When does one lose salvation?

-57

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Then you re saying, in proper context, since you claim beyond doubt, obeying God is believing and we all know we have to believe to have eternal life, you now agree since obey and believe are one in the same, to have eternal life we must believe/obey God?

Why the sudden change of heart?

Believing is step 1. God has to give you the faith to believe. At the same time christians are regenerated...born again, quickened. Once saved obediance takes on a diffferent character.

Conditional salvation believers seem to say you must work out your salvation and endure to the end meeting the required obedience hoping you're saved when you die.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Jesus never lied.
The problem is that some of us like a few verses and stick to those instead of taking in the meaning of all of the N.T.

Jesus gives everlasting life to those that are IN HIM.
If we are IN CHRIST, we have everlasting life...
to be received at the end of our life when the guarantee of the Holy Spirit comes to fruition.
He who does not have the Son and is NOT IN CHRIST...does NOT have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-12
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Titus 3:7
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life....
and He says so - in the present tense. We must BELIEVE IN Him....when we die.

John 11:25-26

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
You referenced 1 John 11-12, but left of the most important verse ...
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John

Notice, verse 15 ... "that ye may know that ye have eternal life" This is in the PRESENT tense, meaning we have it presently, NOT at the end of our physical life as you say.

This aligns perfectly with John 3:18, which shows that both eternal life and condemnation are in the present tense.
 
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GodsGrace101

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You referenced 1 John 11-12, but left of the most important verse ...
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John

Notice, verse 15 ... "that ye may know that ye have eternal life" This is in the PRESENT tense, meaning we have it presently, NOT at the end of our physical life as you say.

This aligns perfectly with John 3:18, which shows that both eternal life and condemnation are in the present tense.
I agree with the above.
You're not getting my point maybe.
We HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IN JESUS.

IF we have Jesus we have eternal life.
I even said it begins here on earth in the Kingdom of God...a spiritual Kingdom that Jesus meant to set up.

We CLAIM it at the end of our life because it cannot be known if we will still be believers when we die.

The N.T. makes it clear that we could become lost again. Jesus spoke of the lost sheep, He spoke of the prodigal son.

The present tense is because we must BELIEVE at the time of our death.

If we "accepted" Jesus or spoke some words at some point in our life but then at some point returned to a life of sin...would that person still be saved?

Would they still be adhereing to John 14:15?
Does a habitual sinner love Jesus?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Believing is step 1. God has to give you the faith to believe. At the same time christians are regenerated...born again, quickened. Once saved obediance takes on a diffferent character.

Conditional salvation believers seem to say you must work out your salvation and endure to the end meeting the required obedience hoping you're saved when you die.
Paul said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

I know fear means respect.
Paul said to work it out.
We get our salvation at the end of life.
We redeem our promise and our hope.
 
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-57

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Paul said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

I know fear means respect.
Paul said to work it out.
We get our salvation at the end of life.
We redeem our promise and our hope.

"We get our salvation at the end of life."...well that kinda sucks. I suppose you either hear "well done my faithful servant " or "I never knew you"...and the people Jesus said I never knew you were working their butts off.
 
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GodsGrace101

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"We get our salvation at the end of life."...well that kinda sucks. I suppose you either hear "well done my faithful servant " or "I never knew you"...and the people Jesus said I never knew you were working their butts off.
Language my dear man.
The above is correct...

Except that Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU
to the LAWLESS. Those would be the ones that did not follow HIS LAW.

He clearly states those whom He did not know.
Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


The Two Foundations

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”



In verse 24, Jesus goes on to say that those who follow His words are the wise ones.
Which words do you think He meant?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Believing is step 1. God has to give you the faith to believe. At the same time christians are regenerated...born again, quickened. Once saved obediance takes on a diffferent character.

That's funny, because it looks like you're saying:

, since you claim beyond doubt, obeying God is believing and we all know we have to believe to have eternal life, you now agree since obey and believe are one in the same, to have eternal life we must believe/obey God?

