Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

bcbsr said:

There's not much elaboration needed from my former comments about your "list". For most cases what you have done is misconstrue the condition of the saved with the condition to be saved. Almost all those verses are speaking of the indications one has been saved and not of the conditions to be saved.

Verses you misconstrue in this manner:
... Mt 7:23 Jesus said "I NEVER knew you". As such they had never been saved to begin with

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In regards to Matthew 7:23:

Well, the way of having an assurance in knowing the Lord is if a person finds that they are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

So knowing the Lord = Keeping His commandments.
Not knowing the Lord (Whereby Jesus tells a person to depart from Him) = Not keeping His commandments.

Belief Alone Proponents can be broken up into three major groups in regards to sin.


We both agree that those believers (that you do not like to talk about) who are into Hardcore Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief Alone-ism (like George Sodini) are not saved because they believe that a Christian can live in gross amounts of sin as a lifestyle all while having a belief alone on Jesus.

Obviously this is a false Antinomianism gospel. We can agree on that. So if a person accepts this gospel in advance knowing full well that they can sin and still be saved (because they went to this church beforehand for years and they know all about how a believer can sin as much as they want and still be saved), and they accept Jesus as their Savior and have a belief alone on him for salvation, it is sure fire bet that they never knew the Lord because they are accepting a false Antinomian gospel.

It is also possible that the Lord and the Holy Spirit did not come into their life to give them a new heart at the receiving of the gospel based on an evil thing that they would do later (like them shortly thereafter learning that they can commit gross amounts of sin with the thinking they can be saved, and so they take joy in all the evil that they are accustomed to doing). In Acts of the Apostles 8:9-24, we learn that the heart of Simon the sorcerer was not right with God because he tried to pay money so as to have the Spirit and the power thereof.

Also, while Matthew 7:23 may refer to believers who have never known the Lord, it does not mean that there are not other passages that teach believers can fall away temporarily into spiritual death and then become alive again spiritually like James 5:19-20, and the Parable of the Prodigal Son (See: Luke 15:11-32, with a special focus on Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32).

While it is possible that Matthew 7:23 is referring to believers that the Lord had never known the Lord, it may be a statement made by the Lord based on Ezekiel 18:24, too.


Meaning, the Lord no longer remembers the righteousness of a believer who once did righteousness because they have now returned to doing iniquity. According to the verse, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered. Thus it will be as if he never knew him because there are no righteous actions to associate with that person anymore.

1John 2:3-4 "We know that we have come" Again it speaks of behavior as an indicator rather than a cause of salvation.

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Jesus is the source of our salvation (1 John 5:12). So knowing or abiding in God is salvation. So the behavior described in 1 John 2:3-4 is showing whether one knows or abides in the Lord who is the source of salvation.

Many Belief Alone Proponents teach that you only lose rewards and fellowship when you sin, but you don't lose your salvation.

But the Bible teaches that believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved.


In other words, 1 John 2:3 is the fruit of the Lord or proof that a believer knows Jesus and He abides in them. It's the proof in the pudding that they know the Lord and abide in the One (Jesus) who is the source of their eternal life.

The good works they do, or their obedience to God's commands is proof that God lives in them. God is the source of their salvation.

This is why the person who does not keep His commandments and says they know the Lord is a liar, and the truth is not in them. For keeping God's commandments can only be done by the Lord making that to happen through them.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).

I will address the rest of what you had written in my next post (Lord willing).

bcbsr said:

So you gave me a list of verses to which I responded. Then I gave you a list of verses but you insisted that you will not deal with those verses until I deal with your argument concerning 1John which I already dealt with. (Double standard) So once again:

The verses in 1John are not talking about conditions to be saved. They are talking about identifying those who have been saved and subsequently born of God.

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I said I was limited on time. Meaning, I did not have time to reply to them all yet. Please be patient. For patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit, friend.

bcbsr said:

Verses you misconstrue in this manner:
Tit 1:16;

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Titus 1:16 does not say that the person never known the Lord like Matthew 7:23 does. It merely says that they deny God by a lack of works (in the present tense or presently speaking). Again, the key to understanding here is that we behavior is related to knowing God. The behavior is directly tied to the good work the Lord does through a believer's life (Philippians 2:13). The person who does not keep God's commands and says He knows the Lord is a liar and the truth is not in them. So the notion that one can sin (break God's commands on some level) and still be saved (By saying they know the Lord who is the source of their salvation - 1 John 5:12) is an oxymoron.

Note: When I refer to sin and still be saved here, I am referring to Mid Range Belief Alone-ism that says that a believer can sin on occasion and still be saved as long as they generally live a holy life. But I believe this is still a justification of sin (But merely on a much smaller scale or level because the Bible talks about how believers can crucify the affections and lusts - See Galatians 5:24; Note: This is not Sinless Perfectionism, where all minor transgression or faults of character are put away, but it is in reference to the putting away of grievous sin that the Bible does clearly condemn like: Lying, lusting, hating, etc.).

bcbsr said:

Verses you misconstrue in this manner:
Mt 25 verses;

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Matthew 25:21 says that it was their faithfulness that is tied to their entering the joy of the Lord and in being rewarded.

Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why would the Lord confuse us into thinking we had to be faithful to enter the joy of the Lord if that is not what He meant?

If things were as you say: Then the text would say: Enter into the joy of the Lord you who trusted in my finished work alone. But we know that the whole Parable of the Talents is focused on one's performance or lack thereof. For the ones who performed were told to enter God's kingdom, and the one who did not perform was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Note: Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do.

Click on the spoiler button to see what I am talking about:

We learn that in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, that the sheep are those who helped the poor, etc. in this life, and the goats are those who did not help the poor in this life, etc. Some in the Belief Alone Camp have suggested that this is referring to the judgment of nations as a whole and it is not referring to the judgment of individuals. They believe that this is a judgment of nations who will go through the Millennium. But the text does not really say that here. Sure, it refers to nations in Matthew 25. It says,

"before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:32).

But it would be pretty crazy to assume that the Lord would save groups of people based on what you hate so much (Which is works alone salvationism) so that they can go through the Millennium vs. being cast into hell fire. I agree. This is not referring to Works Alone Salvationism. But it is referring to one aspect of the salvation process (Sanctification - which comes after Justification). For when we take the whole Bible into account, we know that we need to have the Lord's mercy and we need to have a trust in His sacrifice and resurrection before we can be faithful or obey the Lord (So as to clean the past slate of sin away).

Also, Jesus said narrow is the way, and few be there that finds it.
Belief Alone-ism is not the narrow way when I look at Sola Scriptura type churches in my neighborhood. In fact, the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that I know of that is truly for "Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation" is Christ's Sanctified Holiness Church that resides on the Eastern seaboard.

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

They are not in the majority.
How do you explain how Belief Alone-ism does not appear to be in the narrow way or path? (See: Matthew 7:13-14).

Sheep are the kind of individuals who follow the Lord and they do not justify sin on any level.

BNR32FAN said:

What you are referring to brother Jason is justification and sanctification. Justification is being counted as right

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I believe the Bible plainly teaches that we are saved by Justification, and Sanctification (and both are a work of God done through the believer via our cooperation):

#1. The Justification Process (This is how we first get saved and it is the basis for the foundation of our faith. This is believing in Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and most often includes calling upon the name of the Lord [Jesus], and seeking forgiveness with Him, so as to be saved. A believer will continue to always believe Jesus is their Savior and they will continue to trust in His death and resurrection for salvation, and if they happen to stumble on rare occasion into sin, they can confess of it, so as to be forgive of it - 1 John 1:9). I believe the word "justified" means to be declared "just" or "righteous." But this is not the only phase or stage in the salvation process. After Justification: A believer then needs to enter the next phase or stage of the salvation process which is:

#2. The Sanctification Process (This is living holy by the working of God within us). I believe all three persons of the Trinity or the Godhead work within the believer so as to obey the Lord and to live holy and to prune out bad things within their lives. Sanctification always flows out of Justification, and not the other way around. We must first make Jesus's sacrifice and resurrection the foundation of our faith before we can enter the Sanctification Process. The word "sanctified" means to purify or to make holy or to free from sin. It symbolizes a cleaning, like with water.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through:


For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

The only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church (I discovered) that believes this way (like me) is:

Christ's Sanctified Holiness Church:

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

They do not beat around the bush, and they state this fact of salvation (that we need both God's grace and holy living as a part of salvation) right away on their main page of their website. Most other churches may appear to be for holiness, but they believe in Wesleyan holiness which still teaches Faith Alone-ism (or Sola Fide).

bcbsr said:

Heb 5:9; John 5:29; 1John 3:10 "This is how we know"

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Well, I am not in disagreement that these verses are talking about how faithful believers know the Lord (after they received Him and the gospel), and nor am I in disagreement that these verses are referring to Sanctification (Which comes after Justification). But like most Belief Alone Proponents, they believe that the regeneration changes their nature to such a point that they will live holy and that there is no free will any longer that they cannot fall away into a lifestyle of grievous sin, and or to never want to serve the Lord again. However, this is not consistent with Scripture. For it is written,

When you read Hebrews 5:9, you should also read Hebrews 10:26 that says if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

When you read John 5:29, you should also read John 6:66, we learn that the many disciples stopped following Jesus. Yet, the many disciples were said to have their names written in Heaven.
Jesus did not chase after them and explain to them that He was speaking metaphorically.
Jesus then addressed his 12 disciples and asked if they wanted to leave, too.
They said to Jesus that He had the words of eternal life.

