Questioning what I believe

Homosexuality is a sin because it runs counter to God's inbuilt design between male and female. No other of God's creatures are as confused and mixed up as man with his sin nature.
The thing is, God receives any who repent of their rejection of His ways and punishes those who are insistent in their self justification...after all, it is His ball, His field and we are to play by His rules...He made man whole, we rebelled and still do.

God's view and stated judgment of all the sins of mankind everywhere, including all kinds of greed, covetousness, and sexual deviation/perversion,
is correct.
He cares not one iota about "surrounding culture", and is not changed by it.

May I ask - is your problem with the Bible overall or the specific issues you mention?

quintessentialramble said:

I had a conversation with a friend the other night, basically she told me why she left church and stopped believing, how she had all the right answers but didn't actually believe any of it (she had grown up Catholic tho), and how now she believes every religion is true for each person individually, and only believes Jesus existed as a historical, non-deistic man; and I knew if I was being biblical about things, I should have presented the Gospel, or at least defended why the Bible is true. I wish I could say it was because she was working and we were in public and I didn't want to raise a scene; but if I'm being honest even in private I probably wouldn't have defended it; it just made me realize that I'm still a). learning a lot of things and b). I've always had some mixed feelings about the Bible; in particular when it comes to homosexuality. I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people. I think it would be very rare that a person says they are trying to be gay. I try to think how Jesus would handle something like this; and I don't think it would be through rebuke. I've also often wondered how we came to terms with casting out homosexuals, when in fact, in original Greek, and in the time period, the word didn't exist. The word that is used is arsenokotai, simply meaning male beds; typically used when referring to male prostitution; some reference the verse about men defiling the marriage bed by chasing after other men; but 2 things here; there is the possibility that the defiling came from the adultery/cheating itself, or because often times these acts were orgy sex parties; so there's no concrete point that homosexuality in and of itself is a sin. So why was this act deemed a sin?
If we look at when the Bible was translated into English..1526 by William Tyndale, we discover that around this time, King Henry VIII is also issuing death warrants to many people for many reasons; to William Tyndale and Martin Luther for their protest against the Catholic church, as well as many death warrants for the act of homosexuality. But I see something very peculiar--in 1395, John Rykener was arrested for being a transvestite prostitute. Prior to this, King Edward the 11 was killed, and was regarded and remembered for his homosexual relationship with a man named Gaveston. So there is an issue here that was very likely a huge subculture of homosexuality within England just prior to Bible being translated. The act of prostitution is essentially a means, albeit a sinful means, of gaining money. These acts were often public and lewd. So it would make sense, that the first English translation of the Bible, would spew forth anti-homosexual translations of a term that seems to have only rejected premarital sex, prostitution, and possibly public indecency, but never the lone act of being a homosexual; but rather, the Bible was translated with anti-homosexual jargon due to a predisposition of negative views of the surrounding culture.

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The following passage from the New Testament is a simple and straight forward translation. The meaning is clear and I don't think anyone would misunderstand what the apostle is saying.

Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

quintessentialramble said:

I've always had some mixed feelings about the Bible; in particular when it comes to homosexuality. I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people.

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Why is this particular sin the one that people always say that about?

There are all sorts of sins that (some) people feel an urge to commit...but I rarely hear any commentator saying that he just doesn't understand how God could be judgmental towards them--shoplifting, anger, or cursing, for example. The sinners in those cases also struggle and are sorely tempted, after all.

quintessentialramble said:

The problem with your argument is that it's the same argument for why Christians don't promote slavery--the answer is because slavery was the culture then, not now. By this argument, you would also have to allow slavery to be biblical. So either the argument must be that our interpretations can, and have been, faulty, or you must say that slavery is not a sin.

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Sorry, no. The first sentence assumes things not in evidence. True followers of Jesus understand the slavery in the Bible as a directed and controlled way at the time to help others who would otherwise starve to death. (like after the civil war so many did also).

THe belief and the lives of true followers of Jesus is not influenced by culture at all, then or now.

Yes, I agree, the interpretations are not only faulty, but entirely not permitted as well as wrong.

No where does God say that slavery(within the guidelines/ instructions of TORAH) is a sin.
(what was and is practiced in the United States and other countries TODAY and for the last 200 years plus IS SIN, even that which is not called slavery)

Homosexuality gets a lot of attention because it's deeply unnatural; that is not what any of those body parts are clearly designed for.

