Genesis 15:4-6
And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

So we see that the biological seed spoken of in Genesis 15:4,5 is Christ (through the lineage of Isaac.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 8:15 (NASB)
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Romans 8:23 (NASB)
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Romans 9:4 (NASB)
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Galatians 4:5 (NASB)
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Ephesians 1:5 (NASB)
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Galatians 4 explains the analogy of the descendent of promise’s heirs are only thru grace but not from law. (like Genesis 13 may be) Equally plainly stated are that all of Abraham’s descents, his many children, are all of faith in the line of inheritance thru Abraham. Sarah is invisible to you?

Hence the refined view of grace is in comparison to faith alone. (which is sooooo overlooked that it’s just an understatement~) Which is faith plus grace. Faith (justification) comes first. Grace (sanctification) follows.

Seen in the pattern of Abraham and Isaac (the promise child) faith came first, then works followed provided by Jehovah Jireh.

I don’t really have any significant disagreements here.

No it doesn’t.

Sure it does.

Galatians 4:30 (NASB) But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

Gup20 · Jul 22, 2019

Dave L said:
What covenant was Abel, Job and others listed in Heb. 11 saved under? If any?

The gospel was first preached to Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen 3:15).. it has been available since then... however... Abraham was the first to be made righteous for his faith in it, and it is he whom God made the covenant of faith with.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 3:8 NASB] 8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

[Rom 4:13, 16-17 NASB] 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

I can only surmise that those who preceded Abraham chronologically could be adopted by Abraham as time isn't a consideration and could go both ways for spiritual adoption.

Dave L · Jul 22, 2019

Gup20 said:
The gospel was first preached to Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen 3:15).. it has been available since then... however... Abraham was the first to be made righteous for his faith in it, and it is he whom God made the covenant of faith with.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

[Luk 3:8 NASB] 8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

[Rom 4:13, 16-17 NASB] 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

I can only surmise that those who preceded Abraham chronologically could be adopted by Abraham as time isn't a consideration and could go both ways for spiritual adoption.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means all listed in Heb. 11 among the faithful were born again = saved.

Gup20 · Jul 22, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means all listed in Heb. 11 among the faithful were born again = saved.

Walking in faith is a fruit of the spirit, but the spirit has to be present in order to produce fruit. The indwelling of the spirit comes AFTER one has believed, so Gal 5:22 is not talking about the faith to obtain salvation.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Act 11:17 NASB] 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" (parenthetical emphasis mine from previous verses)

One has to wonder how the "fruit of the spirit" could ever come before the spirit was there - or before the plant was planted (parable of the sower) or the branches were grafted into the vine. The seed (gospel) must be sown, the plat take root (belief), and it must grow up to produce fruit (the spirit).

Many translations translate Gal 5:22 as "faithfulness" rather than "faith" because it better captures the essence of the meaning. Unlike salvation faith, the faith which is a result of the spirit is a sustaining faith helping you to stand firm and accomplish work in faith.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

[Rom 2:29 NASB] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision is the old testament placeholder for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which didn't happen until the New Testament. Abraham was made righteous for his faith while uncircumcised, showing that justification to righteousness comes before the indwelling ... as both Eph 1 and Acts 11 say above.

Dave L · Jul 22, 2019

Gup20 said:
Walking in faith is a fruit of the spirit, but the spirit has to be present in order to produce fruit. The indwelling of the spirit comes AFTER one has believed, so Gal 5:22 is not talking about the faith to obtain salvation.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Act 11:17 NASB] 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" (parenthetical emphasis mine from previous verses)

One has to wonder how the "fruit of the spirit" could ever come before the spirit was there - or before the plant was planted (parable of the sower) or the branches were grafted into the vine. The seed (gospel) must be sown, the plat take root (belief), and it must grow up to produce fruit (the spirit).

Many translations translate Gal 5:22 as "faithfulness" rather than "faith" because it better captures the essence of the meaning. Unlike salvation faith, the faith which is a result of the spirit is a sustaining faith helping you to stand firm and accomplish work in faith.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

[Rom 2:29 NASB] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision is the old testament placeholder for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which didn't happen until the New Testament. Abraham was made righteous for his faith while uncircumcised, showing that justification to righteousness comes before the indwelling ... as both Eph 1 and Acts 11 say above.

The flesh cannot grasp spiritual truth or believe in any true sense. Faith is a fruit of (comes after) having the Holy Spirit.

Gup20 · Jul 22, 2019

Dave L said:
The flesh cannot grasp spiritual truth or believe in any true sense. Faith is a fruit of (comes after) having the Holy Spirit.

It can - scripture makes clear that we have the knowledge of GOOD as well as evil (not just evil).

Genesis 3:22 (NASB) Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

We see this passage in Deuteronomy 30 talking about circumcision of the heart. 3 times this chapter says life & death, the blessing & the curse are a choice God sets before us. It goes on to say that it is “not too difficult” for us to make the choice and that the choice is not made “in heaven” (where God is.

lest we think this is talking about the covenant of the law & not faith, Paul sets the record straight:

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Dave, you are the one in this passage who has said in his heart “who will ascend to heaven” to grasp the spiritual truth. But the scripture says quite clearly it is not too difficult for us to hear & understand. The word is already in our heart - we already have the knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Dave L · Jul 22, 2019

Gup20 said:
It can - scripture makes clear that we have the knowledge of GOOD as well as evil (not just evil).

Genesis 3:22 (NASB) Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

We see this passage in Deuteronomy 30 talking about circumcision of the heart. 3 times this chapter says life & death, the blessing & the curse are a choice God sets before us. It goes on to say that it is “not too difficult” for us to make the choice and that the choice is not made “in heaven” (where God is.

lest we think this is talking about the covenant of the law & not faith, Paul sets the record straight:

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Dave, you are the one in this passage who has said in his heart “who will ascend to heaven” to grasp the spiritual truth. But the scripture says quite clearly it is not too difficult for us to hear & understand. The word is already in our heart - we already have the knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

If not first born again, true faith is impossible.

Francis Drake · Jul 22, 2019

Dave L said:
Salvation was always in the new birth that produced faith in whatever fragments of the gospel became available. Abel was born again as was Job, and many others listed in Hebrews 11. Faith is the proof of salvation (the new birth).

I often argue with you Dave, but you are dead to rights here.
I cannot comprehend the claim that people didn't experience new birth in the OT.

Gup20 · Jul 22, 2019

Dave L said:
If not first born again, true faith is impossible.

To be born, two entities must first join to form the new creation. Our faith qualifies us as a descendant of Abraham. Descendants of Abraham obtain righteousness. AFTER we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit as a pledge and placeholder for our full inheritance yet to come in the resurrection.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Act 11:16-17 NASB
16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Friend you err in the sequence. It is clear from multiple scriptures that the indwelling comes AFTER we believe, not before. These verses are irrefutable. You must change your thinking to align with scripture.

Moreover, you must tread carefully, as you are actually disobeying scripture to think this is the truth. For it says,

Rom 10:6 NASB 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

You are not only saying this in your heart, but you are preaching it to others and convincing them to say it in their hearts as well. This you should not do.

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