Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

BCsenior said:

They say the overcomers are these ...
"Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5)
But, they only overcome "the world" of nonbelievers!

Jesus defines who the real overcomers are ...
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)

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Yeah, but they miss the part of the verse that talks about overcoming the world. 1 John 2:15-17 says if any man love the world or the things of this world, the love of the Father is not in them. They miss the part in James that to be a friend of the world is to be God’s enemy.

MDC said:

The pride in sinful religious man always looks to SELF as justification before God. Believers look to Christ as their justification before God and forsake SELF. The latter is certainly not the wide path that many follow, but definitely the narrow. The majority of professing Christianity believes the former and holds to cooperative salvation between man and God. Only few rest and believe in the gospel of Grace

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Do you need to do good in order to make it to heaven? Or can you get to heaven without doing good?

Very simple questions if you would please answer them.

dad said:

Nothing you ever do merits salvation we are saved because He is good.
Yes.
That verse is about some folks falling and being restored. The life that is saved in this case is the mortal life, which can be terminated if we sin too much, but that has ZERO to do with eternal salvation.
Bring them back to a love of God and godly life so that they don't need to be killed (delivered over to Satan) in order to be saved.

1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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Mortal death punishment is silly and has no examples in the NT except in that one situation where Peter killed two. Also if you read about mortal punishment in the OT, God also blots their names out of the book of life. Read about Moses and the golden calf. When Moses goes back up after killing 3,000 of the idol worshipers, God pronounces that He blotted their names out of the book and this is after their mortal death.

Exodus 32

31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

And also I am one of those people that I heavily suspect that has done the sin unto death. I can tell you that it's real and possible to die spiritually in this life.

dad said:

Yes.

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Then you were unable to understand the following, and if so, though I thought I made it clear, I'll be happy to help you understand.

Or did you disagree with this, the same scripture that shows we can lose salvation?

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

dad said:

How that that mesh with the OP where someone thinks they need some particular works to remain saved when old?

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?

Invalidusername said:

Mortal death punishment is silly and has no examples in the NT except in that one situation where Peter killed two. Also if you read about mortal punishment in the OT, God also blots their names out of the book of life.

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The book of life is not a book of those who chose Jesus only, apparently, but also of names that could have but refused, so they get blotted out. As for your claim that the bible is silly talking about what can happen to believers in extreme cases, sorry, you are overruled. Paul clearly talked of some being delivered to death so that their spirit would live.

. Read about Moses and the golden calf. When Moses goes back up after killing 3,000 of the idol worshipers, God pronounces that He blotted their names out of the book and this is after their mortal death.


Exodus 32

31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

And also I am one of those people that I heavily suspect that has done the sin unto death. I can tell you that it's real and possible to die spiritually in this life.

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Whether we live or die it is gain! The folks who worshiped idols lost their chance but who says they were saved??

Php 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Once we commit ourselves to His hands, no one will ever be plucking us out, not even ourselves. We might sin unto death...sin so bad God sees fit that it is better we no longer live on earth in the flesh...but we shall never die if we believe in Jesus.

Kenny'sID said:

Then you were unable to understand the following, and if so, though I thought I made it clear, I'll be happy to help you understand.

Or did you disagree with this, the same scripture that shows we can lose salvation?

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

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Sorry you failed to comprehend the answer I gave to your misinterpreting this verse. You will not be saving anyone...ever. Jesus does that. You being loving and kind to some believer that has really blown it may save that believer from having to be allowed to die in the flesh. NOTHING at all to do with SALVATION.

dad said:

Nothing you ever do merits salvation we are saved because He is good.

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That's not what Jesus says here. He actually says we re saved if we do good.


John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

But it's clear by now, you are to far gone to see. I mean if Christ himself can't convince you, who can? So go on, act as you like, God knows you know the truth that Jesus told you, and you have chosen to go your own way, but please don't make it worse on yourself by teaching it to others.

dad said:

Sorry you failed to comprehend the answer I gave to your misinterpreting this verse. You will not be saving anyone...ever. Jesus does that. You being loving and kind to some believer that has really blown it may save that believer from having to be allowed to die in the flesh. NOTHING at all to do with SALVATION.

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But the scripture says you will be saving them from death. Again I think you are just to far gone...now you don't even believe what the bile tells us point blank.

I'm sorry.

dad said:

Great, but who asked about works or what they have to do with saving us or keeping us saved!?

