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I won't bother because you are going to maintain your point of view and you are welcome to it.

Then I have won, and those who read this thread will be convinced by the verses I put forth. So thank you for not putting up any fight.

As for Belief Alone Proponents: I have talked with some (once in person and several folks online) who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and be saved while doing so. Others believe that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. As a result of this belief, many have killed themselves thinking they would be saved by having a belief on Jesus. So yeah, I do not see Belief Alone-ism as this innocent fun loving belief as you do.
 
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Brent Karding

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James disagrees with you. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Paul was referring to being justified by "Works Alone" (or Law Alone) without God's grace because of the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). There were Christians at that time who were being deceived by certain Jews that they needed to be circumcised FIRST to be “Initially Saved.” Paul was saying we are “Initially Saved” by receiving God’s grace through faith in Christ like the receiving of a gift (Note: Gifts are received once).

No, James doesn't disagree, because his statement on justification by works is talking about being justified before man, not before God. You show faith by works (James 2:18). Verse 23 of James 2 quotes Genesis 15:6, which shows that Abraham was justified before God by faith alone, and says that it was "fulfilled" when Abraham offered Isaac on the altar. Abraham was already declared righteous by God, which is justification, and which was enough at the moment of his faith that, if he had died at that moment, he would have entered God's presence in Heaven. But Genesis 15:6 was proved to be true when he obeyed God.

To say that justification, in the sense of God's declaring you righteous, happens by works at any point during one's life, is to teach contrary to Scripture and to embrace a gospel that is no gospel at all. I'm not denying the importance of works, but not as a part of one's justification before God. If I started teaching that, everyone in this forum should reject what I say - even if I were an angel from Heaven (Gal. 1:6).

I think I've made my point clear - I've tried to, anyway! So I'm going to leave this topic alone now. :)
 
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No, James doesn't disagree, because his statement on justification by works is talking about being justified before man, not before God.

We need both faith and works. Faith in Jesus (for salvation) is where it starts (Justification), and works is what follows (Sanctification).

James criticizes a "continued belief alone" as being bad because he says that even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith saved anyone? No. Can we have the belief of demons? No.

James 2:24 is also not broken up into two parts. Let's read it.

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).​

The word "justified" is used once in reference to both "faith" and "works" in James 2:24.

James does not distinguish between two different justifications in James 2:24. We know that we cannot be justified by faith in men, but we can only be justified by faith in God. So if we are justified by God by faith, then we are justified by works before God because the word "justified" refers to BOTH faith and works in James 2:24. Furthermore, Abraham was justified by works by his offering Isaac upon the altar. If you were to read that scene, only Abraham and Isaac were present, and no men were present to witness his obedience so as to be justified before men by his works.

For by Abraham's obedience, it was how God could truly know that he feared God:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. "
(Genesis 22:12).​

For by Abraham's obedience, it was the reason by which Abraham's seed (Jesus - who was in the line of Abraham) would bless all the nations of the Earth:

15 "And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Genesis 22:15-18).​

You said:
If Abraham did not obey God's voice, I imagine that he would not have been chosen to be in the line of the Messiah or the "seed" (Whereby the Messiah Jesus would bless all the nations of the Earth).

You show faith by works (James 2:18). Verse 23 of James 2 quotes Genesis 15:6, which shows that Abraham was justified before God by faith alone, and says that it was "fulfilled" when Abraham offered Isaac on the altar. Abraham was already declared righteous by God, which is justification, and which was enough at the moment of his faith that, if he had died at that moment, he would have entered God's presence in Heaven. But Genesis 15:6 was proved to be true when he obeyed God.

Right, I am not in disagreement with the Justification Process. I believe Abraham would have been saved if he died while trusting in God, too. Justification is where salvation starts. But that is not where it ends. His obedience NEEDED to be there afterwards to prove that His faith was true and genuine. The works NEEDED to be there otherwise his faith would be dead as James says. For a dead faith cannot save anyone. Works are merely the fruit or proof that shows that God lives inside a person. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

You contradict yourself and say that Justification is all that is needed on the one hand (i.e. we are saved by a belief alone only), and then on the other hand you say that works or obedience must follow (Sanctification). Then again, many in the Belief Alone Camp espouse this contradiction and they cannot see that it is one.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we need to have two things as a part of salvation:

#1. Belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification by the Spirit (Holy living - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

You said:
To say that justification, in the sense of God's declaring you righteous, happens by works at any point during one's life, is to teach contrary to Scripture and to embrace a gospel that is no gospel at all.