Many, many people experience sexual feelings towards their own sex. It happens. But God has asked us not to act on it.

God has also asked us to call souls to repentance, to love folks lost in sin, or who are confused, and to not align ourselves with a culture that celebrates sin.

quintessentialramble said:

I had a conversation with a friend the other night, basically she told me why she left church and stopped believing, how she had all the right answers but didn't actually believe any of it (she had grown up Catholic tho), and how now she believes every religion is true for each person individually, and only believes Jesus existed as a historical, non-deistic man; and I knew if I was being biblical about things, I should have presented the Gospel, or at least defended why the Bible is true. I wish I could say it was because she was working and we were in public and I didn't want to raise a scene; but if I'm being honest even in private I probably wouldn't have defended it; it just made me realize that I'm still a). learning a lot of things and b). I've always had some mixed feelings about the Bible; in particular when it comes to homosexuality. I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people. I think it would be very rare that a person says they are trying to be gay. I try to think how Jesus would handle something like this; and I don't think it would be through rebuke. I've also often wondered how we came to terms with casting out homosexuals, when in fact, in original Greek, and in the time period, the word didn't exist. The word that is used is arsenokotai, simply meaning male beds; typically used when referring to male prostitution; some reference the verse about men defiling the marriage bed by chasing after other men; but 2 things here; there is the possibility that the defiling came from the adultery/cheating itself, or because often times these acts were orgy sex parties; so there's no concrete point that homosexuality in and of itself is a sin. So why was this act deemed a sin?
If we look at when the Bible was translated into English..1526 by William Tyndale, we discover that around this time, King Henry VIII is also issuing death warrants to many people for many reasons; to William Tyndale and Martin Luther for their protest against the Catholic church, as well as many death warrants for the act of homosexuality. But I see something very peculiar--in 1395, John Rykener was arrested for being a transvestite prostitute. Prior to this, King Edward the 11 was killed, and was regarded and remembered for his homosexual relationship with a man named Gaveston. So there is an issue here that was very likely a huge subculture of homosexuality within England just prior to Bible being translated. The act of prostitution is essentially a means, albeit a sinful means, of gaining money. These acts were often public and lewd. So it would make sense, that the first English translation of the Bible, would spew forth anti-homosexual translations of a term that seems to have only rejected premarital sex, prostitution, and possibly public indecency, but never the lone act of being a homosexual; but rather, the Bible was translated with anti-homosexual jargon due to a predisposition of negative views of the surrounding culture.

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Am not a historian or even that knowledgeable in biblical historical interpretations. All I have is the Holy spirit who lives in me to guide me into ALL truth.
Studying the story of creation in Genesis, God made them male and female;
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭
This was the first marriage union in the Bible and it was between Man, woman and God. It came first to establish a pattern for the church just as Christ is the groom and we are His bride. God defines sexuality in Genesis and homosexuality is not one of them.

Following the rest of scripture, homosexuality is clearly condemned with the climax being in Romans 1.
People who wrestle with homosexual temptations and desires have the same choice: to sin with it, or to be chaste and to seek to overcome and to move into something more God-appointed. It's not the worst of sins but it's a result of the fall. Seeking to misinterpret or argue against interpretations will not get us to the truth. The truth comes from God Himself and He reveals it to those who seek.

May you seek from the source Himself and obey that truth.
Shalom

Gracia Singh said:

Homosexuality gets a lot of attention because it's deeply unnatural; that is not what any of those body parts are clearly designed for. .

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IMHO, it owes more to the fact that there are organized and vocal proponents of those acts.

By contrast, there is not much of a shoplifters lobby, complete with publications, clubs, and "theft pride" parades. (!)

I have seen this issue spun every which way in order to justify a behavior that the Bible clearly teaches is a sin along with other sexual sins--fornication, adultery, prostitution, etc. The following Bible verse makes it very clear that practicing homosexuality is a sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11--Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

quintessentialramble said:

I've always had some mixed feelings about the Bible; in particular when it comes to homosexuality. I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people. I think it would be very rare that a person says they are trying to be gay.

