Definition of Christian

From Definition of CHRISTIAN

everbecoming2007 said:

I am familiar with implicit or hidden Christians, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian? Most would define Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals (my faith of origin) outside Christianity.

But how do we do this? Are Quakers, for example, not Christians since they reject sacraments, a clearly biblical and historical Christian set of practices? Can someone be a Christian without baptism?

What are your thoughts?

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To be a Christian is freedom from works salvation. All works. We now do works because we are regenerated, Holy Spirit filled people who are in the Body of Christ and members of the Kingdom of God. I say this because you listed things that are practices and not necessarily relational. So.."How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian?" We can not read the heart of man. Only God can do that. We just need to stay as close to scripture when discerning our walk with the Lord so that He will not say "I never knew you".
Blessings

everbecoming2007 said:

I am familiar with implicit or hidden Christians, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian? Most would define Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals (my faith of origin) outside Christianity.

But how do we do this? Are Quakers, for example, not Christians since they reject sacraments, a clearly biblical and historical Christian set of practices? Can someone be a Christian without baptism?

What are your thoughts?

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We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.

everbecoming2007 said:

How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian? Most would define Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals (my faith of origin) outside Christianity.

But how do we do this? Are Quakers, for example, not Christians since they reject sacraments, a clearly biblical and historical Christian set of practices? Can someone be a Christian without baptism?

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I consider people/churches/systems Christian if they look to Jesus for salvation, or for the forgiveness of sins, or at least as a primary example of how one should live one's life. That means I would include JWs, LDS, Oneness Pentecostals, and some Unitarians as Christians. In the ancient world, I consider Arian, Apollinarian, and Nestorian Christians as all being Christians. All these groups are unorthodox in one way or another, but they're Christian, in a way that, say, Hindus, are not; they're trying to be disciples of Jesus.

Quakers are an interesting example. I worshipped at a Friends Meeting for a few years, and I saw two things there: 1) Because there's no creed or governing authority that Friends have to obey, their theology was all over the map. Some were explicitly Christian; others were uncomfortable committing to saying the word "God". But 2) they followed the teachings of Jesus more faithfully than any other Christian group I've been acquainted with, including Episcopalians. I've pondered that paradox for years; iffy theology, paired with faithful lives. I would most definitely call them Christian, in the sense of disciples of Jesus. I imagine many of them at the Last Day saying "Were you the hungry person we fed, and the prisoner we visited? I had no idea."

I make the distinction between the denomination and the person. There are Christians within unorthodox (non-Nicene creed) denominations and some of those within those denominations have faith in the historic Christ but are still (as we all are) growing in Truth.

PloverWing said:

I've pondered that paradox for years; iffy theology, paired with faithful lives.

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I know a local Anglican abbot who has a couple of different ministries: he has a Wednesday radio show and he runs a large food pantry that is even certified by the USDA. One day he got on his radio show and said that in his city, the Mormons were more faithful in their manner of life than any of the Protestants he knew. He cited the fact that each day the pantry is open, they make sure that 5 or 6 of their people are there to help him. Then, he specifically chastised the local Anglican communities because it is rare indeed that any of them help him.

Within the next week, he had been chastised by at least half a dozen bishops or priests who took his remarks as an endorsement of the LDS.

The Nicene Creed. That about does it.

everbecoming2007 said:

I am familiar with implicit or hidden Christians, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian? Most would define Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals (my faith of origin) outside Christianity.[/quote
That's correct.

[quote But how do we do this? Are Quakers, for example, not Christians since they reject sacraments, a clearly biblical and historical Christian set of practices? Can someone be a Christian without baptism?

What are your thoughts?

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The churches, etc. you first named (Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals) and others that have been labelled as cults are in that category because they reject one or more of three principles that are so basic to Christianity, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, that they must be seen as "outside Christianity" except in the most casual sense of the term.

1. Considering other sacred writings of their own to be the equivalent of the Bible.

2. Denying the nature of God

3. Denying the nature of Man

All of those churches accord with one or more of these three views. Traditional Quakers probably do also (since you mentioned Quakerism) but there are such substantial variations between the several Quaker denominations/jurisdictions now that it would be wrong to classify all Quakers one way or the other.

A lot more could be said, but think about the churches you named -- in terms of the three points -- and see if it is not the case that they all "fit."

Hi. Thanks for your question.

First, I should probably say that the three points I mentioned represent something of a consensus among cult-watching academics, organizations, and the like. Some would add a fourth or even a fifth, but these are basically agreed to.

You knew right away why each of the named churches run afoul of one or more of the points, but I am not surprised that there is a question about the point number three.

And I could possibly have spared readers the uncertainty that prompted your question, but that is the way the points are often presented, so I went with it. (!) For one thing, it makes points two and three seem parallel to each other when worded that way, and that seems reasonable to me.

Anyway, what is meant by the Nature of Man is that orthodox Christianity believes that Man is endowed with an immortal soul. Therefore, any teaching of conditional immortality, annihilationism, or even (most would say) soul sleep, goes the other way.

