Racism Takes an "L"

NotreDame · Jul 8, 2019

The IbanezerScrooge said:
The census is not designed to determine citizenship, only to count heads and collect some demographic data, which, up to this point has not included whether the person to whom the head is attached is a legal citizen.

Compel

Revealed: Trump Officials Trying to Rig Elections for Whites

The claim “which, up to this point has not included whether the person to whom the head is attached is a legal citizen“ is demonstrably false.

The 1950s census contained a question(s) regarding citizenship. You can read the form online.

The long form census questionnaire, as it’s called, has included a question(s) regarding citizenship since 1970, when and where the long form has been used.

The IbanezerScrooge · Jul 8, 2019

NotreDame said:
The claim “which, up to this point has not included whether the person to whom the head is attached is a legal citizen“ is demonstrably false.

The 1950s census contained a question(s) regarding citizenship. You can read the form online.

The long form census questionnaire, as it’s called, has included a question(s) regarding citizenship since 1970, when and where the long form has been used.

Good catch. I stand corrected.

hislegacy · Jul 8, 2019

What is the purpose for the census?

The United States Census is a national survey conducted every ten years to enumerate the population for taxation and political representation.

The survey is conducted by the Bureau of the Census, also known as the United States Census Bureau, and is mandatory for all U.S. citizens. The purpose of the census is to collect statistical data about U.S. citizens to determine the appropriate division of Senate house seats and provide a basis for apportioning federal taxes and funding among states.

Did you catch that?

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
I have, at length.

Then why did you make claims contrary to both the stated intent of the architect of the plan and the assessment of the government agency tasked with implementing it?

What you keep calling "racist" is simply a detraction from a massive amount of people entering the country illegally and us failing to handle it. I invite you to share with me your thoughts as to why such a vast amount of people suddenly thought it okay to attempt to break our laws; and give a slap in the face to the people who worked hard to get into our country via legal means.

What are you talking about? Why do you keep bringing up illegal immigration? The proposed question asks whether or not the respondent is a citizen. It makes no distinction at all about whether or not the they're in the country legally. You know that there are ways to be in the country legally, while also not being a citizen, right?

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2019

hislegacy said:
What is the purpose for the census?

The United States Census is a national survey conducted every ten years to enumerate the population for taxation and political representation.

The survey is conducted by the Bureau of the Census, also known as the United States Census Bureau, and is mandatory for all U.S. citizens. The purpose of the census is to collect statistical data about U.S. citizens to determine the appropriate division of Senate house seats and provide a basis for apportioning federal taxes and funding among states.

Did you catch that?

I caught that you didn't bother to find the actual law and, instead, just quoted some random website.

The actual law doesn't make any distinction about citizenship when it comes to who has to answer:

[USC07] 13 USC Ch. 7: OFFENSES AND PENALTIES

SUBCHAPTER II—OTHER PERSONS
§221. Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers
(a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.

98cwitr · Jul 8, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
Then why did you make claims contrary to both the stated intent of the architect of the plan and the assessment of the government agency tasked with implementing it?

Because I find no evidence of racism. It's not racist to stop illegal immigration. It's not racist to ensure that the children being accompanied by adults are given food, water, and verified that the adults are in fact their parents while the adults are identified and processed; because race isn't a factor. There are multiple races illegally immigrating into the US, and the law doesn't discriminate based on race.

What are you talking about? Why do you keep bringing up illegal immigration? The proposed question asks whether or not the respondent is a citizen. It makes no distinction at all about whether or not the they're in the country legally.

I keep bringing up illegal immigration because it's pertinent and on topic to the OP. You can't be a citizen and illegally in the country.

You know that there are ways to be in the country legally, while also not being a citizen, right?

Sure, but those folks don't have rights to vote in national elections, and in my opinion, shouldn't have rights to vote in any election. That said, I am for immigration reform and streamlining the identification process: No ID, No entry. I'm also over removing the incentives that bring about illegal immigration in the first place over building a wall. I am for the citizenship question and find no valid argument as to why it can't be on next year's census.

Willie T · Jul 8, 2019

SummerMadness said:
2020 Census Won’t Have Citizenship Question as Trump Administration Drops Effort

We must not forget why this question was to be added:
Deceased G.O.P. Strategist's Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question

This scheme was designed to dilute the representation of Hispanics in order to increase representation for non-Hispanic whites. Such blatant actions are unconscionable and the fact that members of the administration lied under oath about this scheme needs to be investigated.

