Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

DamianWarS · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Scripture completely furnishes believers so tongues are no longer needed.

I read it the first time. Do you no longer need the HS?

ICONO'CLAST · Apr 21, 2019

JLB777 said:
What language did Adam speak to the Lord in the garden?
JLB

Who taught Adam his vocabulary?

DamianWarS · Apr 21, 2019

Albion said:
I can accept that. However, it isn't the issue with most continuationists. They insist that everyone ought to believe that nothing ever changed in this area, from Apostolic times to the present, no matter what.

Bad doctrine shouldn't motivate us to ignore the issue.

Using the word cease tends to connect it with 1 Cor 13:8-10 something that you have left commented. The purpose of the "ceasing" is important and if we don't use these verses as it's scriptural proof then continuing to use the word "cease" becomes irresponsible and the language should be change to better reflect why these gifts are no longer in practice (that is of course if you reject the connection)

When you continue to use the language "cease" you are implicitly affirming the cessationist view of 1 Cor 13:8-10. So do you accept this? Can you defend it? If not why did the gifts fall out of practise?

PoppyB · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Just sayin'

1stcenturylady · Apr 21, 2019

Albion said:
It is true that the exact meaning that is assigned to the word makes a difference. However, I disagree about what cessationists teach.

To the best of my knowledge and experience, they simply say that there was a cessation. A resumption would not change that.

Few Christians would content that God cannot grant someone a gift when and if he chooses and that he has, from time to time, done so. That is freely acknowledged by the cessationists I know who represent a number of the major denominations.

And then we get continuationists who insist that they never did cease, that anyone claiming a cessation is faithless, and that tongues, for example, might have seemed to have ceased but actually they had not.

Or they argue that history is all wrong or wouldn't have paid any attention to this matter, as though the church was alive with tongues-speakers but no one recorded any mention of it. (!)

The thread of the Holy Spirit is found all throughout church history, even in the dry times. But I agree, the gifts of the Spirit were not seen in most of the church during that time. But now as we draw closer to the coming of the Lord, there has been a great awakening, and the end-times latter rain has fallen at last. And it will get even stronger as we press in even more to the presence of the Lord.

Dave L · Apr 21, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I read it the first time. Do you no longer need the HS?

You cannot understand scripture without the Holy Spirit revealing it...for the most part.

Dave L · Apr 21, 2019

JLB777 said:
Still pushing your scriptureless man made doctrine, I see.

JLB

You are the one without scripture to prove the gifts came in any other way besides an apostle's hands or the two outpourings.

Dale · Apr 21, 2019

DamianWarS said:
again the same can be spoken right back to you. Can we actually engage this topic rather than talk around it?

If you want scripture than 1 Cor 13:10 can only be biblically defended with an eschatological event, nothing else in scripture tells us of this special time when these gifts are withdrawn. In a sola-scripture vacuum, this is the only interpretation that can be supported.

What is a "sola-scripture vacuum"? The term makes no sense.

JLB777 · Apr 21, 2019

topher694 said:
LOL, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing.

Repeating something incessantly doesn't make it true.

Especially when it’s ones opinion with no scriptures to support his unbiblical claim.

JLB

JLB777 · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
You are the one without scripture to prove the gifts came in any other way besides an apostle's hands or the two outpourings.

Sorry, but it’s is your claim that Apostles have ceased.

It is your claim that the baptism with the Holy Spirit has ceased, all with no such scriptures.

JLB

JLB777 · Apr 21, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Who taught Adam his vocabulary?

What was his language?

What language did Adam speak?

You answer mine question, as I asked you.

Dale · Apr 21, 2019

BCsenior said:
First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …

“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.

At some point, the church claimed the “perfect” meant the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
● Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”
● Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”
● Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.
● Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.

PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change
“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)
God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?
“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days
“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)
Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4)

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.

I'm not exactly a cessationist but I can't follow your reasoning here. You are promoting speaking in tongues as it occurs in Pentecostal/Assembly of God or charismatic churches. I have been in Pentecostal churches on several occasions and I haven't seen anything that impresses me.