Conditional salvation believers seem to say you must work out your salvation and endure to the end meeting the required obedience hoping you're saved when you die.

Do you want me to show you where the bible says we must endure to the end? Or would you rather not have to see that?
 
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Kenny'sID

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You're missing the point. Unbelief is the BASIS for disobedience. In other words, belief brings our obedience. However, salvation is based upon the belief we have in Christ. Believe precedes salvation. And salvation precedes our obedience to God's commandments concerning holiness.

Then if one is saved but does not do those things Jesus says we must do to get into heaven, they are sill heaven bound?

Did you answer the question I asked among that post? Here it is again, and if you did answer, please point out where, if not, please do.

Let me ask you, do you have to obey Jesus/God in order to get to heaven or is that not part of believing in them to you??
 
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Dr. Jack

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Then if one is saved but does not do those things Jesus says we must do to get into heaven, they are sill heaven bound?

Did you answer the question I asked among that post? Here it is again, and if you did answer, please point out where, if not, please do.
First, your question presents a false dichotomy in that it infers there are but two answers; yes, or no; and those without any qualifications.

It would be akin to ... Does your father beat your harder than your mother beats you?

There is a reason for obedience to Christ in our every day lives, but it is NOT for our salvation.

Now for this question which you asked ...
Then if one is saved but does not do those things Jesus says we must do to get into heaven, they are sill heaven bound?
Maybe you need to share with me what YOU think Jesus says we must do "to get to heaven".
 
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Dr. Jack

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Again, believeth --- present tense.
We can't get away from the fact that we must believe in God --- not had believed at some point and then fell away from our faith, as the N.T. teaches.


Why? Some theologians think there's a difference and some don't. I'm not willing to take a stand if they cannot. I'll only say that eternal life is referring to a quality of life more than quantity.

I will say that I do agree that our eternal life begins here. Jesus preached a lot about the Kingdom of God...He only mentioned salvation a few times. But He made it clear that the Kingdom here is a real spiritual place and that there is a ruler, HIM, and there are rules...just like any Kingdom would have. If we wish to remain in the Kingdom...we must follow its rules.


Agreed.


I agree with all of the above, as long as we REMAIN IN CHRIST.

It's clear from scripture that we can fall away.

As to "everlasting"....everyone has everlasting life...our soul and spirit remain alive after death. Even those that are destined for hell have everlasting life. Only those going to heaven have eternal life (referring to quality). But, again, I don't really wish to debate these terms.


Sure.
As soon as you provide some scripture that tells us we can be saved WITHOUT JESUS and WITHOUT FAITH.




You yourself have answered the above.
We have eternal life when we are IN CHRIST.

If we are not IN CHRIST we do not have eternal life.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2 isn't referring to Christians.
 
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Dr. Jack

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One of the issues I have seen in this thread is the lack of understanding of "life" and "death" according to the Scriptures. Please consider the following:

What is Death? Interestingly, when most people are asked to define “death", they say something along the lines of “when all bodily functions cease”. This is clearly a naturalistic view. I was once asked (by a ‘science minded’ person), What is the definition of “cold"? I said, “The opposite of “heat"". He said, The definition of “cold", is “the absence of heat". Likewise, we can say, that “death" is the absence of “life". Now we must get a bit more definitive. Why? Because we want a Scriptural definition of death. We have two elements to deal with: 1) the spiritual; and 2) the physical.

Let's go to the Scriptures!
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

In the above text God tells Adam, in the day that he eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; he shalt surely die.

And … 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus
(God cannot lie!) Here is what we know:

3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis

At some point Adam and Eve both ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Furthermore, we also know that Adam and Eve didn't die ‘physically’ that day.

So what happened?

First, we must understand that we are composed of three parts: 1) the body; 2) the soul; and 3) the spirit. Paul said, 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians

So once again … 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

We know 1) that God cannot lie; 2) Adam and Eve didn't die physically that day; and 3) man has a body, soul, and spirit.

