How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

Stephen Douglas

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Doug, how is foreknown any different than foresaw? If God foreknew someone then He certainly foresaw them and if He foresaw them He certainly foreknew them. He knows the end from the beginning, right?


God certainly “foresees” all people and all things before, during and after the event. It is rather redundant to say that God “foresees” anything. Well, of course He does. Therefore, it doesn’t read well to assume that the word translated as “foreknew” in Romans 8:29 should be interpreted as a seeing or knowing something about the person even prior to that person’s birth.

I hope that isn’t hard to follow. I think Matthew 7:23 is the best example of what it actually means to “know” someone in the biblical sense. That passage would indicate that it is possible for God to “know of” the person without having an “intimate” knowledge (relationship) of that same person.

What do you think?

Doug
 
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SkyWriting

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This whole article is full of logical fallacies & demonstrates the falseness of Calvinistic teaching that somehow 'FREE' will magically turns into law & obedience which in turn is responsibility.
Exercising free choice can also easily be IRRESPONSIBLE by choosing to do evil vs good. It cannot be defined as responsible. No dictionary anywhere shows this fallacious definition.Basic grammar is the 'IF...THEN...' construction. If presents the conditions that must be done BEFORE the THEN conclusion is completed.The question is asked, 'What MUST I DO in order to be saved?' In other words, what conditions must I meet BEFORE I can be saved or so that the result will lead to salvation.The condition is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & THEN you WILL BE saved. Scripture does NOT say you have been saved or you are saved but is in the future tense. If the condition is met, THEN you will be saved.

Any further research?

BLOCK LOGIC (An Introduction to Hebrew Thought)

Greek Linear Logic vs. Hebrew Step Logic -

 
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Halbhh

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Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

I'm attempting to paraphrase your post as accurately as I can, and would like you to review this paraphrase, to see if it is what you meant. It might be challenging to understand my particular language wording (just like for anyone's). :) So, I might repeat some things in a different wording to help make it more likely my intended sense of meaning is clear enough. You are using the phrase 'free will' differently than I ever have, and that's the most challenging part for me to get accurately, so I'm using a lot of wording to try to say what I think you mean. Altogether, it's a translation work. So, please bear with me.

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

[translation/paraphrase] --

Self-will/independence/self-righteousness permeates the world as far as it concerns morality/principles/systems of moral law. Morals/principles become a way people evaluate their own righteousness. Self-will/independence/self-righteousness is in play wherever moralism exists.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

[translation/paraphrase] --

In the Old Testament[Old Covenant], God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on will power [non-translation note: and we know also on atonement through sacrifices, since He already knew they would at least stumble repeatedly and needed a system of atonement]. But a problem develops when we try to import accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself willpower and justify-self-on-basis-of-law(?) into the New Covenant. God did away with justify-self-on-basis-of-law(?) and self-will/independence/self-righteousness has no place. So if we keep self-will/independence/self-righteousness--moralism-self-righteousness, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into self-will/independence/self-righteousness And God’s grace into self-righteousness-moralism works [as distinct from the actual works Christ commands directly to us?].

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

[translation/paraphrase] --

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. [Hallelujah!] Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself-without-the-Spirit-guiding-us (?), we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself-without-the-Spirit-guiding-us works.

------------------
Does this seem accurate so far? Help correct any mistranslations please.
 
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bling

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That first paragraph you quoted from post #309 and responded to is actually a viewpoint I don't have, and think is likely to be incorrect, and present first in order to bring out it's assumptions to examine.

Another assumption I don't have is naturalism -- the idea/view that all God's actions are inside nature (even levels of nature we don't yet know of, etc.). See, I don't assume naturalism, therefore I would not myself tend to be thinking of any possibilities about how God could travel through time or space, like wormholes, etc. I don't think time, space, energy, and such apply even partly on His actions. I don't guess that God is even simply on some other level of nature (other dimensions, other Universe, etc.), but instead to be truly and fully transcendent -- not merely on another level, but transcendent of any other systems of natural constraints also.

But if you read further through post #309, you'll see better how I'm trying to question some assumptions many people are making.
I realize you believe in free will and I did read 309, but you like most who belief in free will, cannot give any possible way for God to know the “future” perfectly and man to be able to choose otherwise. It is all left to some “mysterious way” only God could figure out. That is not a strong answer for those who can logically show how it would be impossible for the future to be set in stone and man to have free will (I get into discussions with Open View believers about this same thing.

