Alabama legislature moves to dispense with marriage licenses and solemnization

hedrick

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This doesn't actually get the state out of marriage. There are laws and other processes that depends upon knowing that someone is officially married. What changes is that instead of needing a license you just have to register your marriage. At that point you have to certify that you've met the requirements, which is all that a license meant. So they've really just bundled the license into the registration.

This seems to be because of SSM. Will people who wouldn't issue licenses for SSM now be willing to register them? It seems like registration involves exactly the same issues as issuing the license.

I don't know the specific requirements of that State, but typically there are age requirements, prohibitions of incest, and it least it used to be a blood test. The article implies that those requirements don't change.
 
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Berean
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Actually it is.



And yet I bet you'd scream bloody murder if Muslims were allowed to have their marriages governed by Sharia law.
What have i to do with Muslims? Sharia is a religio-political system of law. I'm neither part of their religion or their politics.
 
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Berean
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Here we are in the debate forum. How many ministers have been sued for such reasons?
The debatable part is that each person as a christian ministers in their calling. So you have a track record of photographers, bakers and florists, all ministers, forced against their conscience to capitulate or be fined. Is that the kind of freedom you want here in America?
 
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mala

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It's a painful separation. It's hard for most Christians in society, including myself, to grow up in a world of Christian culture and then be told that the country you live in is throwing it away based on secular whims. Within our government's framework, that's certainly possible. It's just irritating.
in perspective your minor "irritations" are probably a giant nothing in comparison to those who have been oppressed by decades of being denied basic freedoms.
 
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RDKirk

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It sounds like there's no change other than that a judge that objects to gay marriage on religious grounds doesn't have to physically issue a marriage license to a gay couple. Now they just have a document from elsewhere. I don't think even in Alabama a pastor could get away with refusing to marry a gay couple if it was a legally required duty.

There has never been a chance of performing a marriage ceremony on anyone becoming a "legally required duty" for a pastor.
 
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essentialsaltes

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The debatable part is that each person as a christian ministers in their calling. So you have a track record of photographers, bakers and florists

Look at those goalposts fly. Speaking as an officiant, I know for a fact that the baker (etc.) does not solemnize the marriage, unless she is also the officiant. So your response is not germane to the topic.
 
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Berean
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There can only be debate if you can state some circumstances.
I explained in #26 above
The debatable part is that each person as a christian ministers in their calling. So you have a track record of photographers, bakers and florists, all ministers, forced against their conscience to capitulate or be fined. Is that the kind of freedom you want here in America?
 
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RDKirk

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The debatable part is that each person as a christian ministers in their calling. So you have a track record of photographers, bakers and florists, all ministers, forced against their conscience to capitulate or be fined. Is that the kind of freedom you want here in America?

A Christian minister is not running a business open to the public. The laws that came to bear upon photographers, bakers, and florists were all based on their being "public accommodations" rather than private organizations--which ministers represent.
 
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RDKirk

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I explained in #26 above

A Christian minister is not running a business open to the public. The laws that came to bear upon photographers, bakers, and florists were all based on their being "public accommodations" rather than private organizations--which ministers represent. No church is a "public accommodation" and nobody is suggesting that it be made so.
 
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Berean
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Look at those goalposts fly. Speaking as an officiant, I know for a fact that the baker (etc.) does not solemnize the marriage, unless she is also the officiant. So your response is not germane to the topic.
They mentioned 'ministers' and I explained what a 'minister' is in the biblical sense.
 
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A Christian minister is not running a business open to the public. The laws that came to bear upon photographers, bakers, and florists were all based on their being "public accommodations" rather than private organizations--which ministers represent. No church is a "public accommodation" and nobody is suggesting that it be made so.
It's still draconian laws that bear down against human conscience.
 
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RDKirk

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It's still draconian laws that bear down against human conscience.
Moving the goalpost.gif
 
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A Christian minister is not running a business open to the public. The laws that came to bear upon photographers, bakers, and florists were all based on their being "public accommodations" rather than private organizations--which ministers represent.
My point is that the baker, photographer and florist were still ministering regardless of it being public or private and freedom of conscience was and is at stake. Whatever happened to the saying on many businesses walls saying, "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? ...another freedom taken away by creeping totalitarianism.
 
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dzheremi

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Sorry, but we're not to blame for that. The West has not been Christian, it has been a culture-gang that has merely used Jesus as its gang sign.

Hmm? I don't care about 'the West' being Christian (or the East, or the North, or the South). Directions don't accept or reject Christianity.

