Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

Status
Not open for further replies.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think a more likely reason people believe in cessationism is they see that the gifts as described in the NT are no longer in operation. What Pentecostals/charismatics today call the gifts tongues, healing, and prophecy does not match the description of those gifts in scripture.
I kind of agree, but the basic (and sufficient) reason is that we are aware that they did decline and then cease following the Apostolic period in church history.

You made a good point about the Pentecostal experience of modern times not matching that of believers in an earlier time, but it isn't really critical to deciding the issue (of continuationism vs. cessationism).
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …

Well, what do you mean by "cessationism"? There is a spectrum of perspective among cessationists. Some hold to a hard-line view of cessationism and some a softer-line view. Hard cessationism might be less in favour generally among believers than other views on the "miraculous" gifts - I'd like to see concrete evidence this is so, actually - but I don't see soft cessationism "dying." Far from it. Among the believers I know, it is by far the most common point of view that is held concerning the gifts of prophecy, tongues and healing.

“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.

??? Nonsense. Context specifies meaning. The "that which is perfect" phrase is clearly related to the "prophesying in part" phrase mentioned immediately before it. A simple, straightforward reading of the passage makes it clear that Paul has prophesying in view in his remarks about the "perfect" and the "in part."

PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

What did Paul mean by "vanish away"? Did he mean that all knowledge of every kind would disappear? Verse 12 offers important clarification:

1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


The partial knowledge we possess in our temporal existence will be superseded by the fullness of knowledge and understanding we obtain in the life hereafter.

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”
Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”
Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.
Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

I don't see any of this as a difficulty for soft cessationism.

Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.

Proof, please. As it stands, what you've written here is pure speculation.

PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change

“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

And in what circumstances and to what end(s) did He act supernaturally in the world? Was God just a circus monkey, like modern Charismatics make of Him, performing for the excitement and entertainment of a human audience? I think not. Typically, His miracles in the OT confirmed the authority of those speaking for Him and acting in direct service to Him (ie prophets); they preserved His Chosen People; they confirmed His will and they punished the wicked. In the NT, miracles confirmed the divinity of Christ and the authority of the apostles to speak for God. Miracles also lent credence to the Gospel that the first disciples of Christ preached. I do not see God in the Bible performing miracles gratuitously, merely to enthuse and excite an audience of human devotees as modern Charismatics claim that He will do (and is actually somehow obliged to do). No, instead, I read in Scripture:

Luke 11:29
29 ..."This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign...

2 Corinthians 5:7
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.


And God does change. Not in His essential nature but certainly in the manner of His relating to humanity. The change from OT to NT in this regard is very dramatic. The curtain in the temple was torn in two, remember. It does not follow, then, that what miracles God might have enacted in the establishment of the Early Church He is bound by His unchanging nature to continue to enact today.

PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

Soft cessationism doesn't propose that God will never miraculously heal a person today. This view holds only that He is not obliged to do so every time a request for healing is made to Him by one His children. God may heal - or may He not. There is no divine guarantee of healing.

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days

“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

Peter spoke these words about himself and those with him who were, in their Spirit-empowered preaching of the Gospel, fulfilling the prophet Joel's prophecy. Peter said these words 2019 years ago. What then of "last days"? Many Bible commentators indicate that the phrase "last days" refers to the time of the Messiah, a general period of time following Christ's ascension, not the specific End of Days heralding the Final Judgment. There is certainly nothing in what Peter said of Joel's prophecy in Acts 2 that gives us good ground to think Joel was prophesying particularly of Christians living today. Peter's quotation of Joel, then, is not a legitimate proof-text for modern Charismania.

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)

Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues (Acts 2:4)

I don't see in what you've quoted here of Peter from Acts 2 any promise of tongues, or miraculous healings, or prophetic utterances. He says only that by repentance and trust in Christ those listening to him could receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Peter's own initial experience of the Spirit coming to dwell within him, did not involve nonsensical babbling in some "spirit language," or miraculous healing, or a prophecy like the apostle John's in the Revelation, but only the impulse to preach the Gospel to all who would listen, which he did, and which the Spirit made intelligible to all who heard it in their own native tongue. I don't see any ground here, then, supporting the modern Charismatic notions concerning the miraculous gifts.

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

Again, more sheer speculation.

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.

This is called Strawman arguing. It is a fallacious form of argument you should avoid.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, I have heard of the Dark Ages. What are you imagining that the term refers to?


Even if all of that were true, it does not mean that tongues did not cease at some time in the past. A "re-start," even a genuine one, would not contradict the fact that they ceased.

Yes, but that is not what Cessationists teach. They say they stopped and would never start again - John MacArthur. Funny though, the Greek word for cease in 1 Corinthians 13 means "pause." Exactly what happened.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Even if all of that were true, it does not mean that tongues did not cease at some time in the past. A "re-start," even a genuine one, would not contradict the fact that they ceased.
perhaps... but biblical justification for this ceasing (and this is implicated as soon as you use the word "cease") is irresponsible. I would use the language "fall out of practice" which doesn't use scripture as an excuse but rather puts the neglect to the church.
 
