LDS Ephesians 2:1-10

Rescued One · Apr 11, 2019

Peter1000 said:
That is why the Lord restored his true church, to teach the world what was actually required to be saved.

Some people think that they belong to the true church who in fact do not. We must be born again having faith in the only true God.

The truth:
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We are forgiven first by God(John 3:16) and because He so graciously forgave us, we forgive others (Ephesians 4:32). We are free from Satan's power; otherwise we could not forgive.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Yodas_Prodigy1 · Apr 11, 2019

Peter1000 said:
The Church of Jesus Christ understands the concept of grace. This is a very good scripture about grace, and we believe it to be true. It stands for itself as read.

All men also need to understand the will of God, and to be engaged in the good works that Christ Jesus prepared beforehand so we may do them.

Here is a question for you: If you do not do the good works that Christ Jesus has prepared beforehand so you may do them, will he offer you his grace?

This passage isn't just about grace... Could you explain this passage verse by verse? It is one cohesive message... Saying, "It stands for itself as read" is not the way one is to rightly divide the word of truth...

St_Worm2 · Apr 11, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Since the death of the apostles in the first century, the gospel of salvation has been watered down to just about this: believe in Jesus, and the second you believe, you are saved, no matter what you do for the rest of your life. That is not what Jesus taught. That is not what the bible teaches. That is not what the apostles taught.

Hi Peter1000, no church within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (none that I know of anyway, you know, no Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican church, etc.) has ever taught or believed that, not in the 1st Century, and not now, because you're right, "that's not what Jesus taught, that's not what the Bible teaches, and that's not what the Apostles taught".

In fact, when the church had moved far enough away from the Biblical teaching of salvation by grace through faith, to teaching that salvation could be earned or bought by us, even in part (by the procuring of "indulgences", for instance), we ended up with the Protestant Reformation. So, the Reformation is all the evidence that's needed to show you that what you've been taught about us, IOW, what you just said about the historic Christian church above, has never been true!

BTW, if you happen to know of a group claiming to be a Christian church/denomination today that teaches, "believe in Jesus and you are saved .. no matter what you do for the rest of your life", please tell me/us which church teaches that as part of its doctrine. Thanks!

That said, while the Bible teaches us that Christians do good works in obedience to God's will, it doesn't tell us that we must do them in order to acquire/earn/deserve our salvation! Rather, it tells us that we choose to do them because we are ~already~ saved (by God's grace, not by our works), because we have ~already~ been regenerated and born again, because we have ~already~ been given a new heart and a new spirit, because we have ~already~ been made into wholly "new creatures" in Christ, because we have ~already~ been made, "His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for~ goods works", not because of them :preach:

e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10

I didn't begin to act like a Christian, you know, choose to live a holy (rather than sinful) lifestyle before God (to please and honor Him) until the day I became a Christian, until the day I was saved. Before then, I guess I was a nice enough guy, but I basically lived for things the pleased me, not for God. Christians act and think like Christians ... because that's what we are ... not because we're hoping to prove ourselves worthy of God's gracious salvation so that we can become one someday.

Thanks!

--David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
.

St_Worm2 · Apr 11, 2019

Peter1000 said:
...the Lord restored his true church, to teach the world what was actually required to be saved.

Hi again Peter1000, so, part of the reality of what your church teaches is this, that God sent the (previously unknown) angel Moroni down here to do for us what His Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit had failed to do/were unable to do for us.

WOW, doesn't that seem just a tad on the arrogant side to you :scratch:

(it is certainly the most arrogant belief that I've ever heard). In fact, if you, as a reasonable/rational person, set aside the Mormon presupposition that you guys refer to as, "The Great Apostasy", for just a moment, I can't believe that you'd think it could possibly be true either

(of course, I suppose it's really not possible for you guys to think along those lines, because if your doctrine .. The Great Apostasy .. is not true, then Mormonism cannot be true either)

--David

Ironhold · Apr 12, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Peter1000, no church within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (none that I know of anyway, you know, no Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican church, etc.) has ever taught or believed that, not in the 1st Century, and not now, because you're right, "that's not what Jesus taught, that's not what the Bible teaches, and that's not what the Apostles taught".

Yes, it's being taught.

Within Protestantism, many individuals and even individual ministries practice an extreme form of "Once Saved, Always Saved". The minute that you are "saved", by which they mean "you say a certain prayer or otherwise accept Jesus into your life", you functionally receive a "get out of jail free" card. Not only are all past sins forgiven, but whatever you do through the rest of your life is just fine with Jesus... unless, of course, you do something truly terrible to the point that they can't just dismiss it, in which case they write you off as having never been saved to begin with.

