John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

friend of said:

I used to be hard on Peter but then I realized that there's a very good reason for Peter's existence and interaction with Christ.

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Please share!

What I've gleaned is that Peter was used by God in many ways like God used the Israelite's....an example for us to learn from. We see his heart become hardened and unhardened prior to Christ's death, burial and resurrection several times. That in itself is beautiful, for the hardening of hearts kept all of the disciples alive that day that Christ was tortured and murdered. If it were not for Peter mentioning that Paul was his beloved brother, mmmm....Peter, Peter, Peter....GOOD SAVE!

But man, Peter really adds some difficult challenges to the faith. In fact, if I were to ever want to destroy, or attempt to destroy the Christian faith, I would target Peter FOR SURE!

Jason0047 said:

But John MacArthur said in a Cessationism video that anyone who denies Once Saved Always (like we do) is committing blasphemy or something to that effect. In fact, no Calvinist believes in Conditional Salvation. Their talk of holiness is a smoke screen or double message because they say you cannot lose salvation. This means that sin cannot separate person from God in his view, but that a believer will show in time to live holy. But what about in the meantime? In other words John is against a person having to maintain their salvation. He said so himself.

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I'm guessing that John formulates his ideas bases upon the Sin Nature being "cut out", or "removed" as some scriptures state.

What if John's belief is that this is a literal concept? And if it is, the Sin Nature having been removed, we would then be unblocked in our path to Christ.

Thank you for this discussion by the way. Great job of communicating with each other.

Thess said:

I guess I don't understand. Have I done something wrong by expressing my individual Spiritual experience?

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No. But that doesn't mean the same thing it does for me that it does for you, necessarily.

Jason0047 said:

Read the article on him.
He speaks like many Christians today do.
He talks about if salvation depended on works than he would not be saved; But he believed he would be saved on the basis of his belief in Jesus alone. In fact, I had Christians admit to me in person and online that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so.

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We have the expectation that people are going to go out into the world to serve their neighbor but that doesn't translate into a specific legal requirement. We count on people exercising their own moral agency in that regard.

In that sense, we do not believe in this "Once Save, Always Saved" thing. On the other hand, when Luther said no sin can separate us from the Lamb, he meant that we can have confidence in God's grace, even if we sin, that we are forgiven. It does not mean that God condones our sins. Killing random strangers for no reason will never be considered a good thing by us.

After the shooting at Tree of Life Synagogue this past year, I was greatly saddened. In fact I think many people in my congregation were. The same is true years ago when there was a shooting at Emmanuel AME in Charleston, especially because it was committed by someone who was estranged from our church. We are not generally psychopathic like that. Most Lutherans are peaceful, law abiding people that believe in public service. Our church has alot of police, firefighters, soldiers, and teachers in our congregation.

Jason0047 said:

In fact, I had Christians admit to me in person and online that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so.

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Shocking, isn't it? My former "best friend" of 37 years treated his daughter so poorly that she had been mutilating her own body with razor blades for years, wanted to die and also wanted to kill her father, I would assume. He lived in strip clubs getting absolutely wasted which wife and two children are at home alone while daddy and husband are out making money, taking care of them. He's made at least one other so miserable, just last year, that they wanted to kill themselves. Wow.

Like you said, this sick man said, "I'm still safe and secure within the arms of Jesus." Christians are generally the most unloving people I've ever known. Christians that believe in OSAS, but are not actually saved, are the ones causing the world to hate us with their unknowing, hidden from themselves hypocrisy....we need to put these false brothers and sisters out of the Church, exactly as Paul would. 1 Cor 5:5.

Thess said:

Please share!

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I forgot the article I read but it was pretty lengthy and it made a really important case for Peter and the type of "spirit" that was in him. Eager to do everything he could for the Lord even when it put him out of his depth and made him error.

Thess said:

We see his heart become hardened and unhardened prior to Christ's death, burial and resurrection several times. T

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It's also an astounding testimony to the depths of God's mercy in how Peter is dealt with afterward. Here's Peter, the most zealous Apostle of the lot, the apostle mentioned the most in the gospels, denying Christ in fear of his own life. Overcome with agony and despair at his own conduct.