When you read Galatians 1:7, you have to understand that Paul was referring to the heresy at the time of "Circumcision Salvationism." Again, this is was a false belief (that was being pushed upon Christians at that time) that says that one had to first be circumcised in order to be saved (Which is what made it all about works). How so?

Paul said,

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised"
(Galatians 2:3).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).​

The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism was made even more clear at the Jerusalem counsel:

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

So you are taking Paul's words out of context. Paul was not referring to obedience to commandments from the Lord Jesus Christ or the commands that come from His followers. Paul was referring to "Circumcision Salvationism." (Which is Law Alone Salvationism that circumvented God's grace through faith in Jesus - which is the first step and foundation in the salvation equation).

You said:
I'm not denying the importance of works, but not as a part of one's justification before God. If I started teaching that, everyone in this forum should reject what I say - even if I were an angel from Heaven (Gal. 1:6).

And they should reject your words if you push a belief that ignores the context of what Paul was actually talking about (Which was "Circumcision Salvationism" - Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2). Nowhere does Paul say that obedience to the commands of Jesus (like loving God, and loving your neighbor as a part of life) after being saved by God's grace is another gospel. That would be adding something to Scripture that is not there. In fact, we know that Paul is in agreement with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).​

Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that said that we have to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus did not correct the lawyer. Jesus told him to do this (i.e. to love God and his neighbor) and he will live (Luke 10:28). Jesus did not correct the lawyer and say that he was wrong and that he only needs to have a belief on Him and not to worry about sin. Luke 10:25-28 involves the words of Jesus and he is clearly teaching salvation by obedience to God's commands.

Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, they are proud and they know nothing.
James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble.
Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
This is what I believe "Belief Alone-ism" does.
While on the one hand it says you can "sin and still be saved" by having a belief on Jesus, on the other hand it says you need to live holy to show forth a true faith. It is the kind of belief that is a contradiction.
 
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Brent Karding

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As I read your statement, I kept thinking, "Amen - I agree." I am a Calvinist, becoming convinced of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints over the last few years, because I grew up in settings where you could be called a "carnal Christian" if you made a profession of faith and never showed any fruit. But the Bible requires fruit; it requires people to cling to Jesus in faith and good works if they want to get to Heaven.

I just want to make two points before I leave this discussion (as I have been sharpened, and feel like we agree and most things, and so don't want to digress into useless bickering if we keep arguing further). First, I know that Paul's statement in Galatians 1:6-9 isn't talking about the same error I've been trying to combat. I'm simply using it as a paradigm for responding to any false gospel. For Paul's words about rejecting a false gospel can be applied to any false gospel. That's simply what I'm doing.

Secondly, I agree with you completely about the necessity of sanctification, and would even use the statement that "salvation requires good works." For "salvation" is used in the Bible to refer not only to initial justification, but also to the continuing process of sanctification during one's life, resulting in God's eschatological verdict, when we are finally and completely "saved" at our glorification. And I think that's what you're saying - the problem is using the word "justification" in relationship to works in a way that implies that God declares us righteous based partly on what we've done. In other words, if someone asked a professing Christian, "On what basis do you confidently expect to enter Heaven?" and they answered, "Partly based on the righteousness of Christ imputed to my account, and partly based on my own good works, so that I will enter Heaven lifting up my good works to God and say, 'Accept me into Heaven because I have trusted in Christ and I have been a good person,'" that would be confidence in a false gospel, resulting in Hell instead of Heaven.

When we interpret a difficult passage like James 2, that seems to contradict everything else the Bible says about justification being by faith alone, we must interpret it in the light of what is clear - God declares those who believe to be righteous, based on Christ's righteousness alone. James 2 cannot contradict anything else in the Bible, for God's Word is wholly inerrant. But right hermeneutics demands that we shine a flashlight at a dark place, not a dark place at a flashlight.
 
