Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

Peter J Barban

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The real question is why you assume 99.9999% of believers in history take your viewpoint.
Because, these women don't go topless, even when it's legal. Nor do they try to make toplessness more acceptable. Their actions prove their belief.

So, now how about answering my question on why the vast majority is wrong. What are your assumptions?
 
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blackhole

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Because, these women don't go topless, even when it's legal. Nor do they try to make toplessness more acceptable. Their actions prove their belief.

Which women don't? I can give you a reference that shows a sufficient supply of women that do (not inappropriate content).
 
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Peter J Barban

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Which women don't? I can give you a reference that shows a sufficient supply of women that do (not inappropriate content).
This is the kind of reply that goads me. If you can't understand my plain meaning, then you don't deserve future discussion.

Why don't you understand what nearly everyone else does?
 
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blackhole

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This is the kind of reply that goads me. If you can't understand my plain meaning, then you don't deserve future discussion.

I'm sincerely happy to hear that I'm too stupid to warrant any more of your attention. :)
 
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Peter J Barban

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I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.

I want to challenge my viewpoint, and the quality of my arguments.
Prove me wrong, using scripture or rationality that's based on Christian principles in order to do so.

The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive, therefore you get to argue first.
There is a flaw in your premise!

1. You state that "The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive,"

2. And you are asserting a positive: "I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless."

3. The burden of proof, therefore, lies with you to prove your position.
 
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StillGods

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How do you conflate grossness with immorality?

Also, quoting myself again:

A) Breasts are different from men’s chests

A common argument is that women’s breasts are different from men’s chests, and that’s why it’s wrong to expose them. However, men’s chests are just as different from women’s chests, as women’s are from men’s. The difference is exactly equal, in both directions: male to female, female to male. It’s indefensible to use men’s bodies as the “acceptable” standard by which we determine any deviation. If we did that, we could say that men’s genitals can be exposed, because … they’re not different from male genitals.


B) Breasts are different from children’s non-sexual bodies

This argument is similar to the last. It uses children as the standard: that is, male and female children have the same chest. After puberty, women grow breasts, and men do not. Thus, it’s a definitively female characteristic, and that’s why it shouldn’t be exposed. However, female breasts are secondary sex characteristics – not primary. Beards are a secondary sex characteristic of men, not primary. If we outlaw breast exposure for this reason, then we should also outlaw beard exposure. Alternatively, we could seek equality by requiring men to either shave, or to wear a beard bra.


C) Celebration

Many young men are excited about reaching puberty and growing a beard. They might be fooled by an old wives tale that shaving your beard makes it grow faster or thicker, so they shave in hope of appearing more mature when it grows back. Once their beard is grown, they may groom it, use good hygiene, and even decorate it. These men are proud of their beards; they’re characteristic of masculinity and adulthood, which are celebratory.

Women are not afforded the same opportunity with their breasts, at least not in the U.S. Although many women show deep cleavage, behaving similarly to the same way that many men do with their beards, they’re stigmatized for violating a taboo. And if they go further and expose areola, they face criminal charges.

This isn’t the case in all cultures. In Zambia, a “breast dance” is practiced (Turner, 1987; Taylor, 2006; both as cited in Bosteen, 2019). And in Nigeria, the Iria Ritual is a coming of age custom for females, in which they bare their breasts (Crespo, Duque, & Zuhlsdorf, 2013; MomoAfrica, n.d.; both as cited in LangLangC, 2019).

In the U.S., we’re teaching men that they should celebrate their adult bodies, and we’re teaching women that they should be ashamed of theirs.​

I find what you've posted distasteful actually.
some things should be treated with discretion, I dont think you may have a grasp on that in some ways, that's not meant as offensive but an observation that you cross lines where modesty itself would dictate they not be crossed and you dont realise it.
it makes me uncomfortable, like topless women would make me very uncomfortable, it's just gross and I dont want to be around that.
 
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Because, these women don't go topless, even when it's legal. Nor do they try to make toplessness more acceptable. Their actions prove their belief.

So, now how about answering my question on why the vast majority is wrong. What are your assumptions?
My girlfriend and I have visited topless beaches in the Caribbean and Europe. She has gone topless every time we have done this, not because she wants to show off but because she likes avoiding tan lines. Why don’t more women go topless? One reason is that it is still illegal in many parts of the US, and even where it is legal women sometimes face arrest. I live in West Virginia where it is perfectly legal for women to go topless, yet a woman who did so was cited by a park ranger a couple years back because he just didn’t like her doing it (what a jerk that guy was). She appealed and won, but that was time taken up in court when I’m sure that she could have been doing better things.
 
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com7fy8

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About what point I am trying to make >
it's acceptable to also desire beauty:

Gen 29:17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.
Genesis 29:31 says Leah was "unloved". And because of this the LORD did not allow Rachel to have children.

So, my point is, included, why did Jacob love his Rachel but not his wife Leah?

Possibly, it was because Rachel was so beautiful and Leah wasn't. Even if it is ok to enjoy her beauty, it would be wrong to discriminate by loving only the beautiful wife, I can see. In any case, the LORD did not approve of Jacob's reason for loving only Rachel!!!

So, what do you think?
 