The materials produced by Chick Publications, a highly bigoted religious publishing house* whose works are alarmingly common in Protestant churches,** have this extreme form running through their works, with at least one work even printing a prayer someone can say to be instantly "saved".

So yes, it is indeed being taught, which is why we have to warn against it.

*Nutshell: According to Jack Chick, the guy who started everything, the Pope is Satan's emissary on Earth. Many of Chick's tracts and other publications consist of a sprawling conspiracy theory in which he claims that the Roman Catholic faith is engaged in a vast effort to suppress "true" Christianity, that is, Chick's version of it; if he's not laying whatever thing he doesn't like at the feet of Satan himself, Chick is laying it at the feet of Catholicism.

There's actually a tract in which he calls the Communion wafer a "death cookie" and claims that the IHX inscription is actually a tribute to three pagan deities. That's how absurd his materials are.

**In spite of how absurd his materials are, Chick Publications is still going on as a business venture even after Chick's death, with the online retail portal they have vending materials in case lots. Even with the various local efforts at reaching out to one another, about once or twice a year Chick Tracts still flow like water down here thanks to a specific church; they take the liberty of stamping their contact information on what they hand out, so we all know it's them.

Peter1000 · Apr 12, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Some people think that they belong to the true church who in fact do not. We must be born again having faith in the only true God.

The truth:
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We are forgiven first by God(John 3:16) and because He so graciously forgave us, we forgive others (Ephesians 4:32). We are free from Satan's power; otherwise we could not forgive.

Click to expand...

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are forgiven first by God(John 3:16) and because He so graciously forgave us, we forgive others (Ephesians 4:32). We are free from Satan's power; otherwise we could not forgive.

If we can not bring ourselves to forgive all men that trespass against us, it does not matter how much we believe in Jesus, we will not be saved in his kingdom.

He is the way · Apr 12, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Mormon salvation is rewarded after they've obeyed the laws and ordinances that are required. They could explain this but apparently don't want to --- is it a secret?

It is no secret. Why is it necessary to explain what is in the Bible? Do you think the laws (commandments) and ordinances were in the Bible without a reason? Jesus said:
(New Testament | John 14:15 - 16)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

That is a wonderful promise.

Peter1000 · Apr 12, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again Peter1000, so, part of the reality of what your church teaches is this, that God sent the (previously unknown) angel Moroni down here to do for us what His Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit had failed to do/were unable to do for us.

WOW, doesn't that seem just a tad on the arrogant side to you (it is certainly the most arrogant belief that I've ever heard). In fact, if you, as a reasonable/rational person, set aside the Mormon presupposition that you guys refer to as, "The Great Apostasy", for just a moment, I can't believe that you'd think it could possibly be true either (of course, I suppose it's really not possible for you guys to think along those lines, because if your doctrine .. The Great Apostasy .. is not true, then Mormonism cannot be true either)
]We are forgiven first by God(John 3:16) and because He so graciously forgave us, we forgive others (Ephesians 4:32). We are free from Satan's power; otherwise we could not forgive.
--David

(Previously unknown) is unimportant. And he was known in the BOM lands of the Americas approximately 400ad.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit send angels all the time to give messages to mankind. You will have to ask one of them why they chose to use angels rather than deliver the messages themselves. But it is pretty documented their use of angelic messengers.
The reason the angel Moroni was such a sensation for Christians in JS time and even today is because the preaching was: the heavens are closed. God is not sending messengers any more. They are not needed because we have the bible. So when JS said he received the BOM from an angel, he was laughed and scoffed at because the pastors of the day thunderously declared that the heavens were closed, no more need of prophets, or revelation from God or angelic messengers.
Well they were right to some degree, it had been 1800 years since God sent an angel to the earth to announce an important message. So to the churches in JS time, the heavens were closed.

If I did not believe in the 'great apostasy', I would see no need of JS or restoration from God and Jesus and the angel Moroni. If you read your history of Christianity, you will know in your heart that there was certainly an apostasy from the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. You cannot read of the ruthless, arrogant activity of the leadership of the 'church' after the apostles died and not know that something died with the apostles. What died were the 'keys to the kingdom of heaven'.
Does your church have the keys to the kingdom of heaven today? The same keys that were given to Peter,
(Matthew 16:19) which was the power to bind and loose on earth, and heaven would recognize that work?

Peter1000 · Apr 12, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Peter1000, no church within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (none that I know of anyway, you know, no Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican church, etc.) has ever taught or believed that, not in the 1st Century, and not now, because you're right, "that's not what Jesus taught, that's not what the Bible teaches, and that's not what the Apostles taught".