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bcbsr

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However, not all believers respond "naturally" as you do. Each believer now has the choice whether to continue in sin or continue in repentance of sin. To choose to sow to the Spirit, or to choose to sow to the flesh. Those that choose to engage in a lifestyle of habitual sin will not receive eternal life but instead reap spiritual death according to Romans 8:13.
Really? Ever consider 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."? As I read it seems that those born of God are unable to live in sin as you describe it, because they have been born of God. The phrase in Romans 8:13 "if you live according to the flesh you will die" is referring to those who hadn't been born of God, as I read it. I guess you read it differently. Doesn't Romans 8 start off "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2 And by the way the "Therefore" is a segue from the end of chapter 7 "So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." Being free from the law of sin and death means that sin no longer impacts his destiny, and thus freedom from condemnation.
 
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bcbsr

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Well, the very verse you quote says otherwise to what you said.

The word "heareth" is in reference to obedience. So it is saying he that obeys my word and believes on Him (the Son) has everlasting life.
Apparently you don't hear what Jesus is saying there. Jesus is saying that upon coming to faith one's salvation status is finalized as if they had already passed from death to life. In contrast in your soteriology you view Jesus as putting people on the starting line, their Final salvation being determined based on their performance.

So where does the expression "he has passed from death to life" translate to in your soteriology?
 
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bcbsr

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If you believe works is always the result of a true faith, then you believe in the necessity of works as a part of the salvation equation.

Equation?
Saving Faith results in Salvation + Works

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the conditions of the saved.
 
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bcbsr

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Then explain it to me in how it works.
Right, now it is a contradiction.
If you believe works will always follow a true saving faith by God's grace, then that is saying that works are essential to salvation.
Why can't you understand this simply truth.
Faith results in Salvation + Works
The consequences of having saving faith are two fold (or perhaps more). One is that one is given salvation from the wrath of God (along with other issues of status), and secondly it impacts one's behavior.

How is that contradictory? I don't understand how you cannot understand that concept. Where is the logical flaw.

You have a cause and it results in effects. How is that statement illogical? You're saying that you can't have a cause that results in effects without the effects "circling around" to because the cause. Now that's illogical.
 
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bcbsr

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So then works do play a part in the salvation process. For if they do not play a part in the salvation process, then that means one can have NO works later in their life and be saved.
That's a logical fallacy known as a non sequitur statement. You're logic simply doesn't follow.
 
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bcbsr

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Then I have won, and those who read this thread will be convinced by the verses I put forth. So thank you for not putting up any fight.

As for Belief Alone Proponents: I have talked with some (once in person and several folks online) who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and be saved while doing so. Others believe that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. As a result of this belief, many have killed themselves thinking they would be saved by having a belief on Jesus. So yeah, I do not see Belief Alone-ism as this innocent fun loving belief as you do.
Then I have won? Really? When Stephen and Paul gave up trying to persuade the unbelieving Jews, did the unbelieving Jews win the argument by default?

"Some", not me. I also believe in salvation by faith in Christ alone. I don't believe in "salvation by works" that you've admitted to on this thread. Yet none of those statements reflect my beliefs. You're just resorting to attacking some fringe group, as if they represent the bulk of us who have been responding to you regarding all your salvation by works posts on various threads, while you just out of hand discard our arguments. It's some saying that they don't believing in Catholicism because some Catholics behave in such and such a manner.

As for the danger of your salvation by works gospel, being a false gospel it can result in people going to hell.
 
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bcbsr

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This is what I believe "Belief Alone-ism" does.
While on the one hand it says you can "sin and still be saved" by having a belief on Jesus, on the other hand it says you need to live holy to show forth a true faith. It is the kind of belief that is a contradiction.
Didn't you yourself previously admit that you believe that one can sin (the Jason category of "non-grevious" sins) and still be saved? Isn't that a contradiction?
 
