The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

Tone · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
If we have to work, it is no more faith

What if we get to work?

GodsGrace101 · May 27, 2019

Your little angel there is peaceful and so should we be knowing we are in the hands of Jesus---God.

I'll be waiting for part 2.

All I can say is that either doctrinal belief will not save us but only Jesus will save us.

The problem, as I see it - if I may - is that some believe that no matter HOW they live, they will be saved because they walked down an isle, said a prayer and have "accepted" Jesus. THIS cannot be biblical.

Those that say works are not necessary, but ARE doing them....I have no problem with; except I wish they would not encourage the other group I just mentioned.

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
What if we get to work?

Close but no cigar. We have always had the opportunity to work. One problem. Our carnal nature insures our failure. Amen?

And how much do we have to produce to insure we make the cut? There is no peace nor assurance on this path, that is for sure.

blessings,

Gids

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Your little angel there is peaceful and so should we be knowing we are in the hands of Jesus---God.

I'll be waiting for part 2.

All I can say is that either doctrinal belief will not save us but only Jesus will save us.

The problem, as I see it - if I may - is that some believe that no matter HOW they live, they will be saved because they walked down an isle, said a prayer and have "accepted" Jesus. THIS cannot be biblical.

Those that say works are not necessary, but ARE doing them....I have no problem with; except I wish they would not encourage the other group I just mentioned.

Yes, you are correct, this is not biblical. I will share a small hint.

What is works are not required, but promised? If that is true, and it is, it changes everything. But it also presents a huge dilemma, and for both sides, because up till now, neither side is found walking in that promise.

All that is about to change..... and it will be glorious, for those who truly long to be changed.

blessings,

Gideon

Tone · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Close but no cigar. We have always had the opportunity to work. One problem. Our carnal nature insures our failure. Amen?

And how much do we have to produce to insure we make the cut? There is no peace nor assurance on this path, that is for sure.

blessings,

Gids

It is the attitude of the regenerate heart that says, "I desire to and I get to work the good works!".

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
It is the attitude of the regenerate heart that says, "I desire to and I get to work the good works!".

You are absolutely correct. And yet, where is the fruits of this truth?

We have been taight that it takes time, and that if we just hang in there, God will somehow make us holier and holier. But if this were the case, would we not see the older saints, those who have walked with the Lord for decades, as shining lights for the younger believers, encouraging them with their abundant fruits of love and selflessness to stay the course? And..... do we? Sadly, no.

Something is missing. And our eyes are about to be opened to what we have missed.

blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

I will not draw this out for increased drama. LOL.

Let me give a bit of personal background, however, to set the stage. I am one of those oldies and have walked with the Lord, if you can call it that, for almost 50 years. For the first 38 years, I was the poster boy for Romans 7. I wanted more then anything to defeat sin in my life, to love others as I loved myself, and above all, to truly love the Lord with ALL of my heart, mind, soul and strength.

But in the end, I found the things ai truly wanted to do... to be... were fleeting mirages, and self still ruled the roost.

But 12 years ago, God visited me. Yes, face to face.... well, more like face to back of neck. And He showed me what I had been missing. Without it, failure was guaranteed, but with it? Ah.... with it, I found that for even a weak wretch like me, addicted to inappropriate content and sexual lust, success was not only offered. It was guaranteed!

I have shared my testimony of that miraculous night several times over the years, but right now, it is far more important to discover the key piece we have been missing.

Works..... what James termed 'fruits'..... have been promised to us. They are not something we do, but something that our amazing God causes us to produce.

Does He make us robots, as some have asked me? No way. We are active participants. And yet, something has prevented this from happening, even if we long for fruits to be produced in us.

That is coming up in part three. What will be shared there has been hidden from our understanding for 1900 years save a few glorious exceptions, yet have been plainly stated in scripture. There is no need to weave various scriptures into some "new" doctrine, where people yell "heretic!", LOL.

So if your heart is hungry for an intimate relationship with Jesus Himself, and you long to stop bringing dishonor to Him with the life you have been living, hang in there. It is about to get amazing.

Blessings,

Gideon

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

Hello God's Grace.

I have never met or heard anyone say that the following is true.

The problem, as I see it - if I may - is that some believe that no matter HOW they live, they will be saved because they walked down an isle, said a prayer and have "accepted" Jesus. THIS cannot be biblical.

I don't think anyone would believe such a silly idea?

Those that bear the fruit are the believers in Jesus Christ, that is how you know who a Christian is.

Though we are not saved because we bore that fruit.

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

It is important at this point to make sure we understand what James means by works. It is not certain good deeds, or giving the poor. If that were the case, then we must ask ourselves how many good deeds are enough. How much of our income must we give to the poor to please God.