By the time of the protestant reformation, Luther called the pope, the emissary of satan. The Catholic church at the time was the spiritual leader of at least 1/2 of all Christians. If the pope was satan's emissary, then an apostasy from the truth had really taken place. Jesus's gospel was being supervised by satan. Now I have read the history of the relationship of the Eastern churches and the Western churches, and the leadership in both divisions were astonishingly the same. They were not saints.

So what they taught was not the same gospel that was taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. Luther could see it and chose to risk his life to escape from it, which he did. But interestingly enough he brought into the church more unsound doctrine.
The idea that you do not need a priest between you and God.
The idea that all you needed to do is believe in Jesus and you would be saved, without having to do the sacraments that the RCC outlined as sacred to salvation.
He is the origin of OSAS, which is a prevalent evangelical doctrine. Which absolutely means that once you believe, you are saved, no matter what you do the rest of your life. Once saved, always saved.
Doesn't say, once saved, always saved, unless you.....

He is the way · Apr 12, 2019

Yodas_Prodigy1 said:
Thanks. I think you misunderstood my request. Could you explain each individual verse and how they are impacted or inter-related to the other verses. I think verses 1 through 10 are a cohesive message... Let me know what you think about those verses...

1 And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Sin is death

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

You lived a worldly life ruled by Satan.

3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

A life of lust, self indulgence and anger towards others.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us,

But through the love and mercy of God...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Though we were dead in our sins the atonement (grace) can take away our sins.

6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Those who overcome the world will sit with Jesus on His throne (see Rev 3:21)

7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So that we can be where He is: (see John 17:24)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The atonement (grace is a gift of God.

9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

We are not saved by works nor is that possible.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Nor can we be saved without works.

mark kennedy · Apr 12, 2019

He is the way said:
1 And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Sin is death

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

You lived a worldly life ruled by Satan.

3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

A life of lust, self indulgence and anger towards others.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us,

But through the love and mercy of God...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Though we were dead in our sins the atonement (grace) can take away our sins.

6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Those who overcome the world will sit with Jesus on His throne (see Rev 3:21)

7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So that we can be where He is: (see John 17:24)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The atonement (grace is a gift of God.

9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

We are not saved by works nor is that possible.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Nor can we be saved without works.

I'm getting two issues, they seem rather disjointed. One is regard to the commandments Jesus told his Apostles to obey, it is clear from the context he was giving them a new commandment and there is no reference to the Law of Moses. Secondly we are told from the BOM that we are saved by grace only when we do everything we can, Paul never preached any such doctrine and you will certainly find nothing like that in Ephesians.

Then there is a strange issue of the Apostle's doctrine dying with the Apostles, last time I checked the Apostle's doctrine was safely recorded in the pages of the New Testament. The gospel is the Apostle's doctrine and at the heart of it is justification by grace through faith, apart from works. Paul was utterly unambiguous on this point, he even said that he worked harder then the other Apostles by the grace it took to save him.

I don't see the difference between eternal life and eternal security, they two expressions are just two ways of expressing the same thing. The clutch phrase of OSAS is an affront to Protestant Reformation teaching, you either have eternal life or it's not salvation in the New Testament sense.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Rescued One · Apr 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
If we can not bring ourselves to forgive all men that trespass against us, it does not matter how much we believe in Jesus, we will not be saved in his kingdom.

Jesus brings us new life, so we forgive others just as he forgave us. Don't ignore Ephesians 2:1-10, Ephesians 4:32 and Titus 3:4-6. But you can't see what God is saying, so these verses will help others but you seem to not even want to believe them. We don't deserve credit for what Christ does!

Real joy is mine because I see how much the Savior has done and is doing for me. I want to share that joy with others.

As for being saved in His kingdom, He has already brought me there. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

No matter how much you believe in a false Christ, all he has done is make you a member of the CoJCoLDS, which contrary to LDS teaching is NOT the Kingdom of God on earth. I pray sincerely that God will open your eyes.

Rescued One · Apr 12, 2019

He is the way said:
1 And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Sin is death

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

You lived a worldly life ruled by Satan.

3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

A life of lust, self indulgence and anger towards others.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us,

But through the love and mercy of God...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Though we were dead in our sins the atonement (grace) can take away our sins.

This is where you jumped the track! Your Doctrine and Covenants is the cause of that failure.

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

God's mercy isn't tied to your supposed righteousness.

