1/3 of democrats believe it's racist to criticize a politician of color

RocksInMyHead said:

I find it surprising because I don't see the left talking about those terms either - apart from white privilege, but not in the way that you view it. This forum is literally the only place I've ever seen the term "white fragility" mentioned. Those are very much fringe views. While I have no doubt that there are people who believe that it's always racist for a white person to criticize a black person, I can't see how they could make up a full third of Democrats based on my own interactions with members of my party.

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I have found quite a few out there of the intersectional viewpoint. One third may not be that much of a stretch. They are not just on here.

And this is also why candidates like Beto are constantly talking about their white privilege, because they are meeting these people as well, and want to appeal to them. It is less clear that his efforts do actually appeal, but that is another topic.

Ana the Ist said:

It's not a false dichotomy.

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It is if the answer options are binary (which the Rasmussen article makes it sound like). Considering that the percentage of responses to that question total 96%, it's likely that the choices are agree/disagree/not sure.

How can criticizing one's "political views" be "racist"?

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See President Trump's tweets this past weekend.

RocksInMyHead said:

I find it surprising because I don't see the left talking about those terms either - apart from white privilege, but not in the way that you view it. This forum is literally the only place I've ever seen the term "white fragility" mentioned. .

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I have not seen fragility mentioned often. But the viewpoints underlying the thought are phrased in various ways.

KCfromNC said:

Weird, for all the worrying I'm supposed to do about this it has never been an issue for me - despite the implication that it is for other posts. Wonder why that is.

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You're asking me to guess about your personal situation? I'll bite...

Perhaps you're only around white people in real life. Perhaps you only brush up against the opinions of non-whites online and when you do disagree...you never voice that opinion for fear of being called racist.

Normally I wouldn't speculate, but you asked.

Ana the Ist said:

It's only a third?

A third seems like a lot for a group of people constantly accusing people of racism.

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In the wake of what Trump tweeted? The number is likely inflated due to that. People are going to be a lot more sensitive to this stuff for a bit.

LoAmmi said:

In the wake of what Trump tweeted? The number is likely inflated due to that. People are going to be a lot more sensitive to this stuff for a bit.

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And it could also be in response to AOC's comments about Pelosi.

But that wouldn't help the argument that it is not racism. That might reinforce it.

Calminian said:

People who believe that whites don't have to right to criticize non-whites?? Uh, yeah, they're definitely going to be triggered by Trump who doesn't care what color anyone is. He disagrees with you, you'll know it, regardless of your skin color.

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and yet he didn't tell Biden, Sanders, Clinton, or McCain to leave if they weren't happy, despite having really big open feuds with a few of them.

tall73 said:

I have found quite a few out there of the intersectional viewpoint. One third may not be that much of a stretch. They are not just on here.

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I'm aware that they exist - I even know a few myself. And they're highly vocal and active online, which may make them seem more numerous than they are. But they don't make up a third of the party.

And this is also why candidates like Beto are constantly talking about their white privilege, because they are meeting these people as well, and want to appeal to them. It is less clear that his efforts do actually appeal, but that is another topic.

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Presidential candidates generally skew radical in the primaries because that's where they can differentiate themselves from the other options. It works like that on both sides of the political spectrum.

Though "white privilege" isn't exactly a radical idea, at least as it's espoused by most people on the left.

RocksInMyHead said:

I'm aware that they exist - I even know a few myself. And they're highly vocal and active online, which may make them seem more numerous than they are. But they don't make up a third of the party.


Presidential candidates generally skew radical in the primaries because that's where they can differentiate themselves from the other options. It works like that on both sides of the political spectrum.

Though "white privilege" isn't exactly a radical idea, at least as it's espoused by most people on the left.

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If those highly vocal voices keep being responded to with more and more coverage, and by candidates, even in primaries, they may not stay few for very long. Or they may not be now.

It remains to be seen what percentage they are.

NotreDame said:

I absolutely want to know the black man serving a life sentence without parole for “possessing one joint.” Name, DOC number, DOC sentence, and facility in which he will inevitably become a corpse.

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Well, I will freely admit it was a bit hyperbolic. But there ARE people of color with extremely harsh sentences for minor drug infractions. Someone like Bernard Noble who got 13 years for two joints.

Indeed the stats show that people of color DO have a higher incidence of time spent behind bars for mere possession or use of marijuana than white men even though stats show that their usages is essentially equivalent. There are systemic problems with our justice system as it relates to race.

A white man has a 1/17 chance of spending time in prison...a black man 1/3.

A great deal of this is due to the 3-strikes laws passed in the 90's and the strengthening of drug enforcement under Clinton in the 90's. SOmething Clinton himself has expressed unhappiness about. He helped usher in a much worse racial system within our justice system.