You do state some good ideas like:

“He did not want robots…”

“partial determinism”

“God will accomplish what He plans…”

“we have an actual free will that is not nominal”

“…outside-of-physics spirit in us that can be either totally predictable or truly unpredictable, separate from the totality of nature”

You say: “I don't assume naturalism, therefore I would not myself tend to be thinking of any possibilities about how God could travel through time or space, like wormholes, etc. I don't think time, space, energy, and such apply even partly on His actions. I don't guess that God is even simply on some other level of nature (other dimensions, other Universe, etc.), but instead to be truly and fully transcendent -- not merely on another level, but transcendent of any other systems of natural constraints also.”

Yet, you turn around and put God in our time frame, suggesting our future is also future for God.

What I showed is even man’s science in our physical universe has shown for the last 100 years that time is relative. This would support the idea that time is totally relative for God, who is not limited to nature.

Man’s science has shown “nature” (plants, animals, matter, space, time and energy) is very predictable and if enough was known about the environment and “genes” actions could be predetermined like which direction the butterfly will fly, so from just a scientific perspective: it might be assumed man does not truly have free will (we can determine the ice-cream he will choose tomorrow at noon), especially if man is no different than other animals with the exception of being more complex.

It is only when we interject the “God factor” that there could be some truly autonomous free will choices made by humans, if God provided a limited amount of autonomy in at least mature adult humans (making them in the image of God). So what is the need for humans to have limited free will?

The question then comes up: How could God know man’s future perfectly (making it set in stone) and man to be able to make truly autonomous free will choices?

Jesus knew for certain (without any other possibility) that Peter would betray Him three time that night (not more than once and not in the next few days) and Christ told Peter he would. If Christ did not know for certain than to keep from being misleading Christ should have said “you might or could” leaving it contingent and making Christ’s statement a “warning”. This is not the actions of Deity which can be stated and changed (Jeremiah 18), but actions Peter would be taking.

How would you define God being: “Outside of time’s limitations”?

If something has happened and thus became part of history, could that history be changed by even God? This is not saying: God could not create a second Adam and Eve, but God could not eliminate the fact there was a previous Adam and Eve.

Could “and even would” God at the end of time know historically all what happened throughout man’s history from the beginning of time?

If God is outside of time, what would keep God from knowing simultaneously,

what was going on at the end of time and the beginning of time?

God in His communication with man sometimes speak on man’s level and understanding, like talking about the sun setting or the four corners of earth, would also suggest God being throughout time simultaneously would not have to be presented in God’s conversation with man, like the rotation of a round earth would not need to be in the conversation with man?

If God is outside of time, what would keep God’s presence at the end of time from communicating back to Himself at the beginning of time all the history of all humans?

If God is outside of time, would He know from the beginning of time all the history of every human who will ever live?

Does just knowing the history of a person’s actions, mean that those actions cannot be autonomous free will actions? (Please provide any science or logic showing they could not be free will actions, since the secular world would say they could be and do not use that as a “proof” against free will.)

In the “Space Time Continuum” would God be able to simultaneously know what is happening in our world and in a Galaxy a billion light years away?
 
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Halbhh

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cannot give any possible way for God to know the “future” perfectly
I could come up with a lot of different ways, speculative. And, see, I think every viewpoint about the future vis-a-vis God is speculation, including my own, and anyone else's, except for things revealed to us in scripture or by visions. I take it for granted when I hear people saying God can 'move through time to the future and see what happened' they are saying their speculations, even if they don't acknowledge that is a speculative idea, a theory. But if you wanted mine, I think God designed some things to be unpredictable, and He didn't fail in that. That's not even slightly like saying He can't know key things about the future though!
 
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Halbhh

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logically show how it would be impossible for the future to be set in stone and man to have free will
We agree perfectly on that logic. But, I do not assume naturalism though!
 
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Halbhh

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Yet, you turn around and put God in our time frame, suggesting our future is also future for God.
Ah!

I get it -- it seemed as if my speculative viewpoint was being claimed to be instead Truth (!??). No. :) It's definitely a speculative view, a theory, just like any other theory we hear on the future here that isn't simply scripture.

When people say things like "God moves through time" they are totally speculating, but some may have heard it 2nd hand from some theology thinker, and assume it has a basis in the Bible, so we can help them learn otherwise sometimes.
 
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Halbhh

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Yet, you turn around and put God in our time frame
When I say to you I don't assume naturalism, I'm saying to you precisely that I don't assume things like God is somehow constrained by natural laws of physics, nature, including time, "time frame" and such.