You call the atonement a gift. But in your religion every blessing and gift is reserved for those who can manage to earn them. Your religion teaches that some are more worthy of being blessed than others and the atonement is only an opportunity instead of a payment for our unrighteousness.

"...not of works lest any man should boast."

Rescued One · Apr 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
By the time of the protestant reformation, Luther called the pope, the emissary of satan. The Catholic church at the time was the spiritual leader of at least 1/2 of all Christians. If the pope was satan's emissary, then an apostasy from the truth had really taken place.

Your church excommunicates apostles, and other leaders. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught falsehoods. Your members are NOT saints.

He is the way · Apr 12, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I'm getting two issues, they seem rather disjointed. One is regard to the commandments Jesus told his Apostles to obey, it is clear from the context he was giving them a new commandment and there is no reference to the Law of Moses. Secondly we are told from the BOM that we are saved by grace only when we do everything we can, Paul never preached any such doctrine and you will certainly find nothing like that in Ephesians.

Then there is a strange issue of the Apostle's doctrine dying with the Apostles, last time I checked the Apostle's doctrine was safely recorded in the pages of the New Testament. The gospel is the Apostle's doctrine and at the heart of it is justification by grace through faith, apart from works. Paul was utterly unambiguous on this point, he even said that he worked harder then the other Apostles by the grace it took to save him.

I don't see the difference between eternal life and eternal security, they two expressions are just two ways of expressing the same thing. The clutch phrase of OSAS is an affront to Protestant Reformation teaching, you either have eternal life or it's not salvation in the New Testament sense.

Grace and peace,
Mark

There are plenty of scriptures that state that we can not be saved by our works, and there are plenty of scriptures that say we can not be saved without works, therefore both situations must be true.

mark kennedy · Apr 12, 2019

He is the way said:
There are plenty of scriptures that state that we can not be saved by our works, and there are plenty of scriptures that say we can not be saved without works, therefore both situations must be true.

There are plenty of Scriptures that say we are not saved by works and none that say we are saved by them. We are saved for good works, that's not a requirement for salvation, that is salvation and we do well to understand that distinction.

Peter1000 · Apr 12, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Your church excommunicates apostles, and other leaders. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught falsehoods. Your members are NOT saints.

When an person goes outside the will of God and does things that are so outrageously wrong, one way to protect them from themselves is to excommunicate them from their duties and drop them to their lowest level of humility, then the climb back upward can start to take place. Thousands have been excommunicated and then fought their way back into the the church by turning their life over to God and then listening and doing the will of God. They are lovingly received and given back their blessings of priesthood and temple attendance and take their seat among the people again.

Excommunication is a starting point of repentance and is a loving, and caring process that some need in order to get their lives in order again. It does not matter that you are an apostle, or a bishop, or a priest, or a regular ward member, the process is the same.

Actually, our members are saints, they are latter-day Saints. In this case, the word saints = a baptized member of the church. That is what it meant in the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. It was after the apostles died that this word saint became something else.

Peter1000 · Apr 12, 2019

mark kennedy said:
There are plenty of Scriptures that say we are not saved by works and none that say we are saved by them. We are saved for good works, that's not a requirement for salvation, that is salvation and we do well to understand that distinction.

You are saved unto the good works that Jesus has before appointed you to do. If you do not do them, you will not be saved, no matter how much you think you believe in Jesus.

mark kennedy · Apr 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You are saved unto the good works that Jesus has before appointed you to do. If you do not do them, you will not be saved, no matter how much you think you believe in Jesus.

That's something for you to consider as a believer, not something you get to decide for someone else. Works cannot save you, nor are they a condition for salvation, anything else is a works righteousness. Apart from works is unambiguous, to add works to the merits of salvation is an affront to grace.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-6)

There is nothing indicating saved by works, it's exactly the opposite. What is even more important is what you consider works, describe these works required for your salvation for me. Does it start with water baptism?

He is the way · Apr 12, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
This is where you jumped the track! Your Doctrine and Covenants is the cause of that failure.

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

God's mercy isn't tied to your supposed righteousness.

You call the atonement a gift. But in your religion every blessing and gift is reserved for those who can manage to earn them. Your religion teaches that some are more worthy of being blessed than others and the atonement is only an opportunity instead of a payment for our unrighteousness.

"...not of works lest any man should boast."

Both of these statements are true: We are not saved by works. We are not saved without works. Both statements are Biblical and can easily be proven. Obedience is necessary:

(New Testament | Romans 6:16)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are many scriptures that show that works are necessary for salvation that can not be ignored.

LDS Ephesians 2:1-10

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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