Should Peter, of all people in the world, past and present, have known better? Certainly so. What a mighty fall that would have plunged us all into paralytic despair of damnation. Surely Peter doubted his salvation utterly in those moments. Those words of Christ that spoke "he who would seek to save his life will lose it" must have been grinding on his conscience like a millstone. How could someone so close, who had been given so much as the very company of God, who's place in heaven was as certain as the wind in the sky, simply fail of Life itself?

But the Lord knew his heart and made way for his restoration. His is a cautionary tale of fervant self-examination, the necessity of a faith that makes one courageous in the face of death, a reminder that our assurance of understanding is always subject to God's ruling.

And I see that Jason is still parading around that mentally Ill, fringe, wingnut, mass murderer and using him as the template example of the typical OSAS believer.

>___>

friend of said:

I forgot the article I read but it was pretty lengthy and it made a really important case for Peter and the type of "spirit" that was in him. Eager to do everything he could for the Lord even when it put him out of his depth and made him error.



It's also an astounding testimony to the depths of God's mercy in how Peter is dealt with afterward. Here's Peter, the most zealous Apostle of the lot, the apostle mentioned the most in the gospels, denying Christ in fear of his own life. Overcome with agony and despair at his own conduct.

Should Peter, of all people in the world, past and present, have known better? Certainly so. What a mighty fall that would have plunged us all into paralytic despair of damnation. Surely Peter doubted his salvation utterly in those moments. Those words of Christ that spoke "he who would seek to save his life will lose it" must have been grinding on his conscience like a millstone. How could someone so close, who had been given so much as the very company of God, who's place in heaven was as certain as the wind in the sky, simply fail of Life itself?

But the Lord knew his heart and made way for his restoration. His is a cautionary tale of fervant self-examination, the necessity of a faith that makes one courageous in the face of death, a reminder that our assurance of understanding is always subject to God's ruling.

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Peter's early life makes perfect sense, as He was a Jew living under the Law, thus Romans 7 defines his thinking patterns perfectly, that he loves God, but cannot do the things he wants to do for Him, and the things Peter wants to do for God, he cannot do. BUT after the Holy Spirit had been given? It's hard, then, to teach unity, the one "Mind of Christ", etc, for Peter had his own ideas and had to split. I would love to see what Peter said about Paul and Paul spoke of him. (There's always two sides to every story.)

See what I mean?

Thess said:

Shocking, isn't it? My former "best friend" of 37 years treated his daughter so poorly that she had been mutilating her own body with razor blades for years, wanted to die and also wanted to kill her father, I would assume. He lived in strip clubs getting absolutely wasted which wife and two children are at home alone while daddy and husband are out making money, taking care of them. He's made at least one other so miserable, just last year, that they wanted to kill themselves. Wow.

Like you said, this sick man said, "I'm still safe and secure within the arms of Jesus." Christians are generally the most unloving people I've ever known. Christians that believe in OSAS, but are not actually saved, are the ones causing the world to hate us with their unknowing, hidden from themselves hypocrisy....we need to put these false brothers and sisters out of the Church, exactly as Paul would. 1 Cor 5:5.

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The thing to do with those types of people isn't necessarily to double down on scaring the crap out of people or turning up the thumbscrews of moralism or legalism on people that actually go to churches, though. That doesn't help anybody.

Proper Lutheran preaching doesn't generally produce those types of people. I'm not saying we are perfect, no human being is. But I generally think that's not representative of the Lutheran approach. Being safe and secure in Jesus arms means being safe and secure in the arms of someone that also loves our neighbor and wants what is best for them too.

friend of said:

And I see that Jason is still parading around that mentally Ill, fringe, wingnut, mass murderer and using him as the template example of the typical OSAS believer.

>___>

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friend of said:

I forgot the article I read but it was pretty lengthy and it made a really important case for Peter and the type of "spirit" that was in him. Eager to do everything he could for the Lord even when it put him out of his depth and made him error.



It's also an astounding testimony to the depths of God's mercy in how Peter is dealt with afterward. Here's Peter, the most zealous Apostle of the lot, the apostle mentioned the most in the gospels, denying Christ in fear of his own life. Overcome with agony and despair at his own conduct.