What then does the Scripture say about the relationship between a person's sin, and their relationship with God?

59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah

What are “iniquities”?
16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Leviticus

I want you to notice two words from the above text: 1) “iniquities”; and 2) “transgressions”. (The phrase is “transgressions in all their sins”)

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John

Dealing with the latter, then the former … we see that “sin" is a transgression of the law. Therefore, the phrase “transgressions in all their sins” relates to “sin"; but what about the word “iniquities”?

3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Acts

Strongs G4189 Greek: πονηρία Transliteration: ponēria Pronunciation: pon-ay-ree'-ah Definition: From G4190; depravity that is (specifically) malice; plural (concretely) plots sins: - iniquity wickedness.

When a study is done of the word “sin", it simply refers to a person transgressing the law of God. Iniquity on the other hand, is not a simple slip of the law breaker, but a willing choice to violate the Law of God .

Adam didn't slip, he willingly chose to eat the fruit God told him not to eat. The consequence of Adam's willful transgression (more correctly called an iniquity) was that his soul was separated from God, just as Isaiah stated. This is spiritual death.

Fortunately for Adam, and for mankind, God allows our body to continue to live so that we can recognize our need of salvation, which will bring us back into a proper relationship with God. Hence the word “Atonement” which we see throughout the Scriptures.

The word “Atone" means “at one" …

Strong G2643 Greek: καταλλαγή Transliteration: katallagē Pronunciation: kat-al-lag-ay' Definition: From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment) that is restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement reconciliation (-ing).

So iniquity separates; but the blood of Jesus restores that relationship. Now I said that God gives us time to be restored to a proper relationship with Himself … but what happens if we don’t get atonement from God?

As we consider this, think about the fact that people can live literally for decades without being reconciled to God. What does this mean? It means that their soul has been separated from God all that time … but it is still there … in existence.

Dead … (separate from God), but still there, existing.

Let's take a brief moment to define “life".

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John

Jesus said that He is “Life". Let's go back to Genesis …

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis

So God breathed into Adam the “breath of life".

Think about that. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam … the breath of life.

23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke

There Jesus is, hanging on the cross, when He willingly says, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” … what happened next? “he gave up the ghost" Jesus willingly surrendered to the Father that which kept his physical body alive … His spirit.

12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes

Like us, Jesus has three parts: 1) the Body; 2) the soul; and 3) a spirit. Let's look at what happened to all three parts.
1) The body of Jesus A) remained on the cross; then B ) was placed in a grave; then C) was resurrected physically, but now in a type of physical body that could both eat, drink, pass through walls and doors, disappear (vanish), and walk away into heaven.
2) The soul of Jesus went to hell, where He took the keys of death and hell, then walked over to Abraham's bosom, where He released the souls of the OT saints upon His resurrection.

16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation

27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew
3) The spirit of Jesus went to the Father 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke
Notice above what happened when Jesus resurrected from the grave … “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose”
11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John
Jesus used the word “sleep” to define the state of the Old Testament saints which had died. Here, the Holy Spirit inspired John to use the same word to tell us that while these Old Testament saints had their bodies in the grave, they were separated from their souls, which were in Abraham's bosom, in comfort. Jesus bears further witness to this in Luke.
16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luke

The bodies of those who have died physically are all in a grave somewhere; but the location of there soul is determined by whether or not they were a believer in Christ when they were separated from physical life “the breath of life" which is the “spirit", that goes to the Father who gave it to us. The soul is separated from the body, that is the meaning of death, but it is still in existence somewhere.

In the Old Testament believing souls went to Abraham's bosom as taught by Jesus, but the unbelieving souls went to the fires of hell to be tormented, which Jesus also taught.

19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job

Job clearly believed in a future a futuristic physical resurrection upon the earth. He knew that his current body would be eaten by worms yet, “yet in my flesh shall I see God”, and this would be, “upon the earth”. Job understood that for a period of time after his physical death, he would be separated from that body, but would be reunited with it in “the latter day upon the earth”.