Are these things good? Absolutely, but can one do those things and yet not walk pleasing to God? You bet. We are told we can even give our bodies to be burned and die a martyr, and yet, if we have not love... true agape love.... selfless love... we are nothing but a squeaking rusty gate. Ouch.

BUT, if these things flow from a heart filled with the supernatural love of God, ahhh.... now we are in the right arena...... fruits of the Spirit.

Are we called to produced fruit? Nope. If we struggle with impatience, exactly what exercise can we do to become more patient? Good luck with that! LOL.

No, brothers and sisters. We are called to abide in the vine, and the promise He has given every single one of us, no matter how weak we are, no matter what our situation, is that if we abide in Him, we WILL produce fruit... guaranteed!

What mist we then conclude, if the fruits of the Spirit are noticeably absent from our lives? We have not known how to abide in Him.

I am sure some will be up in arms with this statement but think for a minute. What did Jesus tell us about those who abide in the vine? They WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Whoa.

So what is the missing piece to the puzzle? How do we abide in Him, 24/7 and discover, to our joy and amazement that those promised fruits of the Spirit fill us full? That is coming next.

I hate to do this, but it will have to be tomorrow before I can share with you what God revealed to me, but I can tell you this. In my own life, I walked for 38 years in sin and defeat. I was not an overcomer, but overcome by the enemy of my soul.

But what He gave me that amazing night 12 years ago has proven to me that His promises are yea and amen. I have seen a selfish, hard man become softer. I have seen love replace hate, patience replace impatience. Self control replace yielding myself to my sinful desires.

Have I arrived? Ha! I have far, far to go, but God continues to make His promises to cause me to bear fruit a reality. And if He can do it for a wretch like me, then there is none within the sound of my voice exempt from that promise, IF that is the desire of your heart.

Good night, friends. I promise to continue this tomorrow, Lord willing.

blessings,

Gideon

Tone · May 27, 2019

John 12
"23But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24Truly, truly, I tell you,unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies,it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
John 12
"23But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24Truly, truly, I tell you,unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies,it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

Ahhhh, now you are getting VERY warm!

Tone · May 27, 2019

John 15:7
"7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

I ask to abide still more...and be evermore fruitful!

*And to show me my friends.

Amen.

**In the Name of Yahshua ha Mashiach...Amen.

Not me · May 27, 2019

@Gideons300

Your still a poop-butt for going to sleep and making us wait.

I’m going to ask God to bless/smite those that bring discord to His body! lol.

Blessings, welcome back, long time no talk to. :wave:

Much love in Christ, Not me

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

The controversy is pointless, it doesn't exist in the New Testament. Sometimes works can be works of the Law, which was rejected by the New Testament church at the Council of Jerusalem. James, who basically chaired the whole thing and commissioned the writing of Galatians speaks of another kind of works in James 2. Have you ever asked yourself, what works is James talking about? It's in the immediate context.

TheSeabass · May 28, 2019

"faith vs. works"

Faith and works are not antagonistic to each other. The Bible ties faith to works so closely that faith is a work:
1 Thessalonians 1:3
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Galatians 5:6
Mark 2:1-5
John 6:27-29
John 3:36

Therefore faith without works is dead. No one has ever shown/proven how a faith void of obedience to the will of God can save.

Danthemailman · May 28, 2019

Gideons300 said:
The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

Albion · May 28, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

Gideon, the opening descriptions of neither of those POVs seems correct to me, but since you are planning to explain further, I will stay tuned and see how the rest of your presentation goes.

And how much do we have to produce to insure we make the cut? There is no peace nor assurance on this path, that is for sure.

Yes. And that is a serious problem with the Faith plus Works argument that unfortunately is seldom raised.

Works..... what James termed 'fruits'..... have been promised to us. They are not something we do, but something that our amazing God causes us to produce.

All right, but that is a classic argument that is made by the Faith Alone people. It is not something that bridges the gap between the two sides of the argument IMO.

Gideons300 · May 28, 2019

Albion said:
Gideon, the opening descriptions of neither of those POVs seems correct to me, but since you are planning to explain further, I will stay tuned and see how the rest of your presentation goes.

Yes. And that is a serious problem with the Faith plus Works argument that unfortunately is seldom raised.

All right, but that is a classic argument that is made by the Faith Alone people. It is not something that bridges the gap between the two sides of the argument IMO.

Thanks for your input. Good stuff.

To those who think that faith alone is what saves us, and obedience is not part of the equation once we are saved, we are forced to ignore rhe multitude of verses that say the opposite. Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do those things that I command you?" To those who take the OSAS position, what answer is there?

Did the unprofitable servant who made no gain with what he had been entrusted have what was given to him taken away and given to another? Indeed he did.

Obedience is never done away with under the new covenant in the Word. I can list ten scriptures that confirm this.

But to all those who are in the faith plus works camp, how many works? How long must we work to be assured we have done enough?

