The Rapture Is God's 10% Cut

GodsGrace101

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I cannot agree that John 3:13 allows people other than Nicodemus [and the Jewish rulers of his time] to go to heaven.
The failure of there being any proof text where it is said people can live in heaven, simply destroys your case. Further debate is pointless.

I know from all the prophesies what God does plan for His people in the end times.
It surely is not for us to sit in heaven, so that makes the 'rapture' theory wrong and will never happen.
I'm sorry I don't know your position on the rapture.
Are you saying there's no such occurrence as the rapture?

If you are,,,then I agree.
And if you are,,,then could you tell me what you believe this means:

Mathew 24:40-41
40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
 
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ewq1938

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Are you saying there's no such occurrence as the rapture?

If you are,,,then I agree.


Paul spoke of the rapture using the Greek word for rapture so it cannot be said that there is no rapture. Only the details about the rapture can be in dispute.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Paul spoke of the rapture using the Greek word for rapture so it cannot be said that there is no rapture. Only the details about the rapture can be in dispute.
The Greek doesn't mean anything.
Rapture in English means a very specific happening.

What do you think it means in Greek?
Could you post the verse to which you're referring and maybe the Greek lexicon?

I hate using Greek...
 
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ewq1938

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The Greek doesn't mean anything.
Rapture in English means a very specific happening.

What do you think it means in Greek?
Could you post the verse to which you're referring and maybe the Greek lexicon?

I hate using Greek...


1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation known as "post-trib".
 
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GodsGrace101

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1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation known as "post-trib".
Let's see if I understood you...

I said the Greek doesn't matter...
and, once again, I think it doesn't.

You said what RAPTURE means in latin and middle french, but not in Greek...

Here's what it means in Greek:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

harpazō

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


So, actually, I agree with you.
Jesus is coming back one time,,,not two times.
The "rapture" is also the resurrection.

Those who are living will be caught up with those who are dead and BOTH will get their resurrection bodies.

If this is post rapture, then that's what I agree with.

I don't care for eschatology, but I do believe Jesus is coming for His Church ONE TIME.

Did I understand you?
 
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ewq1938

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Let's see if I understood you...

I said the Greek doesn't matter...
and, once again, I think it doesn't.

You said what RAPTURE means in latin and middle french, but not in Greek...

Here's what it means in Greek:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

harpazō

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


So, actually, I agree with you.
Jesus is coming back one time,,,not two times.
The "rapture" is also the resurrection.

Those who are living will be caught up with those who are dead and BOTH will get their resurrection bodies.

If this is post rapture, then that's what I agree with.

I don't care for eschatology, but I do believe Jesus is coming for His Church ONE TIME.

Did I understand you?

Mostly. The Greek does matter because that is what the NT manuscripts were written in. Harpazo in the Greek has the same exact meaning that rapture does in English...to catch or lift up.

"The "rapture" is also the resurrection." this would also be wrong. The resurrection happens first, which is the dead coming back to life and have immortal bodies...these do not get raptured. The rapture happens next, and is living people being caught up to the clouds to meet with Christ. Before being lifted up they are changed from mortal to immortal. This is not a resurrection because there was no death but a transformation of bodies.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Mostly. The Greek does matter because that is what the NT manuscripts were written in. Harpazo in the Greek has the same exact meaning that rapture does in English...to catch or lift up.

"The "rapture" is also the resurrection." this would also be wrong. The resurrection happens first, which is the dead coming back to life and have immortal bodies...these do not get raptured. The rapture happens next, and is living people being caught up to the clouds to meet with Christ. Before being lifted up they are changed from mortal to immortal. This is not a resurrection because there was no death but a transformation of bodies.
Right.
I think we do agree. I'm not as fussy about what comes first or second. The way Paul describes it it does happen at the same time...so I'll take your word for what comes first. WE will be changed in the twinkling of an eye...

The dead will also receive their glorified bodies.
I meant glorified before.... It's 2 am here...I better log off...

I do have my belief about Mathew 24,,,but too sleepy now....
 
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ewq1938

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Right.
I think we do agree. I'm not as fussy about what comes first or second. The way Paul describes it it does happen at the same time...so I'll take your word for what comes first.

I'll quote Paul on it:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Resurrection is first.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

caught up is harpazo in the Greek which means a rapture, after the resurrection. Basically at the same time but the order is one before the other.
 
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samwise gamgee

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Mathew 24:40-41
40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Many people believe this statement refers to the rapture. If you study the context you will see that it is speaking of what will happen when Christ returns after the tribulation to set up his kingdom on earth. The ones taken away will be taken in judgment; the ones left will live to enter the Millennial kingdom. The rapture takes place before the tribulation and those who were raptured will return to help rule in the kingdom.

The rapture and the resurrection are who distinct events. The resurrection of both the good and the bad had been foretold before Jesus came to earth. A resurrection is simply the restoration of the dead to life. The rapture is the removal of a group of people, both dead and living, from the earth. In the process those who are dead will be restored to life, but this is not part of the resurrection that had been foretold.
 
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_Dave_

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Many people believe this statement refers to the rapture. If you study the context you will see that it is speaking of what will happen when Christ returns after the tribulation to set up his kingdom on earth. The ones taken away will be taken in judgment; the ones left will live to enter the Millennial kingdom. The rapture takes place before the tribulation and those who were raptured will return to help rule in the kingdom.