On one visit to a Pentecostal church, a man came to the front to be blessed, and spoke in a "tongue." The congregation rose. The man then passed out and was lowered to the floor. Men (Deacons? Ushers?) are placed behind those who come forward to facilitate this passing out. I'm told that people fainting in church, or fainting while speaking in tongues is called being "slain in the Spirit." Where does the Bible say anything about being "slain the Spirit"? I don't see that term in the NT, or any mention of people passing out in church or during prayer.

Dale · Apr 21, 2019

BCsenior said:
First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …

“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.

At some point, the church claimed the “perfect” meant the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
● Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”
● Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”
● Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.
● Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.

PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change
“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)
God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?
“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days
“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)
Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4)

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.

As a teenager, on reading the New Testament, I found speaking in tongues to be an interesting subject. I was fascinated to know what this meant and how it applies to us today.

I had a college roommate who was a member of the Church of Christ, and his church did not speak in tongues but he also found the description of it in the NT to be interesting. He had a girl friend, whose parents were Pentecostals, so both of her parents claimed to speak in tongues. The girl friend, having seen Pentecostalism up close all her life, absolutely did not believe that speaking in tongues was a good thing. Having seen it all her life, she was very firm in her conviction that it was a fraud or a result of self-delusion. In short, she had never seen any good come from speaking in tongues.

Whether or not the NT clearly tells us that tongues as practiced in the first century will cease, in our era, claims that people are speaking in tongues don't seem to work out.

JLB777 · Apr 21, 2019

Dale said:
I'm not exactly a cessationist but I can't follow your reasoning here. You are promoting speaking in tongues as it occurs in Pentecostal/Assembly of God or charismatic churches. I have been in Pentecostal churches on several occasions and I haven't seen anything that impresses me.

On one visit to a Pentecostal church, a man came to the front to be blessed, and spoke in a "tongue." The congregation rose. The man then passed out and was lowered to the floor. Men (Deacons? Ushers?) are placed behind those who come forward to facilitate this passing out. I'm told that people fainting in church, or fainting while speaking in tongues is called being "slain in the Spirit." Where does the Bible say anything about being "slain the Spirit"? I don't see that term in the NT, or any mention of people passing out in church or during prayer.

The primary use of your spiritual language is prayer, which is done by you alone before God.

Speaking in tongues with an interpretation is for the Church assembly, as prophecy is.

Praying in tongues is your spirit praying, in which you are edified or built up on your most holy faith.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 1 Corinthians 14:14-15

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 20-21

Good things come from a healthy prayer life.

JLB

Justified112 · Apr 21, 2019

JLB777 said:
What do we base our doctrine on, If not the Bible?

Man’s opinion, based on his own experience or lack of it?

JLB

What I am saying is that you cannot form doctrine on the narratives of scripture. We base doctrines on the didactic material, the doctrinal materials like what is found in the epistles, the teachings of Jesus, the Psalms, etc. We do not take an experience someone had in the Bible and try to normalize that for the Christian experience.

Kenny'sID · Apr 21, 2019

The truth of the matter is simple...Prove it.

Isn't the test of a prophet determined by if what he claims comes to pass or not?

Raising the dead can easily be proven.
Healing can be easily proven.
Tongues? Just get an interpreter.

But as it "always" goes, no one can prove they have done, or that those things can be done. Then the cop outs start with the deception, anyone who expects proof is a bad person..how convenient is that? I won't even get into that ridiculous argument in this post, as it's a waste of time and just confuses the issue, (the actual intention) but you may call me out on it if you like.

Then next will come the part where "We all have different gifts" and guess what, theirs or anyone they know of with gifts just "happen" to be gifts that cannot be proven.

Is common sense starting to kick in for any of you now?

The unprovable gifts, the only ones it seems anyone claims they can actually can do are for example:

A physical ailment that cannot be proven existent by doctors.
Speaking in the type of tongues that just so happens to to be the type that only Angels/God can understand.
And more...please feel free to add to either of the lists of provable/non provable..

We had a brave poster that claimed healing (through the power of God), who posted a few times he had healed someone over the phone. Some of us doubted him to the point he posted a thread that he has done a healing and that if he did not at least get verification from the person he healed (through the power of Christ) that they were indeed healed, he would not return to the thread, he did not. Bold Prediction: Over-the-phone ministered healing to a specific member of this community!