Upvote 0

Justified112

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2019
526
276
47
Midwest US
✟25,034.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Totally false.

Baptism comes after a person believes.


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17



  • they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

Why did Peter and John have to come down from Jerusalem and pray for these people to receive the Holy Spirit if they had gotten it when they believed?


  • They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

  • Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.





JLB
That was the experience of those people. You cannot take narratives out of the Bible and make doctrine out of them. You cannot take and event in Scripture and normalize it for all Christians for all time. You would put a lot of people under condemnation if you did that.

You would also create a ton of false doctrine as well.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I know you mock the truth, but it doesn’t change.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18


Everyone in the New Testament that was baptized with the Holy Spirit has evidence that was seen and heard.


Not just the Apostles.


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

Evidence that was seen or heard.


again


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Acts 10:44-46


Evidence that was seen or heard.


again



Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Again Simon saw the evidence.




JLB
You are reading Pentecostal dogma into these passages. And they do not mean what you assume they mean. You need to study for yourself and pray that God will give you understanding.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"When the Spirit of the Lord moves within my heart I will dance as David danced" etc.

Belonging to God should not be boring we should expect a 'buzz' provided it isn't man-made. We should enjoy worship, we should enjoy being in his presence. We should enjoy Him and let our hair down. Too many Christians are afraid to do that for fear of looking ridiculous.

Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets. As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart. 2 Samuel 6:14-16

I expect David was experiencing a great 'buzz' as he danced before the Lord with all his might but there are too many like Michal in the churches who don't like any show of exuberant worship. I'm glad I'm not one of them. I love to sing and dance as I worship God and I learned that it was ok to do so when I belonged to the Church of England with an enlightened born again, Spirit filled vicar.

Have you ever read, 'When the Spirit Comes' by Colin Urquhart? If not I recommend it.
People get a buzz and relieve stress babbling and think they are speaking in tongues. But this is not biblical tongues that expired with the apostles who distributed the gifts through their hands.
Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction
 
  • Informative
Reactions: ICONO'CLAST
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dave, Dave, Dave, I've read that stuff already.

Like I stated earlier, God doesn't love you any less if you don't and doesn't love you any more if you do. At this point, we just need to agree to disagree. Have a great day and a wonderful Easter.
But you have not read your bible on the matter. Or we would not be having this discussion.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That was the experience of those people. You cannot take narratives out of the Bible and make doctrine out of them.


What do we base our doctrine on, If not the Bible?

Man’s opinion, based on his own experience or lack of it?



JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are reading Pentecostal dogma into these passages. And they do not mean what you assume they mean. You need to study for yourself and pray that God will give you understanding.


I’m not Pentecostal, and do not teach their “dogma”.



If you don’t believe what the scriptures say, then you will not be convinced even if one were to rise from the dead and tell you.


Everyone in the New Testament that was baptized with the Holy Spirit has evidence that was seen and heard.


Not just the Apostles.


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

Evidence that was seen or heard.


again


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Acts 10:44-46


Evidence that was seen or heard.


again



Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Again Simon saw the evidence.




JLB
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’m not Pentecostal, and do not teach their “dogma”.



If you don’t believe what the scriptures say, then you will not be convinced even if one were to rise from the dead and tell you.


Everyone in the New Testament that was baptized with the Holy Spirit has evidence that was seen and heard.


Not just the Apostles.


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

Evidence that was seen or heard.


again


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Acts 10:44-46


Evidence that was seen or heard.


again



Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Again Simon saw the evidence.




JLB
But in every case where they spoke in tongues, it took an apostle's hands or the two outpourings.
 
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Amen.

Satan hates the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

He has deceived many into thinking the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence that can be seen and heard as well as Apostles and Prophets have all ceased.



JLB
You do not understand baptism of the Spirit.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"BCsenior,
[First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …]

No. that biblical teaching is alive and healthy. Just because false teachers offer wrong ideas changes nothing.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But in every case where they spoke in tongues, it took an apostle's hands or the two outpourings.

Yes, I agree, which also proves that the ministry of Apostles has not ceased since the Baptism with the Holy Spirit has not ceased.




JLB
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Yes, but that is not what Cessationists teach. They say they stopped and would never start again - John MacArthur. Funny though, the Greek word for cease in 1 Corinthians 13 means "pause." Exactly what happened.

It is true that the exact meaning that is assigned to the word makes a difference. However, I disagree about what cessationists teach.

To the best of my knowledge and experience, they simply say that there was a cessation. A resumption would not change that.

Few Christians would content that God cannot grant someone a gift when and if he chooses and that he has, from time to time, done so. That is freely acknowledged by the cessationists I know who represent a number of the major denominations.

And then we get continuationists who insist that they never did cease, that anyone claiming a cessation is faithless, and that tongues, for example, might have seemed to have ceased but actually they had not.

Or they argue that history is all wrong or wouldn't have paid any attention to this matter, as though the church was alive with tongues-speakers but no one recorded any mention of it. (!)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.