Jesus taught there would be both eternal life and “everlasting punishment”. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew

Notice what Jesus says, the wicked “go away into everlasting punishment” … they are separated from Himself (He is “Life" … being separated from the “Life … Jesus" is the definition of “death"). “But the righteous into life eternal” … the righteousness get “Life" (to be with Jesus forever). Yay!
 
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Kenny'sID

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First, your question presents a false dichotomy in that it infers there are but two answers; yes, or no; and those without any qualifications.

It would be akin to ... Does your father beat your harder than your mother beats you?

There is a reason for obedience to Christ in our every day lives, but it is NOT for our salvation.

Yes or no is a reasonable request, and you are assuming it is not. You may add anything you like after I get a straight answer. I need that so there is no misunderstanding. But if you need to make such a claim so you don't have to be clear....your choice.

Now for this question which you asked ...

Maybe you need to share with me what YOU think Jesus says we must do "to get to heaven".

Following is the question I was talking about, that you had missed. Since you are not aware of what I have already conveyed several times that i think Christ expects of us, you may dismiss the question you thought I was asking about.

Let me ask you, do you have to obey Jesus/God in order to get to heaven or is that not part of believing in them to you??
 
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GWBhanna

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If I deliberatly go on sining after being saved, will I still make heaven? I got a friend telling me this
Once saved forever saved. 1

I had the same questions even though I was born a Christian and I am sure you are not the only one but especially those who call themselves real Christians and those who truly want to lead a holy life will be suffering with this dilemma. No matter how hard you try, no matter how much you pray, no matter how many times you undergo a baptism in church, no matter how often you attend a communion service, no matter how many retreats you go to, no matter how much you volunteer in church, no matter how many tears you shed during a worship service... that will not make you get rid of your doubts nor will it make you free.
It is the TRUTH that will set you free. But the Truth has been hidden for such a long time and all the religious leader have committed the error of interpreting the Bible with their human thinking, their logic and their perspective. No wonder there were thousands of different opinions and interpretations on the same passage of the same Bible. No wonder it has split Christianity into so many denominations when there is actually only one true Father God, and one Truth.
I have been to various churches of different denominations but those doubts never went away until I listened to the Word that was interpreted fully by the Bible. So the Bible is being interpreted WITH THE BIBLE, which completely makes sense as it is written in 1.Cor 2:13 :
'which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.'

the spiritual thoughts(which are God's thoughts and His thoughts is the Word= the Bible) must be combined(interpreted)with spiritual words(which again are God's words = the Bible).

So when I first heard this, it suddenly made so much sense why the Bible was such a riddle and mystery that was so hard to understand. It was because the spiritual thoughts were combined with human thoughts which didn't make sense and which actually was distorting the Truth.
The Bible must be interpreted WITH THE BIBLE in order to understand God's will. And there are incredible meanings hidden within the Word. As i was listening to this Word I came to understand God's will with such reasoning that it became clearer and clearer what 'sin' actually is, and what 'righteousness' is and what 'judgment' is.
And once you understand the will of God you know what to do, you will act. Finally, by Father God's grace, as I see, hear, believe and act according to the Bible now I came to see that there is a way to no longer sin. And if you no longer sin your body will not have to die. Because it is the sin that causes our body to die. This is not some sf Theory, it is the written Word of God. So the ultimate salvation that God wants for us is being free from sin, being free from the life worries, and being free from death and enter eternal life, which is definitely NOT what we thought comes after death.

It is the Truth that will make you free.
We have been taught so many lies different from the Bible that has nothing to do with salvation nor will it make us free. So carefully listen to the Word that interprets the Bible with the Bible(and not in human thinking). This is the voice of the Spirit of Truth that will guide you into ALL the TRUTH.

 
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Dr. Jack

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Yes or no is a reasonable request, and you are assuming it is not. You may add anything you like after I get a straight answer. I need that so there is no misunderstanding. But if you need to make such a claim so you don't have to be clear....your choice.