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You could say this about temptation to commit any sin. The truth is that every person who has every been born since the Fall has struggled with temptation. Even Jesus Christ Himself was tempted in every way that we are, yet He never sinned. We are not all tempted by the same sins, but why would you make allowance for certain sins?

Excusing sin doesn't help anyone, least of all the one who is caught up in sin. As Christians, we need to help one another to resist temptation, not justify our sins through twisting God's Word. Paul made it clear that anyone practicing acts that God has deemed sinful will not enter the kingdom of God. I believe that Paul is addressing a lifestyle of sin.

I challenge you to reconsider your conclusions about this sin. If you are tempted in this area, I pray that you will have God's grace to resist temptation. The following verses give us the key to having victory over temptation.

Galatians 5:16-25--I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance — as I told you before — that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

quintessentialramble said:

The issue is not in what Paul said, the issue is in the translation from the Greek in 1526 when it was first introduced.

And, we must understand the full context of the passage
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

So we have a couple issues here. For one, the sin that originally caused all of this passage was worshipping a false god. Secondly, why did God give them over to their lusts? Thirdly, why isn't homosexuality mentioned in verse 30? In fact, this verse seems to indicate that the sin is about the fidelity of marriage, not the orientation of the individual. Fourthly, the sin seems to be more in the dismissal of committment to spouses rather than the act of homosexuality. Fifthly, the sin seems to be more in the extremeness of the lewd and shameful acts; so still there is no evidence that just the part of being a homosexual is sin.

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I understand where you are coming from.

The sin that caused mankind to be given over to passions and lust was not worshiping a false god. The reason for the judgement of God on mankind was because they rejected their creator and God turned them over to degrading passions.

We don't know why God gave them over to degrading sexual passions but that He did.

Homosexuality is mentioned in this chapter.

'In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.'

You can't argue with that verse as the translation is a simple translation, the meaning is clear.

Why do people fixate on homosexuality when there are other sexual sins including the very common fornication.

Judgement is not restricted to sexual sins either, judgement covers all sin, all immorality.

No one can stand before God without Jesus, all are sinful.

I think it is good and necessary to question one's belief. It is the only way for it to be purified and for the individual to grow spiritually.

quintessentialramble said:

I think perhaps it would be specific to this issue; however I would say I am negatively influenced/put off by what I believe to be false theology of current Christians which tends to cause doubts, confusion, and perhaps even unbelief, but that is more of a personal, theological, and behavioral issue than a biblical issue.

As for those who defend the biblical doctrine of anti-homosexuality: I would appreciate if you used biblical verses, with sound translation from the Greek from for your defense; otherwise this would merely be opinion or else I would have to maintain the stance that there was error and preconceived ideologies when the Bible was translated to English.

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I did a study of that and wrote an article on the subject. see this link

Is the status of homosexuality actually your only problem? If so, see the Liberal forum where we can talk about it, and point out somethings about Rom 1 that you might not have noticed. This forum doesn’t allow that discussion. But I'm worried that homosexuality is actually a digression.

Christians follow Jesus. While the Bible is how we learn about him, ultimately your faith should be in him not it. Our faith isn't even in the right answers, whether Catholic or Protestant. (I'm afraid that Christians often don't have as many right answers as they think.) But being a Christian is about finding God present in Christ in worship, in our love for and service to others, and in prayer and other devotions.

I don't know your friend, so I don't know what went wrong. But in a lot of cases I think people put their trust in the right theology or the authority of the Bible, and when they find that no theology is perfect and there are problems with the Bible (or how their tradition understands the Bible), they're disillusioned.

quintessentialramble said:

when it comes to homosexuality. I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people.

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We all were born in sin, and we all have had problems in our personality because of not being in God's all-loving love. One major trouble is how we can make love idols of certain people we favor above others, but Jesus warns us >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, God's love has us being all-loving and not merely favoring people we prefer to use for the pleasure we want.

Also, in Jesus love we become more and more generously forgiving, in kind and tenderly caring love for ones whom we are forgiving >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, I think we can see we all were born away from this way of loving. And all of us have had our preferences for how we use others to get the pleasure we treasure.

And if you know what Jesus has said, you know He warns about how our hearts will be where our treasure is. Anyone is wrong to have a treasure pleasure which keeps our attention away from Jesus and how He has us loving any and all people.

