Orthodox and Catholic prayers are Biblical

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dms1972

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On what basis do you call them 'vain'? I've heard this a lot, but never with any greater ultimate justification than "they repeat it, so it's bad." That seems to be what you're saying in reply #137 above me about "20 prayers repeated in private" versus "one from the heart". Where on earth do you get the idea that any repeated prayer is not thereby prayed from the heart?


Repeating Prayers can be said with all sorts of distractions going through ones mind, The mind can just as easily wander during repetitions for some people.

A lot depends on ones theology of prayer, why one thinks God attends to peoples prayers in the first place? That was what Jesus seems to have been getting at.

I don't see anything wrong with praying set devotions, one is then repeating something one had committed to memory, and I disagree with those who say prayer must always be extemporaneous,

But as I have said in a later post, I leave it for catholics and others to decide how they perform their devotions.
 
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dms1972

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Getting back to the thread title: Catholic and Orthodox Prayers are Biblical.

Then all the OP mentions is the hail Mary!!

I mean what are we talking about? There are thousands of Catholic and Orthodox prayers, and does the OP thinks he can justify all their content because half of the Hail Mary was said by the angel Gabriel in the Annunciation. Seriously???

As I asked were did the other half come from?

Maybe many of those thousands of Catholic and Orthodox Prayers are Biblical, but come on people, this is no argument for that. Nor is it possible to discuss something so sweeping in a forum thread.

Almost, I say almost looks like a bait and switch, but maybe unintentional?
 
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W2L

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Repetitive prayers aren't an issue, it's VAIN repetitions that are a sin. The Pharisees would stand on corners crying out repeatedly for others to see.
the way I read it, vain means useless. God already knows what we need before we ask so asking multiple times is useless.
 
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dms1972

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No way I am getting involved in this thread considering it's going to be a replay of the 'Catholicism?' thread that went so badly.

I think that is wise, I am leaving it myself at this point also, will be more alert to this sort of thread and not get involved in the future.
 
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FenderTL5

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"for there is one God and one Mediator between God and Mankind, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

I am aware other christians may differ with me on this, and it don't want to give offence, but it would be remiss of me not to present these scriptures.e.
There's no offense taken.
It would be equally remiss to fail to mention that Orthodoxy holds very fast to the teaching that it is only through Christ that we have salvation. We also recognize that Jesus is the One Mediator. He is the Only Begotten, Light of Light, True God of True God, who for us men and our salvation came down from heaven and was Incarnate... He lived and taught, it was He was crucified, buried and rose on the third day. He Ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and will come again. It is this that makes Him the One Mediator. God becoming man, opening up the path of our redemption. No one else has done, nor can do this. This is orthodox.
You seem to confuse Jesus the One Mediator with intercession, praying for others.
If that's the path you choose to take; then you need to stop taking prayer requests post haste. Because by praying for others you have set yourself up as the mediator between God and man.
I don't think that was your intent. You can inform if it was.
 
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Not David

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Getting back to the thread title: Catholic and Orthodox Prayers are Biblical.

Then all the OP mentions is the hail Mary!!

I mean what are we talking about? There are thousands of Catholic and Orthodox prayers, and does the OP thinks he can justify all their content because half of the Hail Mary was said by the angel Gabriel in the Annunciation. Seriously???

As I asked were did the other half come from?

Maybe those thousands of Catholic and Orthodox Prayers are Biblical, but come on people, this is no argument for that.

Almost, I say almost looks like a bait and switch, but probably unintentional.
Maybe it wasn't the best example, but there are a lot of psalms (which are prayers) in Orthodox services.
 
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dzheremi

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That the mind can wonder is true of absolutely everything. This is not a defense of the baseless criticism that repetition is by nature 'vain'.

Notice how the criticism is walked back to "this could happen", which is a much more mild observation than passing judgment on another's prayer as 'vain' based on its outward appearance without even knowing why it is like that. I dare say that once you know why you are doing what you do, then nothing can ever be seeing as 'vain' again. You can then be seen as lazy if you let your mind wander, but that's why so much of Orthodox practice is focused on being present in mind, body, and spirit during prayer, and having all aspects of existence engaged in the prayer itself, via the prescribed words, physical actions, use of icons, incense, etc.