Should Peter, of all people in the world, past and present, have known better? Certainly so. What a mighty fall that would have plunged us all into paralytic despair of damnation. Surely Peter doubted his salvation utterly in those moments. Those words of Christ that spoke "he who would seek to save his life will lose it" must have been grinding on his conscience like a millstone. How could someone so close, who had been given so much as the very company of God, who's place in heaven was as certain as the wind in the sky, simply fail of Life itself?

But the Lord knew his heart and made way for his restoration. His is a cautionary tale of fervant self-examination, the necessity of a faith that makes one courageous in the face of death, a reminder that our assurance of understanding is always subject to God's ruling.

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I don't even think it's about a morality lesson in that way. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him but had already prayed for him. Satan was going to sift them, but he wasn't going to get to keep him. It is ultimately a story about God's grace more than Peter's failure.

Thess said:

Peter's early life makes perfect sense, as He was a Jew living under the Law, thus Romans 7 defines his thinking patterns perfectly, that he loves God, but cannot do the things he wants to do for Him, and the things Peter wants to do for God, he cannot do. BUT after the Holy Spirit had been given? It's hard, then, to teach unity, the one "Mind of Christ", etc, for Peter had his own ideas and had to split. I would love to see what Peter said about Paul and Paul spoke of him. (There's always two sides to every story.)

See what I mean?

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Just keep in mind Peter was a simple fisherman, whereas Paul had alot more formal education, both in religion and the world (he's familiar with Greek literature, for one thing). They were not necessarily intellectual equals.

FireDragon76 said:

The thing to do with those types of people isn't necessarily to double down on scaring the crap out of people or turning up the thumbscrews of moralism or legalism on people that actually go to churches, though. That doesn't help anybody.

Proper Lutheran preaching doesn't generally produce those types of people. I'm not saying we are perfect, no human being is. But I generally think that's not representative of the Lutheran approach. Being safe and secure in Jesus arms means being safe and secure in the arms of someone that also loves our neighbor and wants what is best for them too.

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Yes, removing cancer is always a good idea, as the removal prevents the spreading of the disease. Thus a sinful member that refuses to change, is the same. I would know....I had that exact effect on a church when I was young.

I'm not sure what you mean, that Lutherans are generally more upright than others....it's not like the former friend of mine was doing everything in the open. On the contrary, NO ONE but me knew what he was doing. All of us at that church were really good, wonderful and amazing people...seriously, but we were all just lacking the indwelling Holy Spirit, thus we could not obey. Wonderful people that thought they were slaves to Christ, and I mean they would tell you that, but they were not. We were all fake, every single one of us. It was a sad church....having maybe four baptisms per year?! We were a small church, much at capacity I would think, but still....4 per year? I went to that church from age 14 to about 21, I think....and I really needed them to punch me around, cut off a hand or something....beat me....anything. I needed people to get into my grill and help me to wake up, but none of them knew that they needed to come to me with a "rod". I needed the Apostle Paul....he would have helped.

So as you can see, if you're saying that Lutherans have the better path, then I'll check them out again for sure. But the teachings, from what I recall from over 20 years ago, were pretty wild and unsubstantiated in my human estimation. That said, I love to hear convincing arguments for anything and by anyone. I'll entertain any ideas if someone want's to share them. Unfortunately, this form of discussion is time consuming. I'd much prefer actual discussion on things like this, if you know what I mean.

FireDragon76 said:

Just keep in mind Peter was a simple fisherman, whereas Paul had alot more formal education, both in religion and the world (he's familiar with Greek literature, for one thing). They were not necessarily intellectual equals.

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That is a really great point. I like that insight a lot.

FireDragon76 said:

It is ultimately a story about God's grace more than Peter's failure.

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What do you mean by "grace"? Just curious.

Jason0047 said:

In other words John is against a person having to maintain their salvation.

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I don't maintain my salvation. It's not a car or a pet. It's not like I'm constantly on the brink of losing it and I have to be frantically doing works to keep it going. The same God who saved me can certainly keep me until the end.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phillippians 1:6)

But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. (2 Timothy 1:12)

I've attended churches exclusively until very recently that works were necessary to either be saved, stay saved, or both. There are just as many sinners in those churches as there are in any other. While in some an incorrect understanding of eternal security may lead to complacency, that in and of itself doesn't prove it false. People can abuse just about any doctrine you put forth.