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Peter J Barban

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My girlfriend and I have visited topless beaches in the Caribbean and Europe. She has gone topless every time we have done this, not because she wants to show off but because she likes avoiding tan lines. Why don’t more women go topless? Well, it is still illegal in many parts of the US, and even where it is legal women sometimes face arrest. I live in West Virginia where it is perfectly legal for women to go topless, yet a woman who did so was cited by a park ranger a couple years back because he just didn’t like her doing it (what a jerk that guy was). She appealed and won, but that was time taken up in court when I’m sure that she could have been doing better things.
Your testimony is irrelevant to both my post and the OP. "Most women" even 99.99% does not imply "all women".
 
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Your testimony is irrelevant to both my post and the OP. "Most women" even 99.99% does not imply "all women".
This is what people do when they cannot address what was said in a post—they just falsely claim that it is irrelevant. What I wrote is perfectly relevant to both your post and the OP. Of course I noticed that you couldn’t bother responding to the reasoning I offered. What I offered is not the only reason, but fear of arrest is certainly a reason why more women don’t go topless.
 
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eventually people realized that a man's pectorals are not sex organs while a woman's mammories are.

as far as those same mammories being used to feed infants, God gave them a dual purpose.

proverbs 5:18-19
But there have been studies showing that women are sexually attracted to a well-proportioned male chest.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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But there have been studies showing that women are sexually attracted to a well-proportioned male chest.

there's been studies that women are sexually attracted to animals. the LORD wouldn't have made a law against such a thing if it didn't happen. there are men who are sexually attracted to a woman's ears, but those aren't sex organs, though they can be seen as an attractive feature of a woman.

a man's only sex organ is his genitals.
 
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there's been studies that women are sexually attracted to animals. the LORD wouldn't have made a law against such a thing if it didn't happen. there are men who are sexually attracted to a woman's ears, but those aren't sex organs, though they can be seen as an attractive feature of a woman.

Where are these huge numbers of women who are sexually attracted to animals? Do you have statistics?

You are ignoring the fact that many women are sexually attracted to the male chest. That doesn’t make the male chest a sex organ, but they are sexually attracted to it.

a man's only sex organ is his genitals.

True for women are well. Breasts are not sex organs, they are secondary sex characteristics.
 
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blackhole

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About what point I am trying to make >

Genesis 29:31 says Leah was "unloved". And because of this the LORD did not allow Rachel to have children.

So, my point is, included, why did Jacob love his Rachel but not his wife Leah?

Possibly, it was because Rachel was so beautiful and Leah wasn't. Even if it is ok to enjoy her beauty, it would be wrong to discriminate by loving only the beautiful wife, I can see. In any case, the LORD did not approve of Jacob's reason for loving only Rachel!!!

So, what do you think?

He was bound to Leah, therefore he had a duty to love her regardless of her appearance.
 
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blackhole

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eventually people realized that a man's pectorals are not sex organs while a woman's mammories are.

as far as those same mammories being used to feed infants, God gave them a dual purpose.

proverbs 5:18-19

The neck is sexually stimulated to a similar degree, and for both genders. Yet, we don't ban neck exposure. See:

Nummenmaa, L., Suvilehto, J. T., Glerean, E., Santtila, P., & Hietanen, J. K. (2016). Topograph of human erogenous zones. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 45, 1207-1216. doi:10.1007/s10508-016-0745-z
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Where are these huge numbers of women who are sexually attracted to animals?

are you claiming there's no such thing as inappropriate behavior with animals? the point is that people have sexual attractions and fetishes towards all sorts of things.

You are ignoring the fact that many women are sexually attracted to the male chest

they're also attracted to a nice haircut and a perfectly symmetrical face and defined jawline. i wouldn't argue that all men should wear hats and masks though.

Breasts are not sex organs,

that would be how scripture describes mammories(proverbs 5:18-19, Ezekiel 23:19-21) , though "sex organ" may be the wrong word. instruments for sexual pleasure would be a better description(along with feeding babies). the point to the thread is whether or not its sin for women to be topless in public.
 
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blackhole

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there's been studies that women are sexually attracted to animals. the LORD wouldn't have made a law against such a thing if it didn't happen. there are men who are sexually attracted to a woman's ears, but those aren't sex organs, though they can be seen as an attractive feature of a woman.

a man's only sex organ is his genitals.

You've reduced sexual attraction to irrelevance.

Therefore, you can't argue that sexual attraction to the breasts is a reason to conceal them.

Are you comfortable with taking that route?
 
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blackhole

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that would be how scripture describes mammories(proverbs 5:18-19, Ezekiel 23:19-21) , though "sex organ" may be the wrong word. instruments for sexual pleasure would be a better description(along with feeding babies). the point to the thread is whether or not its sin for women to be topless in public.

SoS also paints many other body parts as instruments for sexual pleasure.
 
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blackhole

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But there have been studies showing that women are sexually attracted to a well-proportioned male chest.

Yes, as well as legs, buttocks, and genitals (in the study mentioned below). Chests scored the highest among all of those parts, which is ironic; christendom says we can't expose the genitals because of the potential for lust. But among those four parts, the genitals were the least arousing. And, to both genders!

Wildman, R. W., & Wildman, R., W., II. (1976). Note on males’ and females’ preferences for opposite-sex body parts, bust sizes, and bust-revealing clothing. Psychological Reports, 38, 485-486.
 
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