So I don't even disagree with our friend here, now that the criticism has been softened considerably (and maybe that's how you always meant it, which is fine, but it didn't come out that way at first, so forgive me for not understanding you), but it still misses the mark insofar as this type of criticism is no more valid for Orthodox and Catholic ritual prayer than it would be for literally anything else in the world, because the problem it is assumed to bring about is in actuality a human problem that exists everywhere. If anything, the Orthodox prayer life is the antidote to it, not a manifestation of it. "Father we just wanna" prayers tend to ramble on and on to no good end, as it is actually surprisingly hard to pray without falling into some kind of ritualized/set pattern -- hence I can generalize the type of 'extemporaneous' prayer I am referring to by its usual first line, and I'm going to guess that everyone here will know exactly what I am talking about, since that itself is one form of repetitive prayer by virtue of its having become ritualized/set within an evangelical Protestant/low church context.

So the question is ultimately not "Is this form of prayer good or bad/vain or not", but if you are going to end up following a set pattern anyway because that's how people tend to work (the person who would compose prayer anew every single time he prays is most likely a heretic, as he relies on his own mind rather than what has been left to us), then which is a healthier model -- the ancient ways left to us by the apostles, disciples and other saints who established Christianity in the form of our particular churches, or something that falls out of your brain more or less at random because it feels to you to be more "from the heart" than what others are doing?

I choose the fathers. Others can make whatever choice they'd like to. I'm not the one saying that having another way of praying makes their prayer 'vain', so much as trying to point out the hypocrisy of that (now thankfully diminished) charge coming from anyone who, by virtue of opposing the set prayers on the basis of their repetitiveness alone (rather than theological problems with their content, which would at least be more understandable), shows themselves to have chosen the tradition of themselves instead.

That's nowhere in the Bible. In fact, the Bible states the exact opposite, in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. I don't think our father and master St. Paul the Apostle was advocating any 'vain repetitions' there, or anywhere.
 
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☦Marius☦

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That maybe so, but does God hear 20 prayers repeated in private but not hear one said from the heart? Maybe you can see what I mean, I don't know, there is a problem if we start thinking God hears us because of our "many words". Jesus if I am correct, also mentioned pagan praying, as well as those who like to stand on the street corners, and said we should not babble on like the pagans who think they will be heard because of their "many words".

Also while The Blessed Virgin Mary is an example of submission to God's Word ("Be it unto me according to Thy Word"), I don't believe she has any mediatorial capacity.

"for there is one God and one Mediator between God and Mankind, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

I am aware other christians may differ with me on this, and it don't want to give offence, but it would be remiss of me not to present these scriptures.

Some think it is OK to pray to Mary if it is done in and through Christ, and I kind of get that viewpoint, but its still problematic because we go to Christ not to get to Mary, but to have our prayers presented to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I simply don't see the need to get Mary to relay prayers to her Son at all, and it is also the Holy Spirit who presents our prayers at the Throne of God.

I was hazy on this for quite a while but its becoming a bit clearer to me now.

Don't mean to cause any offence.

I would say he hears both. Reading the psalms everyday in prayer might be repedative, but they help change the heart.

As for Christ as mediator, Christ specifies that Christ is mediator between man and the Father, yet who is mediator between man and Christ? Any Christian can mediate for another Christian before Christ, and he will be the one to judge us not the Father. Mary is prayed to specifically because of the story of the wedding of Cana, where Christ tells his mother it is not yet time to perform such miracles yet he does it anyway out of love for her. Not only that but we have seen throughout Church history that many saints, chiefly the Theotokos and Saint Nicholas have had an active role in saving the faithful from various worldly dangers and temptations. Thousands of stories are recorded in the Synaxarion, or lives of the saints.

And in a second way Christ is the only mediator between God and man in that he is the only being to have both Human and God nature. That makes him literally the median between the two nature's and what I think he was actually trying to say in the passage.
 
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☦Marius☦

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That is a fair point, but my perception (I may be wrong) is that sometimes as part of penance, one may be told to repeat it several times??

The whole Rosary is much longer. I was going to say I thought it was more balanced because it begins with the Our Father and because I thought the Hail Mary was only repeated three times (for faith, hope, and charity). I don't say one should not repeat things when memorising a form of prayer, that is different. Maybe some only say the biblical part? But I see its repeated ten times, then one seems to go through several steps again. Oh well, I certainly am not in the place to question my Catholic brethren's devotions or sincerity, I leave it up to them to decide finally.

But I do feel its important to remind people of Jesus Christ's unique place and role in the story of salvation.

I often find repedative written prayer LESS vain then free prayer as you are reading the same thing every day and concentrating on that. When you are creating your own prayer I feel it is easier to get wordy and proud of your own creation. If I pray from the book of needs they aren't my own words and therefore I can feel no pride in what I am saying. If I need to add a few things sure, but from personal experience when I was a protestant I've heard people get rather complicated with their prayers just because they like hearing themselves pray. When I have a memorized prayer it gives me a chance to actually contemplate the words over the years and it gives them more meaning.