Not my assumption, and I won't add it today either. :)

Instead I speculate He intentionally created some things by His design to be unpredictable, because it is a way to fit all His revealed purposes as He has communicated to us in scripture.

There's nothing wrong with anyone guessing about something, as long as they keep in mind what is guessing and what is scripture, and of course clearly tell others it's their guess, such as "my guess is" or "my viewpoint is" or "I think that", etc.

One thing I hope for here -- others will realize what things they think are actually just someone's guesses (even if centuries old).
 
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Dave L

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I'm attempting to paraphrase your post as accurately as I can, and would like you to review this paraphrase, to see if it is what you meant. It might be challenging to understand my particular language wording (just like for anyone's). :) So, I might repeat some things in a different wording to help make it more likely my intended sense of meaning is clear enough. You are using the phrase 'free will' differently than I ever have, and that's the most challenging part for me to get accurately, so I'm using a lot of wording to try to say what I think you mean. Altogether, it's a translation work. So, please bear with me.



[translation/paraphrase] --

Self-will/independence/self-righteousness permeates the world as far as it concerns morality/principles/systems of moral law. Morals/principles become a way people evaluate their own righteousness. Self-will/independence/self-righteousness is in play wherever moralism exists.



[translation/paraphrase] --

In the Old Testament[Old Covenant], God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on will power [non-translation note: and we know also on atonement through sacrifices, since He already knew they would at least stumble repeatedly and needed a system of atonement]. But a problem develops when we try to import accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself willpower and justify-self-on-basis-of-law(?) into the New Covenant. God did away with justify-self-on-basis-of-law(?) and self-will/independence/self-righteousness has no place. So if we keep self-will/independence/self-righteousness--moralism-self-righteousness, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into self-will/independence/self-righteousness And God’s grace into self-righteousness-moralism works [as distinct from the actual works Christ commands directly to us?].



[translation/paraphrase] --

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. [Hallelujah!] Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself-without-the-Spirit-guiding-us (?), we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into accomplish-your-own-righteousness/do-it-yourself-without-the-Spirit-guiding-us works.

------------------
Does this seem accurate so far? Help correct any mistranslations please.
Very well written. I think we need to stress that good people don't need law. And bad people under law think they are good because they don't steal even though they want to. So it is this mindset that tries to turn the gospel into law and grace into works. Salvation to them is nothing more than a self-righteous forcing of the wicked flesh to obey a gospel they perceive to be law, even though it is not.
 
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Hammster

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When I say to you I don't assume naturalism, I'm saying to you precisely that I don't assume things like God is somehow constrained by natural laws of physics, nature, including time, "time frame" and such.

Not my assumption, and I won't add it today either. :)

Instead I speculate He intentionally created some things by His design to be unpredictable, because it is a way to fit all His revealed purposes as He has communicated to us in scripture.

There's nothing wrong with anyone guessing about something, as long as they keep in mind what is guessing and what is scripture, and of course clearly tell others it's their guess, such as "my guess is" or "my viewpoint is" or "I think that", etc.

One thing I hope for here -- others will realize what things they think are actually just someone's guesses (even if centuries old).
If you and bling would spend time in scripture, you’d have these answers about God’s omniscience.
 
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Halbhh

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If you and bling would spend time in scripture, you’d have these answers about God’s omniscience.
I'm reading through the Bible for the 3rd time and am really enjoying Proverbs. What scriptures would you like me to see? (again) (I assume you don't imagine I think God cannot do what scripture says!)

For yourself, have you read through Isaiah chapter 46 fully, trying to get the full sense of all the wording? (to hear it all, without dropping some words like "will do" and "bring about" and such -- which are highly meaningful aren't they about how God causes a certain future to happen) It's good to see more than one translation. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version
 
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Halbhh

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Very well written. I think we need to stress that good people don't need law. And bad people under law think they are good because they don't steal even though they want to. So it is this mindset that tries to turn the gospel into law and grace into works. Salvation to them is nothing more than a self-righteous forcing of the wicked flesh to obey a gospel they perceive to be law, even though it is not.
It can be confusing to use the word 'law' without saying which law you mean, since Paul uses it 2 very different ways, (see for instance Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 6 - New International Version for a way different than in the early chapters of Romans). But we agree that not all people realize the truths best laid out in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, and it's such an key message, a way of saying the gospel. It's so well worded to aid those not getting that yet.
 