So in the end common sense tell me those who claim any miracle are not being truthful, simply because they have chosen to only do miracles that cannot be proven, something that is entirely to convenient to just be chance, or they have no proof for the ones that can be proven.

Why people like for others to believe these miracles are done, I'll not get into in this post, but there are several reasons, and no surprise, they mostly are due to selfishness.

I don't claim the miracles have ceased or not, I simply have never seen any. I have always been open to proof and would be happy to work something out right here where we can get proof to your provable miracles or those of anyone you know, but I guarantee you...no one, not one person, will step up and want to do that, and for good reason.

Blade · Apr 21, 2019

"but when that which is perfect is come". "As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground". "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him." "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

We read many are moved by what they hear see and feel not faith. Also many are saying things that are not in the word of God. The sweet sweet Holy Spirit its HIS gifts not mans. God told you ..if you want the Holy Spirit then ask Him and He will give it. You dont seem to debate John 3:16 but this one.. where even Jesus asked "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper,"

The 12/120 were saved after Jesus went up. Were told to wait..for the Holy Spirit would not come till Jesus left. And you SHALL receive power after the Holy Spirit comes on you. You know that word SHALL right? These signs SHALL follow them that believe. Now are you one of them or not? For these signs as GOD said not Baptist not Cath not Pent, or word of Faith but GOD said shall follow.. you know shall cast out devils.. shall speak with new tongues shall take up serpents and drink any deadly thing it SHALL not hurt them and they SHALL lay hands on the sick and they SHALL recover.

Your not moved by GODS word but what you see hear and feel. What happen to so and so and what this or that preacher said. You dont just speak HIS word then stand. Do you KNOW Him? You think HE just spoke things in jest or as a joke? You think HE talks thinks like man? He means every word ever letter. We will answer for every single word we have spoken. Live and death is in the tongue.

As long as you doubt you have nothing to hope for. And you force God to do what you believe. If you doubt let not that man/woman think they will get anything from God. How can you miss any of this.. the soldier... you just speak the word... Jesus.. I have not found such great faith not in all Israel. <---how can you miss that? Its FAITH! You want to see have GOD move in your life like NEVER before?

Then you walk by FAITH! Not by ANYTHING I say or any other man/woman. You stand on HIS word! What He said. He is the ONLY ONE that does not lie. But you dont.. your moved by how you feel what you see and hear. I was asked if I wanted the holy Spirit I said yes.. they prayed for me.. then stopped.. said you got it. I felt nothing.. no one was speaking in tongues.. no one said a word. Just said you got it! See thats what the WORD says. If you ASK the Father HE will give it. They believed what God said not some man saying ..ooh its DEAD its gone or its of the devil. So I got up.. went to sit down..

Holy JESUS..when He said you shall receive POWER! For ME live with out the sweet sweet Holy Spirit..would be so empty. That burning fire that hunger that joy that wow never goes away... its ALWAYS HERE! When I speak in tongues.. or the saying for me is PRAYING in the spirit..its between me and Him... and the fire that joy HOLY JESUS gets greater and greater.. ALL YOU WANT IS MORE OF HIM! It ALWAYS goes to HIM points to Him.

He gave you His words (song playing right now "its written in your word") His word.. that bible now.. YOU must alone make that choice to believe HIM or man. See you can pray ask seek Him for min hours days weeks if you dont understand something and HE will show you tell you. But you wont pray the price to wait on Him and let Him strengthen you. I am no one.. I sin more then most. I dont worry about losing my salvation or once saved always saved. Dont worry about GIFTS are the for today or dead. My belief didnt come from me watching listening to some man.

See JESUS? is more real then my wife or my two boys that are my world..my world. JESUS is real. He loves you.... HE really CRIES so much because No one knows how much He loves you. Stop debating start walking by faith.. just take HIM not what so and so says.. at HIS word. Sin is more out in the open then ever.. and these GIFTS are all over the world working. But as long as YOU dont believe...you will NOT see it. Yours His your saved..but.. this part goes to those that believe... its ALWAYS FAITH with God..