My point was that, because of the affect of the increasingly aggressive secularization of society on everyone in it (Christian and non-Christian), the influence of the claimed majority doesn't result in what most people here would consider to be a Christian society. And it doesn't do that because those of us here who would rightly say "In a Christian society, XYZ wouldn't have (ever) happened" are a part of the minority who still care about what would/should/ought to have represented to begin with, as opposed to the majority who may culturally identify as Christian because they went through first communion, or their parents made them go to Bible camp once, or Jesus is, like, a totally chill dude. That's what I meant by Christians becoming just another one of many groups: We're the minority within the majority for even having this discussion, rather than just parroting "America is Christian because look at the percentages" (as though those can never change, or as though they mean something even if they have no discernable effect upon society) and then calling it a day, or even worse, saying America is not a Christian country because look at all the different non-Christians in it (what Fr. Josiah Trenham of the Antiochian Orthodox Church refers to as the Diana Eck model, after the Harvard comparative religion professor, referring to the methodological blindspot found in modern religious studies research where every group is represented in the narrative build around survey data except for Christians who are the numerical majority, in order to make the case that the existence of all these other groups in itself means this or that about the religious character of the country, as though it somehow cannot be religiously heterogeneous and also have a dominant religious identity by self-identification, as many other countries already do without sociologists claiming this or that about their religious identities when the clear majority of the inhabitants of the country identify with a particular faith, e.g., Lebanon, UAE, Russia, etc).

If America had ever been Christian, there would not have been slavery, there would not have been genocide against native Americans, there would not have been the crushing of human laberors for profit, there would never have been Jim Crow--all of them preached as "righteous" and biblical from the very pulpits of "Christian" congregations.

No, that wasn't Christian, that was just Jesus used as a gang-sign by a cultural gang that ran roughshod over everyone else.

I did not grow up in a world of "Christian culture." I grew up in a world where a white man could kill me with zero repercussions, or rape my mother with zero repercussions, where the police would even join in or stand by and watch.

Every person in these pictures called himself a Christian, but every one went to hell if he did not repent of being in this place on these nights:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zsK9qQYI...pp+and+Abram+Smith,+Marion,+Indiana,+1930.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C65J0V2XAAElsQ6.jpg

Yeah, I'm not really talking about any of this. I'm talking about how it is that we can have a country where the political sway of the majority is used against the practice of the faith of that same majority, due to the effect of a particularly Western type of secularization upon the entire society, which is a different (though probably related) discussion than whether or not people who claim to be Christian or that "they were raised in a Christian society" actually behave as their faith says they ought to.

Let me put it this way:

In Egypt, the majority is Muslim, so they put into place laws that reinforce the faith of the Muslims in a very public way, as a way of being responsive to the majority of the society, who publicly manifest their faith in what is nevertheless a religiously heterogeneous society, with neither the expectation nor reality of punishment for doing so.

In India, the majority is Hindu, so they put into place laws that reinforce the faith of the Hindus in a very public way, as a way of being responsive to the majority of the society, who publicly manifest their faith in what is nevertheless a religiously heterogeneous society, with neither the expectation nor reality of punishment for doing

In the USA/Canada/Australia/whatever western country, the majority is Christian, and so they put into place laws that reinforce the separation of the expression of the faith of the majority from the society, in the name of being open to absolutely everyone and every religious idea they may have (but to some more than others, a la Animal Farm: Halal Edition...I guess the pigs are changed to chickens in that one or something), because to do otherwise would not be freedom-loving enough, or would be racist, or would or wouldn't be this or that.

See, it's different outcomes and seemingly different motivations, and yes somewhat different behaviors, but not in the sense of "these people aren't/have never really been truly XYZ."

Even when I agree with you, as I do here, to break it down to the level of behaviors that we can classify as either in keeping with Christianity or not (which we can do, but this particular subforum is probably not the best venue for it) feels a bit like a slightly more sophisticated version of the No True Scotsman fallacy. And besides, I wouldn't argue about the West being Christian anyway. I'm a westerner by birth, but I belong to an Eastern church which has had very little to do with western Christianity in the last 1600 years or so, so I don't feel qualified to say who is behaving better, as it's not like I'm going to be completely objective here. :)
 
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TLK Valentine

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The debatable part is that each person as a christian ministers in their calling. So you have a track record of photographers, bakers and florists, all ministers, forced against their conscience to capitulate or be fined. Is that the kind of freedom you want here in America?

If it compels the bakers and florists to do business with the coloreds, the Jews, the Muslims, and other people that their "conscience" would otherwise forbid... then yes.
 
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RDKirk

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My point is that the baker, photographer and florist were still ministering regardless of it being public or private and freedom of conscience was and is at stake. Whatever happened to the saying on many businesses walls saying, "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? ...another freedom taken away by creeping totalitarianism.

No, they weren't. Hobby Lobby can claim that--they at least run Christian music over their loudspeakers and make a point of closing on Sundays. But most of these businesses carry on a secular appearance and do business in a secular manner. They don't get religious until they run into their own pet prejudice.

I am a portrait photographer. A few years ago, I was discussing this issue in my men's bible study with another man who is also a photographer and yet a third who is a barber.

We all run businesses in which our Christianity is front-and-center. The barber and I even incorporate our faith into the names of our businesses. We display our Christianity, we play Christian music in our venues, we talk about our Christianity. Anyone doing business with us knows we are Christians.

So we discussed this and agreed that by running our businesses openly as Christian businesses, with people doing business with us knowing up front that he's going to hear the name of Jesus as a regular part of every transaction, if they still want to do business with us, then the Holy Spirit is working that situation for someone to hear about Jesus.

And we're going to be there for Him.
 