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I'm reading through the Bible for the 3rd time and am really enjoying Proverbs. What scriptures would you like me to see? (again) (I assume you don't imagine I think God cannot do what scripture says!)

For yourself, have you read through Isaiah chapter 46 fully, trying to get the full sense of all the wording? (to hear it all, without dropping some words like "will do" and "bring about" and such -- which are highly meaningful aren't they about how God causes a certain future to happen) It's good to see more than one translation. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version
I stand corrected.
 
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Dig4truth

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Bling: “I realize you believe in free will and I did read 309, but you like most who belief in free will, cannot give any possible way for God to know the “future” perfectly and man to be able to choose otherwise. It is all left to some “mysterious way” only God could figure out. That is not a strong answer for those who can logically show how it would be impossible for the future to be set in stone and man to have free will (I get into discussions with Open View believers about this same thing.“

God knows the end from the beginning. (Isa 46:9-11)

God is outside of time. If not He could not be eternal and the Scripture clearly defines God as eternal. So a man can choose whatever he desires and God will know it before the man even chooses it. That is what Scripture teaches.

So free will and God knowing what we will choose are not incompatible at all.
 
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Dig4truth

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Halbhh: “It can be confusing to use the word 'law' without saying which law you mean, since Paul uses it 2 very different ways, (see for instance Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 6 - New International Version for a way different than in the early chapters of Romans)


That’s a very good point. If anyone is interested in learning more about this I would highly suggest the following video;

 
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bling

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I could come up with a lot of different ways, speculative. And, see, I think every viewpoint about the future vis-a-vis God is speculation, including my own, and anyone else's, except for things revealed to us in scripture or by visions. I take it for granted when I hear people saying God can 'move through time to the future and see what happened' they are saying their speculations, even if they don't acknowledge that is a speculative idea, a theory. But if you wanted mine, I think God designed some things to be unpredictable, and He didn't fail in that. That's not even slightly like saying He can't know key things about the future though!
I do not see God "moving through time", since He is already there at all times for humans similar to God being every where at the same time.
 
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bling

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Ah!

I get it -- it seemed as if my speculative viewpoint was being claimed to be instead Truth (!??). No. :) It's definitely a speculative view, a theory, just like any other theory we hear on the future here that isn't simply scripture.

When people say things like "God moves through time" they are totally speculating, but some may have heard it 2nd hand from some theology thinker, and assume it has a basis in the Bible, so we can help them learn otherwise sometimes.
You do belief the same God who existed at the beginning of time is the God which will exist at the end of time, unchanged?
The question is: "Did God have to get there with us or was he always there?
 
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bling

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When I say to you I don't assume naturalism, I'm saying to you precisely that I don't assume things like God is somehow constrained by natural laws of physics, nature, including time, "time frame" and such.

Not my assumption, and I won't add it today either. :)

Instead I speculate He intentionally created some things by His design to be unpredictable, because it is a way to fit all His revealed purposes as He has communicated to us in scripture.

There's nothing wrong with anyone guessing about something, as long as they keep in mind what is guessing and what is scripture, and of course clearly tell others it's their guess, such as "my guess is" or "my viewpoint is" or "I think that", etc.

One thing I hope for here -- others will realize what things they think are actually just someone's guesses (even if centuries old).
I think there is very limited unpredictable choices and only those limited to the need for man to fulfill his earthly object and this is because God is Love, just, fair, honest and sinless. Let me give you a controversial example: Adam and Eve would have the same "chance" as I have had to fulfill the same earthly objective, so that means lots of manipulation of the circumstances by God to provide that choice. All mature adults (which might be a very limited group since some never have the opportunity to mature to the point of making their autonomous free will choice.), have the choice to accept help from the Creator of the universe or reject God's help.
 
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Halbhh

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Naturalism would also include God being limited to human time and thus the present.
Yes! But, when someone asserts another idea about the future, such as that God 'goes to the future to look', or 'is already there' or 'is present to all times', or dozens of other such possibilities, those are speculations also.... Since every last idea on that is speculation, the best we can do in our speculation is try to have one that fits all scripture, and that does not (usually inadvertently) happen to contradict some scriptures. Very often people have heard an idea, and assumed it's biblical, but it reality it's merely a theory someone came up with. It's even more beyond our ken yet though -- what we think is good logic may be irrelevant, because our notions of how things work are, as Paul wrote almost 2,000 years ago, 1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. -- and this I think will always remain the case, until He returns.
 
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