The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

Grip Docility said:

Castration is a symbol of being cutoff. Paul eludes to this in Galatians.

Had you said Circumcision... I would have been cool.

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Correct you are. My error...

bcbsr said:

If you follow Paul's argument give in Romans 4, Abraham was given a promise in Gen 15:5, then the next moment according to Gen 15:6 he believed the promise and was reckoned righteous, there being no intervening work between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6, a fact which Paul utilized to say that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works. He didn't have to prove anything to be justified. He simply had to believe God.

This is in contrast to the salvation-by-works gospel whereby one must prove they believe that they are saved by works by doing works. Quite a different gospel. It's essentially a modified version of the gospel of the sect of the Circumcision.

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Gen 15-16 records the outcome - Abraham was credited for righteousness. At this point, Abraham was 100 years old (Romans 4:9). Abraham was called by God at age 75, he had faith in God in all that 25 years, and God blessed him abundantly. Shouldn't he be credited with righteousness much earlier?

In Romans 4, Paul explains the situation that led to the credit of righteousness.

At 100 years old, Abraham considered his own body dead and Sarah's womb was dead (Romans 4:19). What it means is that Abraham knew they cannot have a child. But he believed God and was able to perform (verse 21). 'Perform' is an action, what action was Abraham performing? The Bible is general reading and can't go into details, but we know what those actions were. 'Perform' was immediately followed by 'and therefore', which is the outcome of his performance, he was credited for righteousness.

Physically, Abraham and Sarah cannot have a baby, that child was a miracle from God. Abraham cannot be credited for works because his performance counted for nothing because Sarah was barren.

Contrast this with James teaching where Abraham was justified by works. IN James' example, Abraham was capable of carrying out God's will, but God stopped him.

Grip Docility said:

How can I not agree, when Ephesians 2:8-9 agrees with you?

Faith in Jesus, indicates His already waiting gift of Grace and so much more, is simply waiting for our Gospel response.... but... I caught your point.

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The concept of salvation by grace through faith includes verse 10, which faith alone advocates always truncate. Verse 10 begins with 'for', a conjunction that connects verse 9 to 10.

def said:

Gen 15-16 records the outcome - Abraham was credited for righteousness. At this point, Abraham was 100 years old (Romans 4:9). Abraham was called by God at age 75, he had faith in God in all that 25 years, and God blessed him abundantly. Shouldn't he be credited with righteousness much earlier?

In Romans 4, Paul explains the situation that led to the credit of righteousness.

At 100 years old, Abraham considered his own body dead and Sarah's womb was dead (Romans 4:19). What it means is that Abraham knew they cannot have a child. But he believed God and was able to perform (verse 21). 'Perform' is an action, what action was Abraham performing? The Bible is general reading and can't go into details, but we know what those actions were. 'Perform' was immediately followed by 'and therefore', which is the outcome of his performance, he was credited for righteousness.

Physically, Abraham and Sarah cannot have a baby, that child was a miracle from God. Abraham cannot be credited for works because his performance counted for nothing because Sarah was barren.

Contrast this with James teaching where Abraham was justified by works. IN James' example, Abraham was capable of carrying out God's will, but God stopped him.

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Notice the text the Paul is focusing on and his point in Romans 4, namely justification by faith apart from works. Abraham's justification was based not upon what he had done up to that point, nor upon any work he did later on, but rather simply because he believed the promise of God.

So also for the Christian, "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 God made a promise, presented in different ways, like John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" Upon believing that promise a person is given eternal life and will not be condemned. It's a one time, one way door - as if he crossed over from death to life, which is to say such a person is eternally secure. To many Christians it's unbelievable and so in their unbelief they tinker with the gospel to make salvation contingent upon one's performance rather than upon one's faith in God's promise.

bcbsr said:

Notice the text the Paul is focusing on and his point in Romans 4, namely justification by faith apart from works. Abraham's justification was based not upon what he had done up to that point, nor upon any work he did later on, but rather simply because he believed the promise of God.

So also for the Christian, "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 God made a promise, presented in different ways, like John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" Upon believing that promise a person is given eternal life and will not be condemned. It's a one time, one way door - as if he crossed over from death to life, which is to say such a person is eternally secure. To many Christians it's unbelievable and so in their unbelief they tinker with the gospel to make salvation contingent upon one's performance rather than upon one's faith in God's promise.

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You are right, Abraham's justification is for a particular event and it follows that it has nothing to do with whether Abraham was saved.

You quoted John 5:24, which teaches the condition for eternal life. John defines eternal life as knowing God and Jesus Christ, 'eternal life' is not the state of a person but a relationship with God through Jesus Christ (John 17.3). John 11:24-25 states that the first 'believe' brings us into this relationship with God. A person who has this relationship will never die - John 11:25.

What do we do in this relationship? In the Old Covenant, the Israelites were given the Law. Paul teaches that the gospel (good news) reveals a righteousness of God, apart from the Law, and this righteousness is by faith. That is the reason Paul calls us to live by faith even though we are justified - the just must live by faith (Romans 1:17).

And in this relationship, we can be justified by works, by the faith of Christ, and by the blood of Christ. Therefore, justification by faith IS NOT ALONE, but is accompanied by the three other justifications.

bcbsr said:

Between the promise being given and Abraham believing it (the very next instance) there was no work which Abraham did. Yet he was saved by faith apart from works (See Paul's interpretation of that event in Romans 4) So he didn't have to prove his faith in order to be saved. For he was saved prior to doing anything.