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hedrick

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Is 1 Cor 5:9-10 relevant here?

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons— not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since you would then need to go out of the world.
 
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dzheremi

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No, they weren't. Hobby Lobby can claim that--they at least run Christian music over their loudspeakers and make a point of closing on Sundays. But most of these businesses carry on a secular appearance and do business in a secular manner. They don't get religious until they run into their own pet prejudice.

I am a portrait photographer. A few years ago, I was discussing this issue in my men's bible study with another man who is also a photographer and yet a third who is a barber.

We all run businesses in which our Christianity is front-and-center. The barber and I even incorporate our faith into the names of our businesses. We display our Christianity, we play Christian music in our venues, we talk about our Christianity. Anyone doing business with us knows we are Christians.

So we discussed this and agreed that by running our businesses openly as Christian businesses, with people doing business with us knowing up front that he's going to hear the name of Jesus as a regular part of every transaction, if they still want to do business with us, then the Holy Spirit is working that situation for someone to hear about Jesus.

And we're going to be there for Him.

Hats off to you both, sirs. This is how it is done in other countries where it is necessary for various reasons (i.e., different dietary restrictions/fasting periods) to distinguish a Christian-run business from a Muslim-run one:

rs55913_dscn0643.jpg

Christian-run butcher shop, Ethiopia

A lot of people don't seem to believe that you can be a business that isn't necessarily faith-themed (i.e., isn't selling a faith-related item) and show your faith; I guess they don't want to put people off/miss out on all that secular business that would be offended by overt displays of religion? I don't get it, because where I used to live in Albuquerque, NM, there were two Middle Eastern restaurants in my neighborhood -- one run by Jordanian and Iraqi Christians who put crosses in the window facing the street (so anyone even just walking by would know what the business was about, faith-wise) and a Holy Bible and a cross on top of the refrigeration case next to the ordering/paying counter displaying the day's freshly made kibbeh, tabbouli, etc. I can't remember the name of that restaurant, but the other one was a Muslim-run place I think called Yasmine's that I accidentally went into one day because it was closer to my apartment than the Christian-run place, and I wasn't aware that it was Muslim (Yasmine isn't a particularly sectarian name in Arabic, as far as I am aware). I'm not against patronizing Muslim businesses, I would have just rather given my money to the overtly Christian business, if I had been able to that day. I wasn't aware that Yasmine's was Muslim until the owner came out to chat with a very conservative Muslim guy who came there with his wife and they needed to know that the meat was halal or of course they couldn't eat there.

What I noticed from comparing the Christian restaurant to the Muslim one is that, even though I had gone in to both during comparable times of day, it seemed like nobody was eating at Yasmine's (it was me, the Muslim couple, and like 3 other people...granted it wasn't a very big place to begin with, but still), whereas everybody -- Christian and Muslim alike -- ate at the Christian-run restaurant. One of the things is that Yasmine's was very plain, with little to no decoration, whereas the Christian-restaurant had a TV playing Lebanese satelite TV (old performances of Fairuz, Wadih El Safi, Nasri Shamseddine, etc. from the Lebanese Broadcasting Co. archives, 1950s-1960s; super cool!), and was decorated in a "Middle Eastern" theme (pyramids, camels, palm trees, etc.), so maybe it was more attractive. But all I know is that the servers and cooks were all Christians (as was the owner, a Jordanian guy named Osama -- my Egyptian friend: "Eeeeesh...we would never name ourselves like that; the Jordanians don't care", i.e., they don't give themselves specifically Christian names, I guess), and it was a trip watching a waiter take the order of a Muslim with a long beard, the Muslim cap, and the "prayer spot" (spot on the forehead from a lifetime of prostrations), while the waiter's cross necklace dangled down in full view of everyone as he bent over to hear them better while writing down what they wanted. The Muslims did not get up and leave or anything (it helps that the food was delicious; best tabbouli in the city, as far as I'm concerned), and the place was always either packed or nearly packed. And when we came in there a few times with Fr. Marcus on special occasions...oooof...forget about it...he was just a regular parish priest, but it was like the Pope himself had shown up! The cook, waiters, and some of the patrons (Christian ones, I'm assuming) would stop what they were doing, rush to the door when they saw him enter, embrace him, kiss the cross (Coptic priests carry hand crosses for blessings at all times), kiss his hand, tell him what a blessing it is to have him there, etc. It was like traveling with a rock star, if rock stars were humble about it. :D

This was all in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where the Coptic population numbered no greater than 40 people when I was there, but obviously there was a larger Middle Eastern population that included people from other churches and non-Christians, and everyone got along splendidly (usually...there was the one time that a Palestinian Muslim banned Copts from coming into his grocery store/restaurant anymore after years of welcoming them, because he blamed them for the end of Muslim Brotherhood rule in Egypt, which is a common Salafist propaganda tactic...no loss to us, then; I hope his business tanks). And again, no Muslim that I saw ever left in disgust at the open displays of Christianity, nor were any ever turned away for any reason. Sometimes it really can pay to be up front about your faith. People are often more open and accepting than you might think.
 
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