And STOP making TONGUES the talking point. Its only of the whole. Its so you can talk to the Father and no one else can understand. Ask Him about it. Or stick to following those MAN that think like believe like you.

DamianWarS · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
You cannot understand scripture without the Holy Spirit revealing it...for the most part.

is that the only role of the HS?

topher694 · Apr 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
The truth of the matter is simple...Prove it.

Isn't the test of a prophet determined by if what he claims comes to pass or not?

Raising the dead can easily be proven.
Healing can be easily proven.
Tongues? Just get an interpreter.

But as it "always" goes, no one can prove they have done, or that those things can be done. Then the cop outs start with the deception, anyone who expects proof is a bad person..how convenient is that? I won't even get into that ridiculous argument in this post, as it's a waste of time and just confuses the issue, (the actual intention) but you may call me out on it if you like.

Then next will come the part where "We all have different gifts" and guess what, theirs or anyone they know of with gifts just "happen" to be gifts that cannot be proven.

Is common sense starting to kick in for any of you now?

The unprovable gifts, the only ones it seems anyone claims they can actually can do are for example:

A physical ailment that cannot be proven existent by doctors.
Speaking in the type of tongues that just so happens to to be the type that only Angels/God can understand.
And more...please feel free to add to either of the lists of provable/non provable..

We had a brave poster that claimed healing (through the power of God), who posted a few times he had healed someone over the phone. Some of us doubted him to the point he posted a thread that he has done a healing and that if he did not at least get verification from the person he healed (through the power of Christ) tat they were indeed healed, he would not return to the thread.

So in the end common sense tell me those who claim any miracle are not being truthful, simply because they have chosen to only do miracles that cannot be proven, something that is entirely to convenient to just be chance, or they have no proof for the ones that can be proven.

Why people like for others to believe these miracles are done, I'll not get into in this post, but there are several reasons, and no surprise, they mostly are due to selfishness.

I don't claim the miracles have ceased or not, I simply have never seen any. I have always been open to proof and would be happy to work something out right here where we can get proof to your provable miracles or those of anyone you know, but I guarantee you...no one, not one person, will step up and want to do that, and for good reason.

This is circular ridiculousness. You ask where is the proof, then people provide it, but it is never good enough for you and never will be. They get frustrated with hearing the same demands over and over and over, being called names, delusional, emotional or whatever and finally walk away from the abuse and then you call that victory. There is nothing Christ like in this behavior. It reminds me more of politics than Christianity.

Want an example?

My wife's uncle, and strong prayer partner of our ministey, died suddenly and unexpectedly. My wife and I, and others, prayed. Jesus rose him from the dead. Straight up.

A close friend of mine who was single got 11 prophetic words about getting married in 1 year. I was there for 9 of them. They were wildly specific. We teased him about it. But in the following year he met her and got married, in 2 weeks time. She had 12 prophetic words about marriage that aligned with his perfectly. Every single one of those words have come to pass. I would have to write pages and pages to describe all the amazing fulfillment for just that one situation.

And that's just the tip of the iceburg. But will it be good enough? No, never. First the excuses of how it wasn't really what I thought it was. Or, how I've embellished. Next demands of proof that would require me to violate their privacy as well as my own. Then, even if that happened, it would go right back to the excuses. Until we just moved on and you (erroneously) claimed victory.

But in the end my wife's uncle is alive. My friend is married, with a child and 2 books (both prophesied). And that seems way more in character for the Jesus I read about than accusations and demands. Additionally, good luck convincing either of them God doesn't still perform miracles or prophesy has ceased or that it was just in their heads.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
If tongues were to cease at the end of the world, why would Paul need to say tongues would cease? If they were to cease anyway? With everything else?

First, Paul doesn't say that the Gifts of the Spirt would cease at the end of the world. Only when "that which is perfect comes." He doesn't provide any further explanation. Which bring me to my second point, 1 Corinthians 13 is not about spiritual gifts, its about the superiority of love. That love is superior to even prophesy or tongues because even if you had those gifts and do not have love, they are worthless.

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