Following is the question I was talking about, that you had missed. Since you are not aware of what I have already conveyed several times that i think Christ expects of us, you may dismiss the question you thought I was asking about.
Kenny'sID said:
Let me ask you, do you have to obey Jesus/God in order to get to heaven or is that not part of believing in them to you??
What must be obeyed, is the gospel.

What is the gospel?

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians

Jesus said,
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke

The ungodly believe many things concerning escaping the wrath of hell, and then entering heaven.

Paul said this,

1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians

Prior to being saved, we believe in our ability to do good to get to heaven. Paul asked the Galatians ...

3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

There were those who believed In the gospel (as Paul preached it), but then thought they had to STILL be obedient to the law. Paul called this a "false gospel".

We must separate what we obey to be saved (the gospel), and what we do after our salvation is secure.

When Jesus said we must "repent or perish" ... that is obeying the gospel. (Stop believing in what you do, and begin trusting what Jesus has already done.) Hence, the only obedience, is a matter of believing the proper thing.
 
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Kenny'sID

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What must be obeyed, is the gospel.

What is the gospel?

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians

Jesus said,
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke

The ungodly believe many things concerning escaping the wrath of hell, and then entering heaven.

Paul said this,

1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians

Prior to being saved, we believe in our ability to do good to get to heaven. Paul asked the Galatians ...

3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

There were those who believed In the gospel (as Paul preached it), but then thought they had to STILL be obedient to the law. Paul called this a "false gospel".

We must separate what we obey to be saved (the gospel), and what we do after our salvation is secure.

When Jesus said we must "repent or perish" ... that is obeying the gospel. (Stop believing in what you do, and begin trusting what Jesus has already done.) Hence, the only obedience, is a matter of believing the proper thing.

On what I put in bold there in the quote. IOW believing we must do works, the thing that makes "faith" not dead or makes faith actual faith is not the proper thing???

That last paragraph that says we must believe the proper thing but nothing about doing it as a must, sums up OSAS. Yours is an empty "belief", or a dead faith, with talk, and no walk required, as in James 2:16

If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17 So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

Are you all not aware what "dead" means? Anyone recall the scene from "Deja vu" where Denzel Washington picks up the monitor and smashes it in attempt to explain what the term "dead" actually means to those that just didn't get it? That's how I feel. You all read that part of scripture and you either ignore it or do something bizarre with it in order to get an opposite meaning from that which is already very clear.

When you can't answer a straight yes or no to such a basic question as follows.....

do you have to obey Jesus/God in order to get to heaven or is that not part of believing in them to you??

......that tells me there is something bad wrong. Clearly, I got exactly what I was expecting, while you made my point just the same.

You answer "no", and the results are something that I don't need to even explain.

You answer "yes", then you know I will show you, throughout the bible, where God/Jesus says we "must" do, or not do certain things, so you try to steer around that. all the while showing, by your lack of clear response, you actually know what the bible says on this, and what is right and what is wrong here. IOW, if you didn't know, you would not have tried to avoid it. I feel the need to say, I am not goading you for a yes or no, that is simply not the point, I want exactly what I got, you answering as you would answer, nothing more. However, part of the debate is to point out what your lack of a yes or no really means, at least in my view.

In order to call it true faith it MUST have action to go with it ("Faith without works is dead", or incomplete faith/not faith at all. So simple), which naturally means works/actions are part of faith, so any one who claims we don't need works in order to get to heaven, is essentially claiming we don't need faith, the very thing OSAS bases their salvation on. The Goats (Matthew 25:31–46) had dead faith and you know what that got them. In case you all still don't understand what dead faith means, it means no faith at all, just talk as in what the Goats did and the people there who saw some in need, well wished them and sent them on their way with nothing more than talk.
 
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Dr. Jack

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On what I put in bold there in the quote. IOW believing we must do works, the thing that makes "faith" not dead or makes faith actual faith is not the proper thing???