The question was NOT a person's ethnicity, but rather, if they are a citizen of the USA.

SummerMadness · Jul 8, 2019

Willie T said:
The question was NOT a person's ethnicity, but rather, if they are a citizen of the USA.

And if you read the article, you would see the issue is not about the wording of the question...

Sparagmos · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
I think you need to provide evidence of that before making such claims. Otherwise, you're committing libel and slander.

You don’t know the definitions of libel and slander. Funny, I haven’t seen you make that accusation towards any of the conservatives here who express their opinions on other people’s motives without providing evidence!

SummerMadness · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
I have, at length. What you keep calling "racist" is simply a detraction from a massive amount of people entering the country illegally and us failing to handle it. I invite you to share with me your thoughts as to why such a vast amount of people suddenly thought it okay to attempt to break our laws; and give a slap in the face to the people who worked hard to get into our country via legal means.

Attempting to get an undercount in communities with racial minorities in order to increase the voting power of non-Hispanic whites is racist.

SummerMadness · Jul 8, 2019

NotreDame said:
The claim “which, up to this point has not included whether the person to whom the head is attached is a legal citizen“ is demonstrably false.

The 1950s census contained a question(s) regarding citizenship. You can read the form online.

The long form census questionnaire, as it’s called, has included a question(s) regarding citizenship since 1970, when and where the long form has been used.

That is irrelevant. The reason for adding the citizenship question was to cause an undercount in immigrant communities in order to give non-Hispanic whites more voting power. Everything, including the false reason they concocted to argue why they were adding the question, was racially motivated. That there was a citizenship question previously doesn't matter as the current motivation for adding the question was racist.

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
Because I find no evidence of racism.

How hard have you looked?

This is the conclusion from Exhibit D in Kravitz v Dept of Commerce. This comes from Hofeller's own computer:

CONCLUSIONS

• A shift from a redistricting population based determined using total population to adult population is radical departure from the federal “one person, one vote” rule presently used in the United States.

• Without a question on citizenship being included on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire, the use of citizen voting age population is functionally unworkable. Case 1:18-cv-02921-JMF Document 595-1 Filed 05/31/19 Page 62 of 126 Page 9 of 9

• The Obama Administration and congressional Democrats would probably be extremely hostile to the addition of a citizenship question on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire.

• The chances of a U. S. Supreme Court’s mandate to add a citizenship question to the 2020 Decennial Census are not high.

• A switch to the use of citizen voting age population as the redistricting population base for redistricting would be advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites.

• A proposal to use CVAP can be expected to provoke a high degree of resistance from Democrats and the major minority groups in the nation.

That document and others can be found here:

The Hofeller Files - Common Cause

https://www.commoncause.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-05-31-595-1-Unredacted-Exhibits.pdf

The guy who architected the plan said that it would be advantageous to white people.

Earlier in that same document, there is this:

The other important topic to address are the political ramifications of using CVAP as the redistricting population standard for one person, one vote compliance. Would the gain of GOP voting strength be worth the alienation of Latino voters who will perceive a switch to CVAP as an attempt to diminish their voting strength? That, however, is not the subject of this study

The end goal of this question was to facilitate redistricting in a way that favored Republicans. They knew it was going to disenfranchise Hispanics and they didn't care.

It's not racist to stop illegal immigration.

THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

I keep bringing up illegal immigration because it's pertinent and on topic to the OP. You can't be a citizen and illegally in the country.

No, it is not pertinent to the topic or to the OP.

Sure, but those folks don't have rights to vote in national elections, and in my opinion, shouldn't have rights to vote in any election. That said, I am for immigration reform and streamlining the identification process: No ID, No entry. I'm also over removing the incentives that bring about illegal immigration in the first place over building a wall. I am for the citizenship question and find no valid argument as to why it can't be on next year's census.

Again, what are you talking about? The census doesn't give anybody a right to vote. The census doesn't even have anything to do with voting beyond its impact on redistricting (which is what this whole fight is about).

98cwitr · Jul 8, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
How hard have you looked?