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Believers cannot abide in unconfessed grievous sin and still be saved. They can repent (confess of their sin to the Lord) and be restored if they seek to forsake that sin with the Lord's help. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. 1 John 1:9 talks about how if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Belief Alone Proponents suggest that all future sin is paid for by having a belief on Jesus. If so, then why confess sin to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9? Also, forsaking (putting away sin and abiding in God's good ways) sin can be seen in 1 John 1:7. It says that if we walk in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This is the condition of having the blood of Jesus to cleanse us. Walking in the light (Which is to love your brother - See 1 John 2:9-11). This is confirmed even more with 1 John 3:15 that says if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So yes. We do need the good work of the Lord of loving our brother flowing through us. If not, then we are not saved. For there is no clause of exception made by John that says that believers can have eternal life abiding in them if they hate their brother. Please take note that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (like do not steal, do not covet, do not murder, etc.) (See: Romans 13:8-10).
 
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As I read your statement, I kept thinking, "Amen - I agree." I am a Calvinist, becoming convinced of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints over the last few years, because I grew up in settings where you could be called a "carnal Christian" if you made a profession of faith and never showed any fruit. But the Bible requires fruit; it requires people to cling to Jesus in faith and good works if they want to get to Heaven.

I just want to make two points before I leave this discussion (as I have been sharpened, and feel like we agree and most things, and so don't want to digress into useless bickering if we keep arguing further). First, I know that Paul's statement in Galatians 1:6-9 isn't talking about the same error I've been trying to combat. I'm simply using it as a paradigm for responding to any false gospel. For Paul's words about rejecting a false gospel can be applied to any false gospel. That's simply what I'm doing.

Secondly, I agree with you completely about the necessity of sanctification, and would even use the statement that "salvation requires good works." For "salvation" is used in the Bible to refer not only to initial justification, but also to the continuing process of sanctification during one's life, resulting in God's eschatological verdict, when we are finally and completely "saved" at our glorification. And I think that's what you're saying - the problem is using the word "justification" in relationship to works in a way that implies that God declares us righteous based partly on what we've done. In other words, if someone asked a professing Christian, "On what basis do you confidently expect to enter Heaven?" and they answered, "Partly based on the righteousness of Christ imputed to my account, and partly based on my own good works, so that I will enter Heaven lifting up my good works to God and say, 'Accept me into Heaven because I have trusted in Christ and I have been a good person,'" that would be confidence in a false gospel, resulting in Hell instead of Heaven.

When we interpret a difficult passage like James 2, that seems to contradict everything else the Bible says about justification being by faith alone, we must interpret it in the light of what is clear - God declares those who believe to be righteous, based on Christ's righteousness alone. James 2 cannot contradict anything else in the Bible, for God's Word is wholly inerrant. But right hermeneutics demands that we shine a flashlight at a dark place, not a dark place at a flashlight.

But the Bible does teach that not only do we need God's grace through faith to be saved, but we also need works of faith as a part of the salvation process.

How so?

You can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
The Lord said to the faithful servant that he was faithful over a few things, and as a result he would rule over many things and He was told to enter into the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21).
However, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).
Jesus told those believers who did good works to depart from Him because He did not know them because they worked iniquity (or sin) (Matthew 7:23) (See 1 John 2:3-4).
Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).
“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
 
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Then I have won? Really? When Stephen and Paul gave up trying to persuade the unbelieving Jews, did the unbelieving Jews win the argument by default?

"Some", not me. I also believe in salvation by faith in Christ alone. I don't believe in "salvation by works" that you've admitted to on this thread. Yet none of those statements reflect my beliefs. You're just resorting to attacking some fringe group, as if they represent the bulk of us who have been responding to you regarding all your salvation by works posts on various threads, while you just out of hand discard our arguments. It's some saying that they don't believing in Catholicism because some Catholics behave in such and such a manner.

As for the danger of your salvation by works gospel, being a false gospel it can result in people going to hell.

Can believers who hold to your belief believe that they can go prodigal like the prodigal son? Can they backslide into a life of sin for a while? If so, are they saved while they are prodigal and living in all manner of many kinds of grievous sins?

Also, what do you believe is the typical walk of a believer who believes as you do? Do they stumble into looking at women every once a month and lie maybe every three months, but they confess of these sins? Or are these sins more frequent? Perhaps weekly? Daily? The point I am getting at here is that no matter the amount of time that you put a stamp marker on, if you believe that Christians will always stumble on occasion into some kind of grievous sin, and they are saved even when they stumble into these kinds of sins, then this is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (or it is a way to create a safety net to sin).