The worst part (and something you are probably far more familiar with) is the prevalence of plea deals vs trials. The discretion by prosecutors to load up a bunch of potential charges against a person who is more likely to only be able to get a public defender results in the odds at least appearing more dangerous for minorities and people of limited economic means than a trail.

We also have studies showing that black men get much higher sentences for the same crime as white men.

So, yeah, I admit to the "life for a joint" was hyperbolic, but hopefully you see the larger point I was making about the other posters comment about racism.

Sources
Criminal Justice Facts | The Sentencing Project

http://www.drugpolicy.org/blog/bern...eing-sentenced-13-years-possessing-two-joints

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...te-person-study-finds/?utm_term=.1913b808614e

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/23/when-race-tips-the-scales-in-plea-bargaining

Calminian said:

Sentencing is not as exact a science as conviction. Sentencing is complicated. A lot of things are taken into account and it's those variables that we're now aware of. Therefore, in sentencing it's impossible to compare apples to apples. Yes, this will be used to mfr. racist charges, but it can only be proven on a case by case bases, and no one is offering that. You're not even offering details.

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That is why we have statistics. Unless we believe that systemically across millions and millions of people spanning an entire continent's worth of country somehow winds up with black men being sentenced to longer terms for the same crime by about 19% higher (SOURCE)

As for details I did offer a citation or two.

Calminian said:

According to a recent poll, a shocking number of democrats believe it is actually racist to criticize a "politician of color".

Poll: A Third Of Democrats Believe It’s Racist To Criticize Politicians Of Color

A new poll suggests that nearly one third of Democrats believe white politicians who criticize politicians of color are racist.

Rasmussen conducted the survey with 1,000 registered voters between July 15-16th. The survey found that 32% of Democrats agree that it is racist for any white politician to criticize the political views of politician of color.​

This is fascinating on so many levels. America is the least racist country in all of history. We truly live in a blessed time, just as MKL hoped for. Yet we have people who think like this. Amazing.

I've never seen any group strive harder to accuse innocent people of racism. To me this is worse than racism, as it includes bearing false witness, which made the top ten.

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Do you trust Rasmussen polls?

Calminian said:

And just think about this response. It's okay because of how they're feeling. Really? That's the standard?

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Well, it is an indicator. If I were to call you a particularly horrific name would you be in the right to feel I was insulting you? What if I explained to you that indeed it was not meant as an insult?

That's the point. Indeed, people of good will CAN accidentally insult others. For instance recently someone said something to the effect that "nothing you wrote was true". I took it to mean that they were calling me a liar. Granted it could have been that they merely disagreed with my points but they didn't make that clear by providing anything in the way of counterargument.

I was perfectly in the right to assume they were calling me a liar.

I think we CAN resolve these things but if someone says "Hey, I feel insulted by that comment" the PROPER response is NOT to say "Oh don't be silly".

That is what I see with racism in America. Black people (usually supported by the actual statistics) feel that there IS systemic racism. They live it every day. The response from White America in part is "Racism is over. Get over it". But clearly it isn't really over.

I defer to those who LIVE an experience to let me know if that experience is different from my own. I don't experience racism...at all! Ever! So how can I know what it is like to be black in America? I can read extensively which I do and I understand statistics to some extent and frankly that is scary enough.

It's okay to have a racist view against whites so long as it's based in feeling?

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Except "racism against whites" isn't actually impactful. Seriously. Have you EVER been denied something because you were white? If you were, could you not just go down the street and get it anyway?

If a black person called you a "honky" would you be mortified? Or would it just roll right off your back? I don't know about you but I wouldn't be offended because I know it carries NO REAL IMPACT on my life. Because I'm white and I have a great life. I've NEVER been randomly pulled over by police. I've NEVER been randomly stopped and frisked. I've committed crimes for which I was not even charged or arrested!

And it's someone else responsibility to change how they feel? Sorry, that dog won't hunt. There is racism in America, but it comes from all shades, and there's no excuse for it.

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Oh give it a break. Let's not be so overly sensitive. THere is white privilege. Whether some of the whinier whites like it or not.

RocksInMyHead said:

I didn't see the poll questions linked on the Rasmussen page that was linked in the article, so thanks for finding that.

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No problem.

As has already been pointed out, there are some potential issues with the poll. For one, without the answer options (and a subsequent breakdown of results), it's hard to interpret. That's not a black-and-white question - there are shades of gray. It certainly can be racist, but it's not always racist. If the answer options were simply yes/no or agree/disagree, then the question is absolutely flawed. And if they had other answer options but counted the "sometimes/it depends/maybe" responses as "yes" for reporting purposes, then they did fudge the results.