And we see how wrong people can miss out on having Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) because they are troubled about not getting the pleasure they treasure and the social acceptance they value more than being pleasing to God. You would know Jesus says to rejoice when ones speak evil of us falsely for His name's sake; but many people seeking their own way are upset about how others criticize them, instead of rejoicing in Jesus and trusting how our Lord Jesus makes sure we always have all the good which God desires to share with us His children.

Even on the cross, Jesus was doing the best > loving > not only getting the best, but giving God's best of loving.

So, if any of us is worried and troubled about getting our own preferences and pleasures and security and acceptance, I am wrong, and this partly because God's love does not have me only or mainly using any person for what I want and what I might dictate. And loving any and all people is so more and better than all I have even wished for my own self > such loving has me in personal sharing with God and all others who are genuinely caring and sharing people.

quintessentialramble said:

I think it would be very rare that a person says they are trying to be gay.

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None of us tried to be born in sin. None of us consciously and knowingly decided to have the sinful nature to be selfishly loving people who pick and choose who is worth loving and whom we love because that person gives us the pleasures and acceptance which we love.

We all have been wrong; we all need how Jesus changes us so we do what He has us doing with "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

And in case you know people who seem honorable and kind and caring, yet they do not have rest for their souls, this can mean they are fooling themselves into thinking what they are doing is good and right. Also, ones can act very nice in public, so they can charm you into supposing their evil deeds must be ok since they are treating you so nice.

One guy even argued how certain wrong people must be great because they took the guy out to dinner! And that guy had a major food abuse problem. So, such is a very clever strategy > give a foolish person what he or she wants, and you can bribe him or her to approve of your wrong stuff.

quintessentialramble said:

some reference the verse about men defiling the marriage bed by chasing after other men; but 2 things here; there is the possibility that the defiling came from the adultery/cheating itself, or because often times these acts were orgy sex parties; so there's no concrete point that homosexuality in and of itself is a sin. So why was this act deemed a sin?

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Have you read and fed on Romans 1:18-32?

A problem here was how they were not "thankful". And because they put creature pleasures above God, and worshiped the creature more than God > God let them go so their sinful and selfish pleasure drives could take them over. So, what they got into was not only a sin, but a consequence with its misery . . . a punishment. People who prefer pleasure more than God can in reality be suffering in a living punishment, in themselves. We can be our own worst enemies, then, and our own punishment for our selfish stuff.

And, of course, we can blame others, and say they hate us . . . like how children can say their parents hate them because their parents stay with giving the children what is best for them.

quintessentialramble said:

Prior to this, King Edward the 11 was killed, and was regarded and remembered for his homosexual relationship with a man named Gaveston.

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So, is this where your attention belongs?

God is worthy of our attention. We are called to all the time be attentive to however our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us with His own peace in our "hearts" >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, are people loving you by helping your attention to stay with how Jesus is ruling you in your heart? Or, are people keeping your attention elsewhere??

God is trusting us to help one another's attention to submit to how Jesus in us cares for us in His peace. And be attentive to ministering and praying for one another to grow in how Jesus is and how Jesus has us loving any and all people > "first of all" > 1 Timothy 2:1-4 < having hope in love's prayer > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7) > knowing how God is able to change all of us out of our personality troubles which we were born with, so we become like Jesus instead

quintessentialramble said:

...I do not deny the Bible (at least the English translation) says it is sin; but I also don't understand why God would act so condescendingly towards a sin that is legitimately a struggle for the vast majority of those people. I think it would be very rare that a person says they are trying to be gay. I try to think how Jesus would handle something like this; and I don't think it would be through rebuke. ...

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I think Bible is clearly against the homosexual act. However, I understand it can be difficult situation for those people who want it. But there are also other difficult situations. For example, it can be really difficult for someone not to have sex with his neighbor’s wife. If wouldn’t be prostitution, should it be accepted? Someone can have great urge to rob a bank. If it is not paid job, should we accept it? There can be lot of desires that are not good and I think that is where it is tested do we love more truth and good, or do we love more pleasure and self than anything else.

I think homosexual act is not accepted because there is good reason for it. I believe all God’s commandments and rules are good and protects people from many harms and that is why I recommend them.