Quakers. The problem with slotting Quakers one way or the other when it comes to the main point of this thread is that they come in so many varieties and it is generally accepted among Quakers that this diversity is natural. Some are close to Unitarian Universalists, but others are much more orthodox. Interestingly enough, the drift in recent decades towards the first of those has produced a reaction--the Evangelical Quakers--whose local churches are often hard to distinguish from a typical Bible Church. These Evangelical Quakers are said to account now for about one-third of all American Quakers.

everbecoming2007 said:

Even the traditional Quakers remain ambiguous I agree because while I don't think they would have denied say, the trinity, I'm not so sure they wouldn't allow an individual to. Is this what you're getting at?

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I agree with you there, but I mentioned the Quakers in my reply because you did...and because you may have a special interest in them. I generally do not bring them up when the topic is cults or groups that might be outside of the Christian faith. And that is because a Quaker norm is almost impossible to identify. Some Quakers fit the definition (of a cult, theologically speaking; not mind control, gurus, etc), while others do not, they cross jurisdictional lines, and for those who do fit the description, it could be because of any of the three points!

How would you say their rejection of baptism and eucharist affects their Christian status?

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I don't think it does. And the same goes for members of the Salvation Army.

By this question I should clarify that I wouldn't presume to judge their Christian status before God, but I am concerned here with a theological status, not making judgment on their salvation.

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Right.

everbecoming2007 said:

I am familiar with implicit or hidden Christians, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

How do we define which churches and theological systems are Christian? Most would define Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals (my faith of origin) outside Christianity.

But how do we do this? Are Quakers, for example, not Christians since they reject sacraments, a clearly biblical and historical Christian set of practices? Can someone be a Christian without baptism?

What are your thoughts?

Click to expand...

This was a question the church had to deal with a long time ago, and this is the answer they came up with...

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ , the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Believe that, you're in. Don't, you're out. Of course today, the situation has become considerably more complicated because most heresy preached today is moral heresy not doctrinal heresy.

everbecoming2007 said:

Do you then exclude from the definition of Christian the traditional Quakers who nevertheless identify as Christian but reject baptism?

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Correct.

Not only do Quakers reject baptism, they reject communion.

George Fox taught that the sacraments (ordinances if you're of a Zwinglian bent) were impediments to having a relationship with God and rejected Christ's command in Matthew 28:19 and 1st Corinthians 11:24 in addition to those components of the Nicene Creed that conflicted with his personal opinions.

Although it is a religion that uses some Christian terminology, its doctrine (like some other better known cults today) places it outside the fence of Christian belief.

Throughout history, many cults have attempted to identify themselves as Christian but in the end an objective definition does exist outside of personal opinion.

Newtheran said:

Although it is a religion that uses some Christian terminology, its doctrine (like some other better known cults today) places it outside the fence of Christian belief.

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We'll have to put that into the category of a personal opinion, since it is almost universally agreed that the Quakers are a Christian branch, although a very theologically liberal one...and this only applies to SOME branches, since others are almost indistinguishable from run of the mill Evangelicals.

The rejection of all sacraments is hardly any different, when you think about it, from what Baptists and their offspring teach about them, refusing to attach anything but symbolism to their "ordinances" of Baptism and Communion. And yet these people are always considered to be Christian.

Albion said:

We'll have to put that into the category of a personal opinion, since it is almost universally agreed that the Quakers are a Christian branch, although a very theologically liberal one...and this only applies to SOME branches, since others are almost indistinguishable from run of the mill Evangelicals.

The rejection of all sacraments is hardly any different, when you think about it, from what Baptists and their offspring teach about them, refusing to attach anything but symbolism to their "ordinances" of Baptism and Communion. And yet these people are always considered to be Christian.

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It is "almost universally agreed" that Quakers are a Christian branch by whom exactly? Seems like that is a bit of a personal opinion because if you take the objective standards by which Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, other Reformers and yes, Baptists define what is Christian, the Quakers fall outside all those definitions

Baptists call baptism and communion ordinances but they do observe them.

Anglicanism may call them Christian, but that hardly makes for a universal agreement in that matter.

Newtheran said:

It is "almost universally agreed" that Quakers are a Christian branch by whom exactly?

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Pick up almost any reference work, history book, or etc., consult any people or organizations that research in this field and keep statistics, the National Council of Churches, and so on, and you will find Quakers along with the other denominations. Or check research and publications dealing with cults and notice the absence of an entry for Quakers.

Seems like that is a bit of a personal opinion because if you take the objective standards by which Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, other Reformers and yes, Baptists define what is Christian, the Quakers fall outside all those definitions.

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That just isn't true, although you can indeed find individual members who do (just as with other Christian churches).

Baptists call baptism and communion ordinances but they do observe them.

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They consider them to be merely gestures on our part, so what's the difference?

Anglicanism may call them Christian, but that hardly makes for a universal agreement in that matter.

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Well, Lutheranism does as well, so that isn't much of an argument.

Albion said:

Pick up almost any reference work, history book, or etc., consult any people or organizations that research in this field and keep statistics, the National Council of Churches, and so on, and you will find Quakers along with the other denominations. Or check research and publications dealing with cults and notice the absence of an entry for Quakers.

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Quakers - Are They Christians or are they members of a cult?

Quakers: a personal testimony by an ex-Quaker

Membership in the NCC is simply membership in the NCC.