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Again, I'm not seeing it. A white person can criticize a person of color about anything and it isn't necessarily racist. This question is specifically about criticizing politics....

Can you give an example of a political views criticism that would be racist? Again, make sure it's political....not racial.

Second, the analysis is skewed - the article in the OP makes it sound as though the respondents are saying that it's always racist for a white politician to criticize the political views of a black politician, but that's not what the question was asking.

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What is it asking? There's only 3 criteria there....

1. That the criticism is from a white person.
2. That the criticism is towards a person of color.
3. That it's a criticism of political views.

The third question, while interesting, also makes the poll's bias pretty obvious.



The "reverse racism" idea has been a right-wing deflection for a long time now, and while it does have some merit in that racism can go both ways on a personal level, it's not really relevant to the discussion of racism in the US, which is more related to institutional racism.

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No offense....but that's ridiculous. Racism is racism...and this shifting "but it's not this type of racism" excuse is never held consistently. Trump's tweets were, unquestionably, interpersonal racism...someone saying something racist to someone else. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that it was treated like a five alarm fire
...not brushed off because it's "not institutional racism". Do you treat interpersonal racism towards whites the same way? Or is it different somehow?

I had a thread just a week or two ago....about a concert aimed at a black audience that was charging whites double for the same ticket. A clear example of institutional racism (the music industry is an institution of sorts) and the response from the few liberal posters was....mocking. There was no concern....no outrage....

When I asked why....the only reply I got was that when you're racist against whites, it's considered "punching up". The belief that whites are somehow in a position of power that makes racism against them ok....or otherwise diminishes it's effect.

If you really do just disregard interpersonal racism because it's not as important as institutional racism, then obviously I'm not talking about you. The vast majority of people using that excuse though...use it to justify or diminish racism against whites.

I find it surprising because I don't see the left talking about those terms either - apart from white privilege, but not in the way that you view it. This forum is literally the only place I've ever seen the term "white fragility" mentioned. Those are very much fringe views. While I have no doubt that there are people who believe that it's always racist for a white person to criticize a black person, I can't see how they could make up a full third of Democrats based on my own interactions with members of my party.

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Fair enough....obviously we aren't going to consume the same media. I do think it's a full third of the party...I think the fact that a poster here basically tried to defend the idea, might indicate it's more prevalent than you realize.

LoAmmi said:

In the wake of what Trump tweeted? The number is likely inflated due to that. People are going to be a lot more sensitive to this stuff for a bit.

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....really? Trump's tweets alter your view of what is and isn't racist?

Calminian said:

Hmm. Doesn't it depend on whether or not it really was silly, though?

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Not really. I was talking people of good will. Not the kind of person who cannot imagine themselves ever to have said something even accidentally wrong.

If it silly perhaps it is just silly to the listener and the listener isn't quite as familiar with the rest of the story as they want to think they are.

I mean aren't some conclusions just plain silly?

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Oh yeah sure! Just look here on CF. There are folks who, as an example, say the most ridiculous things about global warming science based on their amazing ignorance of the topic. BUT most honest discussion comes from trying to correct them. After a while of course the debate becomes more coarse as the world's scientists get tired of explaining basic science to people who are unwilling to learn just so they can stick with flawed concepts because they just "feel better'.

And I can see that in the racism discussion. Indeed there ARE people who want to be victims no matter what. But statistics show that this isn't necessarily the case with racism in America. There is a systemic racism that shows up in the numbers. As such I have to listen when someone says they are offended by a comment that might be racist. I don't always agree with it, but I must default to listening first. And only after listening determine whether it is "silly" or not.

I see you don't practice what you preach.

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That's actually a good catch. I apologize. Do tell me how white privilege isn't real or how white people can suffer from racism systemically. Remember in my earlier statement part of the calculus for me is whether there's reason to believe such a thing exists as to whether it is worth listening for. I don't have any experience of racism against me as a white male and I've never seen any statistical data showing that. But I should not have jumped to conclusions. I'm sure someone will have some "anecdotal" data.

But I'll say it again, stop making excuses for racism.

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Not making excuses for racism. Merely noting how there are concepts that are constructed precisely to deny racism exists. The false equivalence of racism against whites, as one example

When we condemn racism as a whole, things will heal quickly. Not until then.

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To an extent that is true. However, racism against me is pretty much non-existent. And I don't see much of ANYTHING in the statistics that show it to even be remotely a real "thing". If and when I see that data I will DEFINITELY be more mindful of it.

Ana the Ist said:

....really? Trump's tweets alter your view of what is and isn't racist?

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I'm not going to pretend you don't know what I mean.