SaintCody777 said:

Actually, that's a common strawman for the so-called "free-grace" position. Most "free grace" teachers say and teach that though professing Christians who still willfully dwell in their sin will still be accepted into Heaven and God's Kingdom, they will not do so without any consequences in this life, nor in the Kingdom of Heaven. This carnal believer will be punished by God in this life, lose rewards and privileges in heaven, and be barred from the Supper of the Lamb.
On the contrary to what many Lordshipers think, "free grace" proponents and adherents have plenty of reasons to live holy lives that are God pleasing. To name a few these reasons are to gain crowns, rewards and privileges in heaven, as well as to give thanks and glory to what God has done, and to contribute to others for the good of society. It's just that making sure you have fruit of genuine salvation is not one of them. While in reality, the Bible does say this in places like 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 to examine our faith to see if we have really been born again. Throughout 1 John, the death kneel of the so called "free grace" doctrine, there are clear tests to prove whether someone who professes to be a child of God really has Christ living in them. Mark 8:34-8 is also one of the many death kneels for this doctrine in the Bible. Discipleship is synonymous with being a child of God and being saved.

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Jesus taught that if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John taught that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Yet, all I have talked within the Free Grace crowd say that one or two grievous sins like this will not separate you from God. Some believe God will force you back and chasten you, and you will have no choice but to repent. As if you did not have free will or something. But the Scriptures tell us to keep yourselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21). So abiding in the love of God is not an automatic thing.

There are different degrees in the Free Grace Camp. There are many have talked with who think they can live like the devil and yet be saved. Then there are those who think that if you generally live a holy life you are fine but one or two grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) will not keep you out of God's kingdom. Then there are those who think that you will be pushed to live holy, and confess sin immediately, if not, you were never born again to begin with. The first two are wrong because it is turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Many I have talked with say that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This is saying that we can do the same kinds of sins and still be saved. This a horrible thing to teach to others. Imagine if a child hears such craziness. But that is what we hear from Free Grace teachers. No need to maintain your salvation. Do not worry about sin. Just live life however you like and believe in Jesus. But that's not what I read when I pick up my Bible. If anything there tons of warnings on the dire consequences on a person's soul in the after life if they sin. Over, and over, and over again there are the warnings. But the Free Grace crowd ignores them. They demand that they mean something else but they do not come up with rational explanations on these warning verses.

worshipjunkie said:

I don't maintain my salvation.

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The Bible says otherwise.

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

25 "And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish." (Luke 14:25-30).

Jesus said,
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not,
because ye are not of God."
(John 8:47).

John 6:66-69 says,
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jude 1:21 says,
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

14 "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:14-17).

You said:

It's not a car or a pet. It's not like I'm constantly on the brink of losing it and I have to be frantically doing works to keep it going. The same God who saved me can certainly keep me until the end.

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Yet, the Bible says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
(1 John 2:3-6).

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

You said:

I've attended churches exclusively until very recently that works were necessary to either be saved, stay saved, or both. There are just as many sinners in those churches as there are in any other. While in some an incorrect understanding of eternal security may lead to complacency, that in and of itself doesn't prove it false. People can abuse just about any doctrine you put forth.

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First, gathering in big buildings (with unbelievers or fence sitters being invited to do altar calls) on a weekly basis is actually not a biblical form of fellowship.

Check out these threads here:
God's Order in the Church vs Man's Order
The Pastor King (New)

Second, we are living in the last days. The Bible talks about how in the last days men will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof. They will be lovers of their own selves, unholy, covetous, despisers of those who are good, etc.


This is why you will not find many who are walking the straight and narrow path. Most are not interested in doing that. Noah and his family were the only ones who were righteous. The rest of the world was living wickedly and God destroyed that world with a flood.

The flood was an example to all who should live ungodly there after (See 2 Peter 2:5-6).

Most are not truly interested in following Jesus exactly. They want to do their own thing and also have the benefits of God. But it does not work like that. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. Paul says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Thess said:

I'm guessing that John formulates his ideas bases upon the Sin Nature being "cut out", or "removed" as some scriptures state.

What if John's belief is that this is a literal concept? And if it is, the Sin Nature having been removed, we would then be unblocked in our path to Christ.

Thank you for this discussion by the way. Great job of communicating with each other.