That last paragraph that says we must believe the proper thing but nothing about doing it as a must, sums up OSAS. Yours is an empty "belief", or a dead faith, with talk, and no walk required, as in James 2:16

If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17 So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

Are you all not aware what "dead" means? Anyone recall the scene from "Deja vu" where Denzel Washington picks up the monitor and smashes it in attempt to explain what the term "dead" actually means to those that just didn't get it? That's how I feel. You all read that part of scripture and you either ignore it or do something bizarre with it in order to get an opposite meaning from that which is already very clear.

When you can't answer a straight yes or no to such a basic question as follows.....



......that tells me there is something bad wrong. Clearly, I got exactly what I was expecting, while you made my point just the same.

You answer "no", and the results are something that I don't need to even explain.

You answer "yes", then you know I will show you, throughout the bible, where God/Jesus says we "must" do, or not do certain things, so you try to steer around that. all the while showing, by your lack of clear response, you actually know what the bible says on this, and what is right and what is wrong here. IOW, if you didn't know, you would not have tried to avoid it. I feel the need to say, I am not goading you for a yes or no, that is simply not the point, I want exactly what I got, you answering as you would answer, nothing more. However, part of the debate is to point out what your lack of a yes or no really means, at least in my view.

In order to call it true faith it MUST have action to go with it ("Faith without works is dead", or incomplete faith/not faith at all. So simple), which naturally means works/actions are part of faith, so any one who claims we don't need works in order to get to heaven, is essentially claiming we don't need faith, the very thing OSAS bases their salvation on. The Goats (Matthew 25:31–46) had dead faith and you know what that got them. In case you all still don't understand what dead faith means, it means no faith at all, just talk as in what the Goats did and the people there who saw some in need, well wished them and sent them on their way with nothing more than talk.
I think you are very good at misrepresenting the truth of Scripture.

1) Yes, you must obey the gospel to be saved.
2) You ASSUME I have a dead faith, showing you speak much, and know little.
3) You ASSUME I have never obeyed the words of Scripture after being saved. You again would be WRONG.

Here is the difference between your faith and mine ..

I believe Jesus saved me ... period. I can add nothing to what He has done.

So the question is, do I need to obey Jesus after I'm saved? That depends upon the PURPOSE of the obedience.

Since Jesus completed all that is necessary for me to be saved, How could I then NEED to be continue to be obedient to recieve that which He has already paid for?

Could there be ANOTHER reason for me to be obedient? The answer of course is YES!

That is to bring glory to God, that others may see how great my God is, and want the same deliverance I have received.

The problem you have is very simple ... you fail to be able to separate service to God, from the faith that has brought salvation.


James isn't saying you must do works to BE, or STAY saved ... (that is equating your self righteousness with the righteousness of God).


James IS saying that if your faith does not bring a change in your life to make you want to serve God, because of receiving salvation freely ... you don't have a proper faith.

I was saved 35 years ago. I surrendered to the ministry 2 years later. After attending Bible college, I served as an Associate Pastor, Pastor, teacher, and writer for decades. You have no idea what my ministry has been, nor do you care. The only thing you do is tell people they live in sin, they know nothing of the truth, and write long essays (saying little), accusing others, like myself of having a "dead faith".

14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans

My Lord is Jesus Christ, and Jesus alone. How dare you cast judgment upon me, when you have no idea who I am, or anything that I have done? Do you know where I have served, or whom I have reached for the Saviour?

Has God called you to judge those whom you know not?


Here are some questions for you ...

Do you still commit sin? Does not sin grieve the Holy Spirit?
 
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fhansen

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If I deliberatly go on sining after being saved, will I still make heaven? I got a friend telling me this
Once saved forever saved. 1
There are sins that lead to death (1 John 5) due to their gravity (direct opposition to love of God and/or neighbor) and their degree of deliberateness. So the RCC for its part teaches this:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.


And on moral teachings three things are necessary for a sin to be deadly/mortal: The object of the sin must be grave matter which is committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.
 
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