I have a friend who believes in Eternal Security, but he believes that you cannot justify one sin with the thinking you are saved. But he is in the minority of the Eternal Security camp. Most I have talked with believe they do not lose salvation if they abide in unrepentant or unconfessed sin for a short amount of time.
 
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Then I have won? Really?

Yes. If the verses I put forth go unchallenged, and somebody is on the fence between Eternal Security and Conditional Salvationism, then there is a chance that they could side with the verses I have put forth if they value the plain written meaning of Scripture.
 
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"Some", not me. I also believe in salvation by faith in Christ alone. I don't believe in "salvation by works" that you've admitted to on this thread. Yet none of those statements reflect my beliefs. You're just resorting to attacking some fringe group, as if they represent the bulk of us who have been responding to you regarding all your salvation by works posts on various threads, while you just out of hand discard our arguments. It's some saying that they don't believing in Catholicism because some Catholics behave in such and such a manner.

If all my sins were paid for, I would just go back to my old life of sin, or I would not take following the Lord as seriously because it would not really matter in the end. I can live a semi moral life, and also have the pet sins I want. But salvation doesn't work like that. It's like the belief of Universalism. Why bother to even promote Universalism? They say that it is shorten the length of those in hell, but again, it ultimately really does not matter in the scope of eternity. In other words, there is no real everlasting consequences in Eternal Security. Sure, you lose rewards that you never are able to see in this life. How is that a motivator? If I am saved solely based on having a belief on Jesus, the way I live does not matter. I can drop kick a dogs and cats over bridges for fun, and cuss out people, and God is still going to accept me on the basis of believing in Jesus. But if how I live does matter, then I would seek the Lord's forgiveness and ask the Lord to do the good work through me to obey His commands.

What you fail to understand is that Eternal Security is the same lie that was fed to Eve by the serpent. The serpent told Eve that she would not die if she broke God's commandment. This same lie is being pushed today under Eternal Security. For they say you do not lose your salvation (or you don't die) if you break God's commandment (i.e. if you commit grievous sin).
 
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So you admit it that you believe in salvation by works.

Yes, and so does Jesus.
See Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30.
So does Paul. See Titus 1:16, Romans 2:6, and Romans 8:13.
So does James. See James 2:17-19, and James 2:24.
 
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Jason0047 said:
So then works do play a part in the salvation process. For if they do not play a part in the salvation process, then that means one can have NO works later in their life and be saved.
That's a logical fallacy known as a non sequitur statement. You're logic simply doesn't follow.

I believe I am being quite logical.
If works do not play a part in salvation, then they should not be required to be present to show a saving faith. For even if works did not save in and of themselves, and it was saving faith that produced works, this would still mean that works would be required as a part of salvation because one cannot have a genuine saving faith without works. The works are the proof in the pudding that they are saved. So they are required as a part of salvation because it is tied to a saving faith. Unless of course you want to detach works from a saving faith and say it is possible to be saved by a belief alone without works for a believer who has lived out his faith for many years.
 
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Why can't you understand this simply truth.
Faith results in Salvation + Works

Because Jesus taught that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30), and He taught that the Lord commended that faithful servant to enter the joy of the Lord and to be rewarded based upon his faithfulness (Matthew 25:21). I don't seek to insert a preconceived belief upon this text like the OSAS proponent is forced to do with these kind of verses. I just read and believe what these verses say at face value.

You said:
The consequences of having saving faith are two fold (or perhaps more). One is that one is given salvation from the wrath of God (along with other issues of status), and secondly it impacts one's behavior.

I would say that it is true that if a person believes future sin is forgiven them it does impact their behavior. They can easily treat God's grace as a license for immorality, or they can not treat sin as seriously. I say this because there are individuals who have done this before.

You said:
How is that contradictory? I don't understand how you cannot understand that concept. Where is the logical flaw.

You have a cause and it results in effects. How is that statement illogical? You're saying that you can't have a cause that results in effects without the effects "circling around" to because the cause. Now that's illogical.

Cause and Effect are related to each other. You cannot have the Effect without the Cause. Yet, you want to divorce the Effect from the Cause by saying that the Effect is not related to the Cause. The Effect points back to the Cause, because you cannot have the Effect without the Cause. The Cause makes the Effect to happen. Thus it is circular in the fact that they refer to each other by their connection.
 
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