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Galatians 5:24 talks about crucifying the affections and lusts.
1 Peter 4:1-2 talks about ceasing from sin.
False prophets were those who could not cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

Note: I am talking about "Grievous sin" (like hate, lust, lying, drunkenness, etc.) and not minor infractions or faults of character (like not taking the trash outside the other night when it was a little stinky or going a little over the speed limit that did not put any other lives in danger). For there is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17).

Anyways, the point I was trying to make about John MacArthur was that he is teaching a double message. On the one hand, he appears to teach holiness (Which is good), and yet on the other hand he sabotages that attempt by saying you cannot lose salvation. In other words, one or two grievous sins in his view does not mean a loss of salvation or he believes that a true Christian will be forced against their will to confess of those sins immediately. I am not sure how it works exactly, but he is a Calvinist. This means everything is forced upon the individual by God. So if a person is going to be saved, it is God forcing that upon the individual and the person does not really have a free will choice in the matter. This is still dangerous to teach that you cannot lose salvation because if a person thinks they cannot lose salvation, they can commit sin and still think they are saved while doing so. John MacArthur is saying that you will eventually get back on track. But little does he realize that Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to their nakedness the moment Adam ate of the tree. Little does he realize that Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Holy Spirit. God can kill us right away for committing certain sins that are bad. It is only by His mercy and grace can we have any hope to overcome grievous sin in this life. Most do not fear God as the Scriptures say. They just think God is this good buddy to them while they sin.

Thess said:

I'm not sure what you mean, that Lutherans are generally more upright than others....it's not like the former friend of mine was doing everything in the open. On the contrary,

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I think "uprightness" starts with integrity and honesty, and it's difficult to be honest if you hold people to impossible standards.

NO ONE but me knew what he was doing. All of us at that church were really good, wonderful and amazing people...seriously, but we were all just lacking the indwelling Holy Spirit, thus we could not obey. Wonderful people that thought they were slaves to Christ, and I mean they would tell you that, but they were not.

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I don't know enough about the church to comment. It sounds to me like you have potentially been hurt by religion, either through unrealistic expectations or through spiritual abuse. Because every church is going to have some kind of imperfection of some sort. There is no perfect church.

We were all fake, every single one of us. It was a sad church....having maybe four baptisms per year?!

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This is judging something by worldly standards, or what we call, a "theology of glory". Four baptisms is four more than no baptisms.

We were a small church, much at capacity I would think, but still....4 per year?

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That's close to what we have in my congregation. Young people in my area don't typically go to church anymore.

So as you can see, if you're saying that Lutherans have the better path, then I'll check them out again for sure. But the teachings, from what I recall from over 20 years ago, were pretty wild and unsubstantiated in my human estimation. That said, I love to hear convincing arguments for anything and by anyone.

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We have a group here for Lutherans, you are welcome to drop in and ask questions.

worshipjunkie said:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phillippians 1:6)

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God does not force you.

"Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?" (Amos 3:3) (NIV).

15 "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."
(Philippians 2:15-16).

If you keep His words, both God the Father, and Jesus will make their abode in you.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. (2 Timothy 1:12)

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Yet, the Bible also says,

"The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul." (Proverbs 16:17).

"if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12).

12 "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; " (2 Timothy 3:12-14).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

FireDragon76 said:

I think "uprightness" starts with integrity and honesty, and it's difficult to be honest if you hold people to impossible standards.



I don't know enough about the church to comment. It sounds to me like you have potentially been hurt by religion, either through unrealistic expectations or through spiritual abuse. Because every church is going to have some kind of imperfection of some sort. There is no perfect church.



This is judging something by worldly standards, or what we call, a "theology of glory". Four baptisms is four more than no baptisms.



That's close to what we have in my congregation. Young people in my area don't typically go to church anymore.



We have a group here for Lutherans, you are welcome to drop in and ask questions.

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Jesus said with God, nothing is impossible.

So it is not about your own effort or working, but it is about allowing God to take control of your life. It is about surrendering to the Lord and confessing sin (i.e. repenting). Many great men of God were able to do amazing things by God's power. Samson destroyed thousands of men. The walls of Jericho came down by men of God obeying the words of the Lord. So it is not by our power, but by the power and might of the Lord to overcome our battles.