This is the conclusion from Exhibit D in Kravitz v Dept of Commerce. This comes from Hofeller's own computer:

That document and others can be found here:

The Hofeller Files - Common Cause

https://www.commoncause.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-05-31-595-1-Unredacted-Exhibits.pdf

The guy who architected the plan said that it would be advantageous to white people.

And so is sun screen, but that doesn't make sun screen racist. It's also advantageous to citizens of the US of all races and ethnicities.

Earlier in that same document, there is this:

The end goal of this question was to facilitate redistricting in a way that favored Republicans. They knew it was going to disenfranchise Hispanics and they didn't care.

Because municipalities and some states permit or fail to bar illegal immigrants from voting in elections. This is a power grab via widened voter base. It's plain as day. The real issue is that Dems are hurting so bad for votes they're willing to do illegal activity to obtain them. They should be arrested and charged; especially Cory Booker who just committed immigration fraud.

THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

It has everything to do with illegal immigration and yelling in all caps doesn't make it any less true.

No, it is not pertinent to the topic or to the OP.

Well, myself and a few others disagree with that opinion.

Again, what are you talking about? The census doesn't give anybody a right to vote. The census doesn't even have anything to do with voting beyond its impact on redistricting (which is what this whole fight is about).

The census grants representation in the House; which if more blue states can get more bodies in House chairs they can continue their usurpation efforts.

SummerMadness · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
And so is sun screen, but that doesn't make sun screen racist. It's also advantageous to citizens of the US of all races and ethnicities.

Because municipalities and some states permit or fail to bar illegal immigrants from voting in elections. This is a power grab via widened voter base. It's plain as day. The real issue is that Dems are hurting so bad for votes they're willing to do illegal activity to obtain them. They should be arrested and charged; especially Cory Booker who just committed immigration fraud.

It has everything to do with illegal immigration and yelling in all caps doesn't make it any less true.

Well, myself and a few others disagree with that opinion.

The census grants representation in the House; which if more blue states can get more bodies in House chairs they can continue their usurpation efforts.

This has nothing to do with illegal immigration, you keep repeating this as if it is relevant. Being a non-citizen does not mean one should not be counted, you count by the number of people, not the number of citizens. Thus any discussion of illegal immigrants is irrelevant as it about the number of people, not the whether someone is a citizen or green card holder. Moreover, you are ignoring the racist plans created increase the voting power of non-Hispanic whites, their actions followed the very plan they laid out.

Kaon · Jul 8, 2019

Sparagmos said:
This line of thinking is ignorant of the situation, and a straw man. We’re not saying the detention centers are the same as NAZI concentration camps, we are saying they ARE concentration camps, and historians who have studied concentration camps agree. Nobody was gassed in the Japanese internment camps, either, but they were still concentration camps.

Exactly.

You don't have to murder 6,000,000 people to be qualified as a concentration camp, and we shouldn't wait until 6,000,000 people are murdered until we call it what it is.

98cwitr · Jul 8, 2019

SummerMadness said:
This has nothing to do with illegal immigration, you keep repeating this as if it is relevant. Being a non-citizen does not mean one should not be counted, you count by the number of people, not the number of citizens. Thus any discussion of illegal immigrants is irrelevant as it about the number of people, not the whether someone is a citizen or green card holder. Moreover, you are ignoring the racist plans created increase the voting power of non-Hispanic whites, their actions followed the very plan they laid out.

I think that constitutes libel. I don't believe that for a second. If they were trying to be racist, wouldn't there have been different measures to ensure that race was a factor? I don't see any. I don't think ICE cares what color your skin is, but whether or not you're entering this country illegally. They're trying to turn Texas (primary target as it has 38 electoral votes), Arizona and New Mexico blue so they can get more House seats; and if they can bolster the population numbers, they can gain a stranglehold on the entire Legislative Branch. We're done for then...America would be toast.

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
Because municipalities and some states permit or fail to bar illegal immigrants from voting in elections.

Who does this? More to the point - who does it on any kind of scale worth worrying about?

This is a power grab via widened voter base. It's plain as day. The real issue is that Dems are hurting so bad for votes they're willing to do illegal activity to obtain them. They should be arrested and charged;

This administration tried to illegally add this question to the census; they lied to the courts about the justification for the question; and Trump has talked openly about trying to find ways to circumvent SCOTUS' decision regarding it.

