Climate change - hoax or reality?

Sparagmos · Jun 8, 2019

Albion said:
Well, there are plenty of them available. The thing is that they are immediately disavowed by the ones who want action, called incompetent, and so on. The media appropriately fall into line and the impression is given -- as you did here -- that there are NOT two sides to this issue when there really are.

How can facts have two sides? It’s propoganda from the fossil fuel industry that there are two sides.

Albion · Jun 8, 2019

Sparagmos said:
How can facts have two sides?

The facts cannot. But the evidence can. And that is what we were talking about.

Sparagmos · Jun 8, 2019

Orthodoxjay1 said:
So don't travel and don't have children, seem like a scam, the bible tells us to go fourth and multiply, this looks like a scheme for population control of the planet. As far as travel goes, there that thing call the right to travel and freedom of travel, time to give up visiting family, even if a mother dies, because a polar bear might suffer geez give me a break folks ::

Thank God for President Trump.

Carl Emerson · Jun 8, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
I like the idea of catalytic converters and gas assisted burners (burning the smoke as it were). Also pelletized wood burns cleaner as I understand it. Another aspect of burning wood is that is replaces long-buried fossil fuels thus returning the carbon cycle to the earth's surface rather than adding huge amounts of already sequestered carbon. Wood ash is useful as a soil supplement. Wood is also a renewable fuel, not to mention a very enjoyable fire on a cold winter night.

I was in renewable energy for 13 years. While these ideas are good they need to be affordable. Unfortunately the RE industry is very competitive and price of wood pellets for example have gone out the roof. The reason for this is that when humans have a sniff of a potential profit they are in there like robbers dogs. Forget the planet - there is a buck to be made.

So the protest movement we see on this thread is targeting the wrong folk.
Human greed is sinking the planet, not climate deniers.

USincognito · Jun 8, 2019

Curtis.Hilliker said:
Genesis 8:22

"As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."

What do seasons and days have to do with global climate change? :scratch:

mukk_in · Jun 8, 2019

That's true. Pricing of renewable energy has always been a problem. However, they have been getting cheaper and sustainable (higher efficiency). Here are some interesting articles:

1) Forbes: Forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy

2) Shell: shell.com/biofuels/benefits

Renewables are set to be cheaper than fossil fuels by 2020. That being said, fossil fuels can be made cleaner as well, like clean coal, for example. Those jobs don't have to be sacrificed and should grow alongside renewables.

It's lot easier to google these keywords for a complete links.

Philip_B · Jun 8, 2019

mukk_in said:
That being said, fossil fuels can be made cleaner as well, like clean coal, for example.

There is a saying round here (Newcastle Australia - huge coal exporting port) Clean Coal is a dirty lie.

I think, like lots of people, I hope clean coal is possible, however there is not enough water under the bridge yet to forget VW and clean diesel.

The western solution of exporting the dirty tasks to India and China so we can pretend it is not our problem is not a good long term solution.

That being said, the most recent federal election in Australia showed that the Climate Change agenda got good traction in the leafy luxury suburbs and absolutely trounced in the gritty working areas where jobs are essential to bread on the table. That may well be Maslow's hierarchy of needs in action.

Wrangler · Jun 8, 2019

USincognito said:
Laughable hyperbole. Also I thought evolution was supposed to be the greatest hoax in the history of mankind.

What's funny about identifying the greatest hoax in the history of the world?

I never said evolution was a hoax. Some Christians are threatened that it undermines God. I don't. Evolution does not explain how life came into existence. It merely states that there are forces acting on life such that there are changes through descent.

USincognito said:
Thank you for admitting that your position on AGW is so politicized you'd rather continue to make life hard for others than inconvenience yourself.

You're welcome?

Revealed, the entire AGW alarmist position is rooted in accepting being "inconvenienced" today so that others may one day not be "inconvenienced." No thanks. I'll take my money today.

USincognito said:
That's some serious Tragedy of the Commons nihilism.

Not at all. I value liberty more than life, as my fore fathers did ... "Give me liberty or give me death" and all that.

Desk trauma · Jun 8, 2019

mukk_in said:
That being said, fossil fuels can be made cleaner as well, like clean coal, for example.

Clean coal is not an example of anything but empty rhetoric. It does not exist. Coal is deadly to humans and harmful to the environment at every stage of its production and use. The sooner the coal fire power plant goes the way of the whale oil fueled lamp the better.

mukk_in · Jun 8, 2019

I can understand the passion of people who hate coal....lol. Clean coal does exist....lol.. A simple version can be found on Wikipedia. It's a combination of chemical washing, wet scrubbers/ESP, carbon capture from flue gases and so on. Granted, this technology is still in it's infancy and there are cost and efficacy questions. But, it's a viable technology and will save jobs of those in the fossil fuel sector. Gradual replacement of fossil fuels and not a sudden shock treatment may be less disruptive.

Philip_B · Jun 9, 2019

mukk_in said:
I can understand the passion of people who hate coal....lol. Clean coal does exist....lol.. A simple version can be found on Wikipedia. It's a combination of chemical washing, wet scrubbers/ESP, carbon capture from flue gases and so on. Granted, this technology is still in it's infancy and there are cost and efficacy questions. But, it's a viable technology and will save jobs of those in the fossil fuel sector. Gradual replacement of fossil fuels and not a sudden shock treatment may be less disruptive.