The rapture and the resurrection are who distinct events. The resurrection of both the good and the bad had been foretold before Jesus came to earth. A resurrection is simply the restoration of the dead to life. The rapture is the removal of a group of people, both dead and living, from the earth. In the process those who are dead will be restored to life, but this is not part of the resurrection that had been foretold.
Samwise, that's exactly right.

Besides the fact that virtually all of Matthew 24 is tribulation prophecy, the main clues are in Jesus calling it the Great Tribulation in v.21 and in the parable in v.43 where the house is visited by the thief. All of the "thief" prophecies are apocalyptic ... not the rapture.

Of course, there are many here who don't see it that way.
 
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ewq1938

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The ones taken away will be taken in judgment; the ones left will live to enter the Millennial kingdom.

Except it is the second coming when the taking and leaving happen so it's Christ deciding to take or leave. Taken means to be accepted in the Greek, like a companion you want to join with you, and left means to be rejected like divorcing someone or abandoning someone so your explanation goes against what the words mean.

The truth is Christ will take those he wants to be his companions in the rapture which is a catching or taking up of people, and those "left" are rejected as being his companions and are left to face the wrath of God, abandoned to their fates.

See it for yourself:

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".






Who was TAKEN into the Ark?
Who was LEFT outside the Ark?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean to accept as a companion and does NOT mean to reject and leave to die?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi means to reject and leave someone to die and does NOT mean to accept as a companion?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean you survive?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean you do not survive?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Many people believe this statement refers to the rapture. If you study the context you will see that it is speaking of what will happen when Christ returns after the tribulation to set up his kingdom on earth. The ones taken away will be taken in judgment; the ones left will live to enter the Millennial kingdom. The rapture takes place before the tribulation and those who were raptured will return to help rule in the kingdom.

The rapture and the resurrection are who distinct events. The resurrection of both the good and the bad had been foretold before Jesus came to earth. A resurrection is simply the restoration of the dead to life. The rapture is the removal of a group of people, both dead and living, from the earth. In the process those who are dead will be restored to life, but this is not part of the resurrection that had been foretold.
OK. I won't be discussing this anymore because, basically, I don't believe in ANY rapture...
except as explained by you above,,,I think.

In Mathew 24 Jesus is most probably speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Those taken are the UNLUCKY ones...most probably the Roman soldiers taking persons away to be killed or imprisoned or crucified, or who knows what else.

Those left are the LUCKY ones...they get to stay in their field and finish what they were doing, or eating...or whatever.

You could check this out...many theologians believe this is what is meant in Mathew 24.

Jesus never spoke about a rapture the way it's being explained today...AND no one in the early church believed this. It's a modern day idea and there is so much controversy about it that it cannot be accepted as truth.
 
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keras

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OK. I won't be discussing this anymore because, basically, I don't believe in ANY rapture...
except as explained by you above,,,I think.
Sorry for my delay in replying.
Like you, I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven'. Nowhere does the Bible tell us that God will take His people to heaven in the end times.
We are told what God requires of us; it is to stand firm in our faith until the end. Revelation 14:12, +

The 'harpazo' mentioned in 1 Thess 4:17, and touted by 'rapture' proponents, is just a gathering of the Lord's people from where they are on earth, to where He is on His Return for His Millennium reign. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Sorry for my delay in replying.
Like you, I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven'. Nowhere does the Bible tell us that God will take His people to heaven in the end times.
We are told what God requires of us; it is to stand firm in our faith until the end. Revelation 14:12, +

The 'harpazo' mentioned in 1 Thess 4:17, and touted by 'rapture' proponents, is just a gathering of the Lord's people from where they are on earth, to where He is on His Return for His Millennium reign. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31.
OK. That sounds good too.
The rapture is a concept from, I believe, the 19th century.

Whatever happens here on earth, we're all going to be here. It does make a good sci-fi story though; which I do believe has happened in books and movies.

If a plane is carrying passengers and the pilot is saved and taken away...the unsaved passengers will all die in a crash.

Would God cause this evil to happen?
I sometimes wonder if people think about what they believe.
 
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SeventyOne

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If a plane is carrying passengers and the pilot is saved and taken away...the unsaved passengers will all die in a crash.

Would God cause this evil to happen?
I sometimes wonder if people think about what they believe.

In what way is that evil? Would God be breaking some sort of promise of protection given to those left behind? Do people have divine assurance of their well-being from day to day that would somehow be violated in the process?
 
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ewq1938

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OK. That sounds good too.
The rapture is a concept from, I believe, the 19th century.

Actually it came from the first century from Christ in the gospels and was highlighted by Paul in a letter to the Thessalonians.
 
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ewq1938

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If a plane is carrying passengers and the pilot is saved and taken away...the unsaved passengers will all die in a crash.


Saved people at the time of the rapture aren't going to be flying planes or driving cars. They will most likely be in hiding or in prison when they are caught up to the clouds. This comes the day the GT ends, so people who are Christians and still alive will have been persecuted for 42 months...so they won't have their pilots license or jobs flying planes because the beast won't allow them to have jobs or earn money etc.
 
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