Many Orthodox prayers also teach theology within them, and teach a person how to see God in the correct light.
 
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I often find repedative written prayer Less vain then free prayer as you are reading the same thing every day and concentrating on that. When you are creating your own prayer I feel it is easier to get wordy and proud of your own creation. If I pray from the book of needs they aren't my own words and therefore I can feel no pride in what I am saying. If I need to add a few things sure, but from personal experience when I was a protestant I've heard people get rather complicated with their prayers just because they like hearing themselves pray. When I have a memorized prayer it gives me a chance to actually contemplate the words over the years and it gives them more meaning.

Many Orthodox prayers also teach theology within them, and teach a person how to see God in the correct light.
Wish I could explain my mom that.
 
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FenderTL5

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Also, you cannot get mad since my avatar is Taylor Swift holding icons.
back to the OP and the aside, what is the context of that T.S. photo?
 
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FenderTL5

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Many Orthodox prayers also teach theology within them, and teach a person how to see God in the correct light.
This is even more evident when we go through seasonal prayers...
Even in the times we replace/insert different prayers, there's something to be learned/focused on. Such as the Paschal Troparian taking the place of O Heavenly King through the Ascension and skipping both until Pentecost, bringing back O Heavenly King afterwards...
 
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Not David

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Saying protestants and evangelicals hate Mary is attacking a straw man. The concerns some protestants and evangelicals have is that they interpreter the scriptures as recording that Jesus had siblings. Also no provisions seem to have been set forth that give her near Goddess status that she has among some of the faithful (no offence intended) The point of this whole thread was to promote praying to Mary. Asking about the consequences of abstaining from the Orthodox perspective is spreading vitriol?
The thread was about Orthodox and Catholic prayers, I just gave "Hail Mary" as an example.
Also, Marius told you about the perspective. Also having an Orthodox perspective does not make the person Orthodox.
 
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The thread was about Orthodox and Catholic prayers, I just gave "Hail Mary" as an example.
Also, Marius told you about the perspective. Also having an Orthodox perspective does not make the person Orthodox.
I may me born again, but I wasn't born yesterday, and am impervious to your Jedi semantics, young Skywalker. :yawn: But thanks to Marius for the clarification.
 
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dms1972

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I would say he hears both. Reading the psalms everyday in prayer might be repeative, but they help change the heart.

As for Christ as mediator, Christ specifies that Christ is mediator between man and the Father, yet who is mediator between man and Christ?


You are talking about reading a psalm as part of a daily devotion, yes? That is not repeating something as a mantra.

You have moved the issue we were talking about: repeating something ten or twenty times in a row, to something said once (such as a psalm) as part of a daily devotion.

Yes Psalms do help change the heart by the Holy Spirit.

Half of the Hail Mary is biblical : "Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus"

It is up to the individual devotee to ask themselves why are they saying something over and over. Do they hope to be heard for their "many words", or are they trusting in Christ, His finished Work, and Person as the only Mediator.

As I have said I wish to leave this thread as it does not seem to be about its stated topic, but about very specific form of devotion.

To your question I would only say no Mediator is needed between mankind and Christ, for Christ is not some being that is neither God nor a man, but has shared our humanity while yet being the Son of God: True God and True man.

"Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared their humanity so that by death He might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels He helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason He had to to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that He might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because He himself suffered when He was tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted."

Hebrews 2:14-18
 
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dms1972

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Any Christian can mediate for another Christian before Christ, and he will be the one to judge us not the Father.

They are not mediating, both can come to the Lord in prayer. Christian prayer is really praying with another believer, although people do ask 'for' prayers. Evangelists don't mediate either, they present the Gospel which is precisely telling people to turn from darkness to light, biding people to come to Jesus Christ, to trust Him, His Person and Work. Yes there is an intercessors work (a standing in a gap when a fellow christian is weak, or fallen into sin) but really the one doing this is seeking to join in intercession with Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Intercession is not Mediation. In a battle if a soldier is wounded by enemy fire, his buddies I understand rally to his side, put down a layer of suppressing fire, till he can get out of danger! Christians are to do this for each other in prayer. :)
 
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W2L

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Maybe it wasn't the best example, but there are a lot of psalms (which are prayers) in Orthodox services.
I never read a psalm prayer written to any man, only to God. Catholic prayers go beyond any scripture when they pray to man instead of God.
 
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