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What do you mean by who asked about works? Our works that comes from our faith is an indication or evident of the Spirit beginning to dwell within us and the Spirit is the one that saves us...John 14:10-11, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father living in me who is doing His work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or at least believe on the evidence of the work themselves..

Kenny'sID said:

But the scripture says you will be saving them from death. Again I think you are just to far gone...now you don't even believe what the bile tells us point blank.

I'm sorry.

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Right, physical death, you do not save people from eternal death. David was severely punished/judged for sins. That was a sign God loved Him. Others were killed. Others have judgments that fit their situations. His judgments are better than gold. The gift of eternal life is not up for grabs. His gifts and calling are without repentance.

pasifika said:

What do you mean by who asked about works? Our works that comes from our faith is an indication or evident of the Spirit beginning to dwell within us and the Spirit is the one that saves us...John 14:10-11, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father living in me who is doing His work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or at least believe on the evidence of the work themselves..

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Great...so? Of course real works will be a result of Him in us. But no works save us or keep us saved.

BNR32FAN said:

Did you read post 144? This explains most of the verses you quoted friend.

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Actually it only addressed two of them and then not very effectively IMO.
I listed over 40 and those just scratched the surface.

BNR32FAN said:

I would go into the rest of them but I’m at work and don’t have the time right now.

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Don't go to the trouble.
I hadn't intended to stay this long on the thread and your work might be wasted on me. I hate to see you go to all that trouble.
You might want to save your labor to debate others who will be here longer.

dad said:

Hmm so if you think ice cream is a sin and deliberately allow yourself to have one, that is a sin unto death?

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1 John 3:4 tells us that sin (willful) is lawlessness. Eating ice cream isn't against God's laws. Now if you know the ice cream is laced with cyanide and you eat it to commit suicide, then I guess you are murdering yourself.

1stcenturylady said:

1 John 3:4 tells us that sin (willful) is lawlessness. Eating ice cream isn't against God's laws. Now if you know the ice cream is laced with cyanide and you eat it to commit suicide, then I guess you are murdering yourself.

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Well, what about if we get mad sometime and are unkind to a neighbor or unloving, and maybe smack them one rather than turning the other cheek?

dad said:

Well, what about if we get mad sometime and are unkind to a neighbor or unloving, and maybe smack them one rather than turning the other cheek?

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Unrighteous anger is not good. A believer can be cut asunder and have their portion with the hypocrites if they were to do that.

49 "And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:49-51).

You have to be careful with anger because it can turn into hate.
Hate is like murder.
For John says that if you were to hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15). So yeah, not sure how you can read the Bible and change so many verses that teach how many sins can separate a believer from GOD.

Jason0047 said:

Unrighteous anger is not good. A believer can be cut asunder and have their portion with the hypocrites if they were to do that.

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I see. So I guess if we cut off their ear with a sword like Peter did, we get appointed unto wrath. Got it.

You have to be careful with anger because it can turn into hate.
Hate is like murder.

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Right, so if we have some hate for a moment we are murderers and appointed unto eternal wrath. Got it.

So yeah, not sure how you can read the Bible and change so many verses that teach how many sins can separate a believer from GOD.

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No need to change any, just a need to understand them.

dad said:

Great...so? Of course real works will be a result of Him in us. But no works save us or keep us saved.

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dad said:

Great...so? Of course real works will be a result of Him in us. But no works save us or keep us saved.

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Yes you're right No works save us..only the Spirit. Thank you

His student said:

Actually it only addressed two of them and then not very effectively IMO.
I listed over 40 and those just scratched the surface.

Don't go to the trouble.
I hadn't intended to stay this long on the thread and your work might be wasted on me. I hate to see you go to all that trouble.
You might want to save your labor to debate others who will be here longer.

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Out of those 40 how many of them hung on the contingency of faith and belief? Hence the definitions I provided.

dad said:

Well, what about if we get mad sometime and are unkind to a neighbor or unloving, and maybe smack them one rather than turning the other cheek?

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I doubt that person is even saved to begin with? In order to be saved we MUST be born again of the Spirit of Christ. The person you are describing is fulfilling the lust of the flesh and does not even have a seed of the fruit of the Spirit.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.

Out of the nine fruit of the Spirit, it is evident that he failed in 7 of the fruit of the Spirit. They will know we are Christians by our FRUIT.