So are you saying that you have to prove your faith by your works in order to be saved?

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The works one is Not saved by... What are they?
Works of the Law...!
Did abraham.do any such works ?No!
Did he believe God? Yes
How do we know?
He acted in obedience.
No where does the scripture say stop disobeying and Do nothing.
Because doing nothing IS disobedient.
No where are we saved by works of the Law.
No where are we saved without obeying the Gospel.
Scripture warns those who " disobey " the gospel.
Obedience is the evidence of true believing and the action of faith is the evidence.

Do you think abraham took hus promised son issac up to a mountain to sacrifice him and raised the knife because he Didnt believe God?
No..he did it because he Did believe so he acted in faith that God would raise the boy again.
And his faith (obedient action... Zero works of law) was credited to him as righteousness.

Grip Docility said:

We all are Sola Fide and agree we have to respond to the Gospel with Belief.

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I know your talking to hm but I must say I am not Sola Fide or any Sola, or Solo like Hans Solo

Grip Docility said:

Mods don't think that we fail Christ in faith and deed throughout our Christian Walk? Is the Doctrine of perfection taught?

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I was notified that "sinless perfection" is on their list of things not to be written of here.
As there would be no tolerance for falling away or loss of faith in "my" realm of Christianity, it is at odds with your comment of "I disagree that Peters walk is any different than any other Christians, in that we fail Him,"

Have I offended you, sibling in Jesus?

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You haven't offended me in any way, but if you want to talk further about life without sin, we will need to go to "private message".

Grip Docility said:

When we are baptized into His Death, it is the Holy Spirit of He that lives in us, Who resurrected, that is seen by God. (Romans 8:9) It is the ascended Son who is our propitiation, at the right hand of God.

Our flesh is in the tomb.

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Would you please edit this a tad, for clarity?

-57 said:

I'm glad i can rest on this from Romans 8.
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can you?

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Do you think Demas, (2 Tim 4:10), Hymenaeus and Alexander, (1 Tim 1:20), or Phygellus, Hermogenes, and the rest of Asia, (2 Tim 1:15) were still "saved" after leaving the church?
I don't.

God's love is still available for them, but the next move is their's. And if they don't repent of their wickedness they will not be found in Father's hand.

Grip Docility said:

Philippians 2:13

My Works?
His Works?
Our Works?

Justification/Sanctification

Skubala ...

A Brief Word Study on Σκύβαλον | Bible.org

1. Dung, (Human) Excrement
(especially in the plural, as in Philippians 3:8); or with a stronger emotive connotation (and the concomitant shock value), crap, ****. NT: Phil 3:8* (debatable; may belong under definition 2); Other: Plu. 2.352d; Alex. Aphr. Pr. 1.18; Aret. SD1.15; Artemid. Onirocr. 1.67; 2.14; Str. 14.1.37; J. BJ 5.571; 5.13.7; PFay. 119.7 (i/ii AD).

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My works? See Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5.

His work? See John 6:44, 2 Timothy 2:25, John 16:8, Romans 12:3.

Our works? See Philippians 2:12-13, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:22-23.

Justification/Sanctification? See 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Oscarr said:

The last part of the reference is the important one concerning what we do after we are saved by grace through faith. If we thought we could be saved through the works of God's moral law, we would have something to boast about - that we are getting to heaven because we are good people, only sinned a few times but mostly good. But once we are saved through knowing that we are no good, worth only to be thrown into the lake of fire like when the garden weeds are thrown into the incinerator, and accepting that Jesus paid the price for us when He died on the cross, then, taking Him as our Lord, we place ourselves in His hands for Him to work in us to do the works of righteousness that He has ordained for us to do. So we do practice righteousness after we are saved, but the Lord's way and not our own. Instead of the Law being a duty and a burden, it becomes our love and delight, and we regret that we can't do it perfectly as our hearts wants.

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As the newborn man, the new creature, is gendered from God's seed, (1 John 3:9), there is nothing to regret.

Alithis said:

phil..we cant dicuss the mods but they are people from all manner of denomination but are given a set script of rules.
But no one is teaching sinless perfection.

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Let's replace "sinless perfection" with "complete obedience to God".
Perhaps that will be more palatable for those monitoring the site.
I teach complete obedience to God.

Grip Docility said:

Peter displayed himself as a sinful man before Jesus, upon their first meeting.
Sinless Doctrine, other than that which says... “He Who knew no sin, became sin...” and such forth... disgusts me.
Under no uncertain terms do I make a false Segway for it. Sinless Doctrine is to exalt mankind, which is sinful, and only declared righteous by God... “Like God”. I have loathing for Isaiah 14:14.
This is my honest stance.

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If you see no difference between the repentant and the liar, how can I trust you, or you me?
See my problem?
Again, for more conversation, PM me.

Is it unlawful to do good things in the Sabbath (Our Rest in Jesus Christ’s DBR)? Absolutely not! But... that is my stance.

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Mine too.

All honest love to you, my sibling in Jesus Christ.
I await Glory to glory. I have this hope. I would not be a person to speak to about Carnal Exaltation.

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As the carnal portion of those who walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh was killed with Jesus Christ, (Rom 6:3-7), obedience to God is not "carnally exhalted" but Spiritually celebrated...to the glory of God.

What exactly is perfection, when grace is necessary to be righteous?