When you read 1 John 3:10, you also have to read 1 John 1:7 that says IF we walk in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. You also have to read 1 John 1:9, that says IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The word "if" is in there suggesting a possibility and not a matter of fact. John says we need to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin. IF we confess. IF. John is writing to the brethren and he tells them... "IF" you do this... then this happens, etc. It would be redundant or useless information if John told them to do something that they would automatically do as a part of being regenerated.

Also, I am assuming you don't believe you lose your salvation if a believer falls into the sin of lying, or lusting after a woman, or in hating on rare occasion with them later confessing of it. Would I be correct to say that they are saved while they do these sins on occasion? So how often can a believer do these sins on occasion? Can a believer struggle with these sins their whole lives and never change and yet still be saved? Can they confess over and over and hate these sins, and yet continue in them? Or do they need to gain the victory over these sins? If they do gain the victory, what about other grievous sins? Do you not believe that 1 John 1:8 is stating that a believer will always sin at some point again by some future date as a matter of fact? Is that not an agreement with sin by saying that one will sin again as a matter of fact? Yes, it may be occasional sin in your book, but how is justifying a little bit of sin, vs. a lot of sin acceptable to God? Did it not only take one grievous sin by Adam and Eve to be separated spiritually from God?

Anyways, the key difference on our understanding on Hebrews 5:9, John 5:29, and 1 John 3:10 is that:

#1. Belief Alone Proponents suggest that they can sin on occasion, and they will always sin on occasion, and they will be saved as long as they have generally live a holy life (But this holy life is never truly defined). But if one is sinning on occasion as a matter of fact their whole lives, are they truly living a holy and upright life? So good works is mixed in with bad works, and it is not consistent with obedience in Hebrews 5:9, and not consistent with doing good vs. doing evil in John 5:29, and it is not consistent with "not doing righteousness as a part of being of the devil" in 1 John 3:10.

#2. Faith + Works of Faith Proponents (like myself) believe they must walk uprightly, and they do not seek to justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved on occasion, or that they cannot overcome grievous sin in this life. Jesus said, he that sins, is a slave to sin. Obviously he did not say this in favorable way to those who would sin. Jesus is clearly referring to any amount of sin. For Jesus told two people to "sin no more" (John 5:14, and John 8:11). Jesus did not say, "Sin less."

bcbsr said:

I'm in agreement with much of this post of yours I'm responding to. 1John is not about how to get saved. Rather it's about identifying those who have been saved and subsequently born of God and distinguishing them from children of the devil, and particularly among the Christian community. It's about assurance of salvation.

But the Ezekiel passage is talking about Old Covenant righteousness which is performance based, not New Covenant righteousness.

And again 1John 3:9 tells us that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." Thus the fact that they've been born of God apparently means that they are no capable of committing such a sin as would cause them to be separated from God, as also Rom 8:38,39 indicate along with 1John 2:19 So the Ezekiel passage doesn't apply to the saved as it's not a possible scenario in their case under the New Covenant.

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Not so. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness, but he also had to do works of faith like us. For we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Abraham was justified not only by faith (as per Romans 4), but also by his works as James says in James 2. Also, 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. 1 John 3:8 says, he that commits sin is of the devil. John never says that there is a clause of exception for believers to commit occasional sin with the thinking we are saved just because we have a belief on Jesus. Ananias and Sapphira were killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. A great fear came upon the church and all who heard of this. The emotion of fear only makes sense if they knew that they could also fall via their own sin. If they knew that Ananias and Sapphira were saved or they were never saved, they would not experience the emotion of fear. Things have not changed. We are still going to be judged by our works at the judgment according to the New Covenant. This is what Romans 2 is all about. He that sins without the Law shall perish without the Law.

bcbsr said:

The people he's referring to in Titus 1:16 were not true believers. You need to look at the context:

Titus 1:
10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach— and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."
13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

So it's "Christian" like those of the circumcision sect that he was talking about. What did he say about those of the Circumcision sect? "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

So in Titus 1:16 he's referring to false brothers. And were these "false brothers" he was referring to at some point saved and become unsaved? NO! He says that had infiltrated our ranks, indicating they entered the Christian community as false brothers

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Did you ever consider that these false believers could also believe in Jesus and yet they justified sin?

Titus 1:16 sets a standard of conduct that we should not even remotely be close to being like. A person who does not do any good works proves they are not of God. The concept here does not change. A person can deny God by a lack of their own works. This shows that in doing good works is tied in knowing God. That's the whole point.

But you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying we will always sin again on occasion at some point in the future. But Titus 2 says,

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

Not sure you caught what it said.
But Titus 2:14 says that He might redeem us from ALL iniquity.
ALL iniquity.
For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should walk righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). How are we walking godly if we say we will sin again on occasion as a matter of fact? How can we walk godly if we are sinning on occasion our whole lives until death? It is a contradiction. There has to be an upright walk (with no occasional sinning) in order for us to live righteously and godly in this present world.