And somehow this is the Democrats' fault? Somehow they're the ones acting illegally? Your gaslighting game is strong.

especially Cory Booker who just committed immigration fraud.

What are you talking about?

98cwitr · Jul 8, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
Who does this? More to the point - who does it on any kind of scale worth worrying about?

Newsweek is even left leaning: Immigrants are getting the right to vote in cities across America, which is Trump's worst nightmare

As well as NBC: San Francisco allows undocumented immigrants to vote in school elections

https://nypost.com/2016/02/22/new-bill-could-give-illegal-aliens-voting-rights-in-new-york-city/

FACT CHECK: Did California Pass a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal Elections?

This administration tried to illegally add this question to the census; they lied to the courts about the justification for the question; and Trump has talked openly about trying to find ways to circumvent SCOTUS' decision regarding it.

But We, the American People, vastly support the question being on the census. Either our government is going to be a republic, or democracy has already been usurped by activist judges:

Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on Census | National Review

And somehow this is the Democrats' fault? Somehow they're the ones acting illegally? Your gaslighting game is strong.

The efforts to place illegal immigration above the needs of American citizens seems an obivous position after witnessing the DNC debates.

What are you talking about?

Democratic presidential candidate Cory Booker escorts migrants in Juárez to El Paso

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2019

98cwitr said:
Newsweek is even left leaning: Immigrants are getting the right to vote in cities across America, which is Trump's worst nightmare

"Non-citizen" != illegal

As well as NBC: San Francisco allows undocumented immigrants to vote in school elections

Ok, school board only. So what?

https://nypost.com/2016/02/22/new-bill-could-give-illegal-aliens-voting-rights-in-new-york-city/

This article is from 2016 and only claims that it was talked about. I don't see anywhere that it was even put up for a vote, much less enacted. Recently, NY gave illegals the right to get a drivers license, but that doesn't permit them to vote.

FACT CHECK: Did California Pass a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal Elections?

Are you arguing that this qualifies as "fail[ing] to bar" them from voting? Because it quite clearly states that the law doesn't allow them to vote.

Either our government is going to be a republic, or democracy has already been usurped by activist judges:

Spare me the hyperbole. These aren't activist judges. The Trump administration lied and every court the argued before found they violated the law.

Democratic presidential candidate Cory Booker escorts migrants in Juárez to El Paso

He escorted them to a US port of entry, where they were handed over to and processed by immigration agents. That's 100% legal. By claiming he committed immigration fraud, you either lied or you just don't know what you're talking about. Either way, it's cool to see a mod spreading falsehoods about a politician he doesn't like (does that constitute flaming?) who's trying to help alleged sexual assault victims seek asylum. :oldthumbsup:

98cwitr · Jul 8, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
"Non-citizen" != illegal

True! But illegals = non-citizens

Ok, school board only. So what?

What you call a "school board" is starting to look more like propaganda machines.

This article is from 2016 and only claims that it was talked about. I don't see anywhere that it was even put up for a vote, much less enacted. Recently, NY gave illegals the right to get a drivers license, but that doesn't permit them to vote.

Updated: https://nypost.com/2019/06/18/law-g...s-drivers-licenses-could-lead-to-voter-fraud/

Looks like it went through.

Are you arguing that this qualifies as "fail[ing] to bar" them from voting? Because it quite clearly states that the law doesn't allow them to vote.

Did you read the lawsuit link from 2018? Golden State Settles Suit Over Motor-Voter Rules

Spare me the hyperbole. These aren't activist judges. The Trump administration lied and every court the argued before found they violated the law.

I'm not sure if the admin lied or not; but what I do know is that the American people, at least the majority, support and see value in having that question on the census. I also understand it doesn't prevent people lying and simply checking the box anyway.

He escorted them to a US port of entry, where they were handed over to and processed by immigration agents. That's 100% legal. By claiming he committed immigration fraud, you either lied or you just don't know what you're talking about. Either way, it's cool to see a mod spreading falsehoods about a politician he doesn't like (does that constitute flaming?) who's trying to help alleged sexual assault victims seek asylum.

All 5 of the people he brought back across had already been deported once:

Booker leads deported immigrants back across US border, blames Trump

That's fraud.

Racism Takes an "L"

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