These agree that obedience is a part of our salvation, but wait. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, to forgive seventy times seven. He told us to love God with ALL of our hearts. How is that working for us?

If we obey 70% of the time, is that enough? And how do we know? He left no loophole taking into account our 'humanity'. He said for us to DO IT.

Thus, we find that if we make obedience an absolute condition to our salvation, with no exceptions, who then can be saved.

Both sides are looking at it from different points of view, but scripturally, both are in error to one degree or another.

This brings us to a crisis of faith, for we MUST obey, and yet, in truth, we are not obeying. What is missing? What are we not understanding that gives us both the assurance of our salvation, but also produces true heart obedience in our walks.

There is but one way, The new man. Paul tells us that we died when Christ died, amen? Our old nature died when He died. Likewise, we are told that when Christ rose from the dead, we rose with Him to newness of life.

Most everyone will nod their heads in agreement but then say "Well, so what?" We mentally agree with these truths, but we have failed to understand that these truths must be PUT ON. We must, by faith, appropriate them as our own.

Here is the error we have fallen into. We think this is some sort of positional thing, but it is far more than that. If we truly love the Lord, we ARE new creatures, Christ is no longer with us. He is IN us!

Some will protest however. They will say that it changes nothing. We still have the flesh to deal with. Yes, we still reside in fleshly bodies, but our nature is NEW. Sin has no authority over this new nature. Paul tell us clearly in Romans 8 that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it a big fat NOTHING.

So why do we not see this working in our walks? We have missed the key that unlocks the lock to obedience. It is found back in Romans 6 right after Paul tells us we died with Christ and rose to newness of life.

What does he say? He tells us to DO something! What? He tells us, that knowing these are indisputable facts, to therefore reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.

When I have my miraculous visitation now twelve years ago, this is exactly what God brought me to. I had done a multitude of things to try to walk in obedience and all failed. I had fasted up to 21 days, memorized scripture, never missed church, worked as a home pastor and in jail ministry, and in the end I was still just a religious but very carnal Christian, and not walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God He had promised us. Free indeed? Ha! Sin had me still.

But when I received the revelation that I had never actually believed that I was a new creature, right here, right now, and I finally stepped out in faith and confessed that I owed the flesh not one more sin, that I had a new nature, one that not only wanted to obey but COULD obey, the gigantic door blocking me from walking as an overcomer swung open, and everything changed, and I do mean everything.

More to come......

blessings,

Gids

Grip Docility · May 28, 2019

Gideons300 said:
It is important at this point to make sure we understand what James means by works. It is not certain good deeds, or giving the poor. If that were the case, then we must ask ourselves how many good deeds are enough. How much of our income must we give to the poor to please God.

Are these things good? Absolutely, but can one do those things and yet not walk pleasing to God? You bet. We are told we can even give our bodies to be burned and die a martyr, and yet, if we have not love... true agape love.... selfless love... we are nothing but a squeaking rusty gate. Ouch.

BUT, if these things flow from a heart filled with the supernatural love of God, ahhh.... now we are in the right arena...... fruits of the Spirit.

Are we called to produced fruit? Nope. If we struggle with impatience, exactly what exercise can we do to become more patient? Good luck with that! LOL.

No, brothers and sisters. We are called to abide in the vine, and the promise He has given every single one of us, no matter how weak we are, no matter what our situation, is that if we abide in Him, we WILL produce fruit... guaranteed!

What mist we then conclude, if the fruits of the Spirit are noticeably absent from our lives? We have not known how to abide in Him.

I am sure some will be up in arms with this statement but think for a minute. What did Jesus tell us about those who abide in the vine? They WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Whoa.

So what is the missing piece to the puzzle? How do we abide in Him, 24/7 and discover, to our joy and amazement that those promised fruits of the Spirit fill us full? That is coming next.

I hate to do this, but it will have to be tomorrow before I can share with you what God revealed to me, but I can tell you this. In my own life, I walked for 38 years in sin and defeat. I was not an overcomer, but overcome by the enemy of my soul.

But what He gave me that amazing night 12 years ago has proven to me that His promises are yea and amen. I have seen a selfish, hard man become softer. I have seen love replace hate, patience replace impatience. Self control replace yielding myself to my sinful desires.

Have I arrived? Ha! I have far, far to go, but God continues to make His promises to cause me to bear fruit a reality. And if He can do it for a wretch like me, then there is none within the sound of my voice exempt from that promise, IF that is the desire of your heart.

Good night, friends. I promise to continue this tomorrow, Lord willing.

blessings,

Gideon

This! ^

Your Christian Name fits you, Brother in Him!

The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Well-Known Member

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

Well-Known Member

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Righteousness is right and not me.

Natura non facit saltum

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Our awakening is beginning. Prepare to be amazed.

Well-Known Member

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