The Wikipedia article makes much of the clean coal technologies to reduce SO2 and NOX and seems very quiet on the subject of CO2. Whilst I have no expertise in this area, I understand that whilst SO2 and NOX are more lethal and damaging to human health, a great deal of the issue when it comes to the health of the planet seems to have much to do with CO2 so I would still see that as a problem. No doubt there are many who know more than me, and I appreciate the need to save the jobs and livelihoods of those who work in the area, however we need also to have a wider picture, it seems to me.

I 100% agree with the notion of the need for there to be some progression, not just a simple event and we stop using coal, however a 5% solution shows simply that we don't care very much.

This earth is entrusted to us as a sacred trust in our generation, and part of that trust is to hand it on for generations yet unborn. In many senses what we are talking about is a stewardship question. We need more work in this area and I am thankful for those who do work in this area, and for those who can bring a Christian perspective to the task. At present it seems that we have some numbers that have been agreed to as targets by many responsible nations, yet despite their assurances that we are on track to meet those targets, the specific plans see to go fuzzy on detail.

Our care of the environment, like our care for our brothers and sisters in humanity, are an honourable working out of our faith in response to God the Maker and Creator of all.

ps: I don't hate coal, the city I live it would be a basket case without it.

mukk_in · Jun 9, 2019

Philip_B said:
The Wikipedia article makes much of the clean coal technologies to reduce SO2 and NOX and seems very quiet on the subject of CO2. Whilst I have no expertise in this area, I understand that whilst SO2 and NOX are more lethal and damaging to human health, a great deal of the issue when it comes to the health of the planet seems to have much to do with CO2 so I would still see that as a problem. No doubt there are many who know more than me, and I appreciate the need to save the jobs and livelihoods of those who work in the area, however we need also to have a wider picture, it seems to me.

I 100% agree with the notion of the need for there to be some progression, not just a simple event and we stop using coal, however a 5% solution shows simply that we don't care very much.

This earth is entrusted to us as a sacred trust in our generation, and part of that trust is to hand it on for generations yet unborn. In many senses what we are talking about is a stewardship question. We need more work in this area and I am thankful for those who do work in this area, and for those who can bring a Christian perspective to the task. At present it seems that we have some numbers that have been agreed to as targets by many responsible nations, yet despite their assurances that we are on track to meet those targets, the specific plans see to go fuzzy on detail.

Our care of the environment, like our care for our brothers and sisters in humanity, are an honourable working out of our faith in response to God the Maker and Creator of all.

ps: I don't hate coal, the city I live it would be a basket case without it.

I didn't mean that you hated coal, my friend, some folks do. Wiki article is for beginners. There are tons of research articles published on this topic every year. "Renewable Energy" is a Journal that my colleague edits and is a good place to start. CO_2 reduction is through carbon capture, effluent treatment and so on. All aspects are addressed. Journal articles are more comprehensive.

With Modi back at the helm, there's a big push for clean coal in India as well.

This technology existed back in the 90's when I was at Virginia Tech but still maturing. Peace in Christ.

mukk_in · Jun 9, 2019

I would like to take a moment to thank everyone for participating in this debate. I pray that we'll prevail upon our lawmakers to pass sensible and gradual legislation that'll both protect the environment and facilitate the reaping of it's natural bounty for all humankind. Thank you and please continue the debate.

Zoii · Jun 9, 2019

Curtis.Hilliker said:
Genesis 8:22

"As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."

In the context of this thread - what are you trying to say

Zoii · Jun 9, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Those scientists should employ 'vertical integration': Do the research and apply the solutions. Problem solved.

It is the scientists role to do the research. It is the role of government and industry to apply the knowledge gained through research. We must not blame scientists for the failure of those with power to implement the knowledge provided in abundance through science.

Zoii · Jun 9, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Regarding global warming (and all other problems);

"The seriousness of any problem can be measured by our response to it."

-OldWiseGuy

Theres zero evidence to suggest that is true. If you can show me a single piece of research which backs that up, then perhaps your statements may have credibility.

Zoii · Jun 9, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Also pelletized wood burns cleaner as I understand it. Another aspect of burning wood is that is replaces long-buried fossil fuels thus returning the carbon cycle to the earth's surface rather than adding huge amounts of already sequestered carbon

This whole topic is about CO2 being pumped into our atmosphere thus warming the earth's atmosphere and exacerbating extreme weather patterns. I feel your response has failed to take that into consideration.

That said at least you are considering the problem and reaching for alternative ideas....its just they need to be non-CO2 producing.

Postvieww · Jun 9, 2019

ThievingMagpie said:
What would people perpetrating a climate hoax stand to gain?

Your money!

OldWiseGuy · Jun 9, 2019

Zoii said:
It is the scientists role to do the research. It is the role of government and industry to apply the knowledge gained through research. We must not blame scientists for the failure of those with power to implement the knowledge provided in abundance through science.

"If you want something done, (often) you have to do it yourself."

OldWiseGuy · Jun 9, 2019

Zoii said:
Theres zero evidence to suggest that is true. If you can show me a single piece of research which backs that up, then perhaps your statements may have credibility.

You're asking the fox to guard the henhouse. Why research something that you know will make you look bad?

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