The single biggest problem with the education system.

keith99 said:

No absolutely not. That is a huge part of the problem. It came into focus for me when a local paper published a mea culpa letter from a retired teacher. Boiled down it said:

We told you that we knew best, that we could raise your children without your help.

We were wrong.

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keith99 said:

You mean things like proper grammar?

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keith99 said:

You mean things like proper grammar?

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R.Miller said:

A a high school teacher and a veteran, I have to say this post is woefully misinformed about the nature of the problem in educating young people and the prescriptive elements to tread the problem. Yelling at kids is a great way to discourage curiosity and make enemies.

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R.Miller said:

As a high school English teacher, I laughed. But, I also know that this is a goofy Internet forum and includes those with various disabilities and English Learners. No informed linguist or English teacher will be a Grammar Nazi.

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R.Miller said:

I've been to bootcamp, they yell. Any comparison to a classroom teacher and a drill instructor is going to assume the connotation of authority, intimidation, and some yelling.

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R.Miller said:

What to you mean by standards? Do you mean state Common Core Standards or something else?

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Radagast said:

That's certainly not true for medicine and engineering degrees.

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R.Miller said:

There are historically two approaches to linguistic philosophy:

The Prescriptive Approachand

The Descriptive Approach.


Prescriptivistsbelieve there are or should be regulating rules, norms and cultural structures to the maintenance of a language. The French Academy is a great example of codifying language and instituting regulations on usage, syntax, and grammar. In America during the 1700’s this became an important controversy as many in the U.S. (post revolution) wanted a uniquely American vernacular. This is why we say fall instead of autumn. Webber created hi dictionary to meet the demand of Prescriptivist ideas.


The Descriptivistdiffer because they do not wish to issue a prescription for word and language usage but, rather to identify the historical and contemporary usages of language, document its changes, and recognize patterns for study. In the field of Linguistics today, this is the position held by (maybe) all linguists. I take this position.


What many identify as Ebonics is preferably titledAfrican American Vernacular English (AAVE).

Several news outlets during the 1990’s jumped on the term Ebonics and helped to disparage it in the minds of Americans.


AAVE contrasts with Standard American English (SAE) is several ways but, those points of difference all conform to actual rules of grammar which have a foundation in several other languages: English, French, and African (there are a few African languages).


AAVE is not Standard American English and is not taught in public schools. It is not meant to replace SAE. English teacher in The U.S. face the challenge of educating students who have AAVE as their first language or dialect (there is debate about whether AAVE is a language or dialect). Just as a teacher must start with a Spanish speaker and scaffold their instruction to help the student develop SAE or Academic English (AE), Teachers also start with students who have a background of AAVE; we help them to develop SAE and AE by starting with where they are. We are not throwing standards out the window; we are struggling to educate young people who speak AAVE.


Here are some examples of AAVE in action:

Some specific rules of African American Vernacular English are the double negative or negative inversion. Although the examples above do not have a double negative, this occurs when two words in the same sentence are negative (Nobody can’t go out tonight.) It is usually thought that two negatives make a positive and is an error in the Standard English grammar world. Another rule of AAVE is the negative inversion. This includes the inversion of "Nobody can’t," so it would be "Can’t nobody." This inversion can only be done if the latter is a question.



Some pronunciations are interesting to look at as well. First, "th" is sometimes pronounced as "de." This is consistent with the French language which does not pronounce the "th" sound and instead says "t". AAVE also pronounces "th" as voiceless "t" or voiced "v" (bruvvah.) AAVE often does not use "consonant clusters." As in the example above, a person speaking Ebonics drops the ‘ts’ in tests to get "tesses." Another important rule of Ebonics is concerning the verb "to be." Often used in the tense "bin," as used in example number one, means that the action is still going happening. For instance, "She bin married" in Ebonics would be "She is still married." Many who speak standard English would think that it meant that "she" was married, but no longer is. For more rules and grammar technicalities, see Leslie’s Ebonics Resource (http://members.aol.com/LKFrieden/ebonics.html) or Leila Monaghan’s compilation of the "Views of linguists and anthropologists on the Ebonics issue." (www.standford.edu/~rickford/ebonics/linganthro1.html)

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R.Miller said:

Yes, it was Webster.
It effects their writing in the same way students who speak Spanish, French, etc struggle. They often misuse words and lack overall clarity in their writing. White students in the American South have similar issues with Standard English because they use speak a non-standard dialect. The larger problem is a lack of educational attainment of the parents, the devaluing of books and literature, and a suspicion or hostility toward institutions and authority. As teachers, we can take a young student with non-standard approach to English and have them speaking and composing academic writing in a short period of time. However, if there are significant obstacles at home, this can be difficult (an understatement).

Studies show that students who grow up with forty or more books in the home have an incredible advantage over those who do not. Although AAVE (Ebonics) is a real and predictable grammar, it is not Standard English and schools will measure student success on the metric of SAE and AE attainment. AAVE isn't really a problem in American Education. Literacy and home life is.

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