Some newbie questions

worshipjunkie said:

Hi,
I've been looking at the Reformed position almost since I was saved, and I would consider myself Reformed in many ways but I have some questions that are bugging me.

1. Is the only way we can have assurance of salvation is in retrospect- in other words, when you die a Christian, everyone around you can let out a collective breath and say "Wow, she was really a Christian." Can I never know, on my own? I came to the Lord (I thought) when I was a very mature ten year old, was a Protestant for 8 years, left, practiced witchcraft, came back, but almost immediately converted to Catholicism and was Catholic other then a brief period for 15 years. But I continued to be convicted on stuff in Catholicism, and this December gave my life to the Lord- I tend to believe for the first time, but I think back on those earlier years when I was a pre-teen/teen and I do remember loving Jesus, wanting to pray, wanting to read my Bible. I didn't have Christian parents and me becoming a "Fundamentalist" was actually a big deal in my home so I wasn't just parroting my parents' faith. So when was I saved? And is there any way to know if I'm saved now?

2. If salvation is not available to all, how do you explain verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, or Ezekiel 33:11, or Titus 2:11?

3. Why are there so many verses in the Bible telling us to turn and repent if we can't do it?

4. Is it true that the Reformed position states that God is right and just to command something that the person as no capacity to do (to throw out a wierd example, God commands a newborn to do complex geometry)?. If so, doesn't that directly challenge the justice of God?

Thanks in advance for any and all of these you will answer.

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a) salvation is available to all
b) we can repent
c) we have the capacity to do it

...but we will not want to or we will have not enough strength without being born again.

worshipjunkie said:

Hi,
I've been looking at the Reformed position almost since I was saved, and I would consider myself Reformed in many ways but I have some questions that are bugging me.

1. Is the only way we can have assurance of salvation is in retrospect- in other words, when you die a Christian, everyone around you can let out a collective breath and say "Wow, she was really a Christian." Can I never know, on my own? I came to the Lord (I thought) when I was a very mature ten year old, was a Protestant for 8 years, left, practiced witchcraft, came back, but almost immediately converted to Catholicism and was Catholic other then a brief period for 15 years. But I continued to be convicted on stuff in Catholicism, and this December gave my life to the Lord- I tend to believe for the first time, but I think back on those earlier years when I was a pre-teen/teen and I do remember loving Jesus, wanting to pray, wanting to read my Bible. I didn't have Christian parents and me becoming a "Fundamentalist" was actually a big deal in my home so I wasn't just parroting my parents' faith. So when was I saved? And is there any way to know if I'm saved now?

2. If salvation is not available to all, how do you explain verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, or Ezekiel 33:11, or Titus 2:11?

3. Why are there so many verses in the Bible telling us to turn and repent if we can't do it?

4. Is it true that the Reformed position states that God is right and just to command something that the person as no capacity to do (to throw out a wierd example, God commands a newborn to do complex geometry)?. If so, doesn't that directly challenge the justice of God?

Thanks in advance for any and all of these you will answer.

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Sometimes I don't see these threads until later.

1. You can have assurance of your salvation now, you don't have to be dead. For we read in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we also be glorified with him." The Spirit assures us in our hearts that we belong to Christ. Are there other evidence that the Spirit dwells in us? Yes, if you are bearing fruit and growing in Christ (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 55:22-23; etc). Remember Jesus' words: a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. If you are in Christ, you will bear fruit for God that you didn't, and couldn't, bear when you were an unbeliever under the law. "Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." (Rom. 7:4-6). It is more than the external change, anyone can change what they do in the body, but it begins with an internal change of the heart and the mind in its thinking. You change from the inside out. When we are born again, we begin to see a change, a difference, a contrast in how we were before we were saved and what we are now. We don't think the way we use to think, or love the things we use to love, and hate the things we use to hate. We begin to feel right for what is right, and hate what God hates. So, there are many proof that God provides to show you and assure you that you belong to Christ. His word is also evidence, which states that the promises in Christ are yours if you believe in him. If God says it, then we can be assured that it is true.

2. 1 Timothy 2:4, in light of verses 1-2, refers to God desiring all kinds of people to be saved, rather than every single individual. God desires to save those in high positions and those who aren't, those who are rich and those who aren't, those who are Jews and those who aren't, etc.

Ezekiel 33:11 shows that God does not take pleasure in the death of anyone, which is consistent with Reformed theology. Just because God doesn't desire to save an individual, doesn't mean he takes pleasure in their suffering. He has pleasure in justice and righteousness, but not in an individual's personal suffering and death. Different things.

Titus 2:11, same thing as we read in 1 Timothy 2:4. He came to bring salvation to "all" people in a general way. If we take this to a literal extreme in every way, then we would have to believe in universalism, that Jesus came to save every individual. This creates a further problem when we know in fact not everyone is saved or will be saved, throwing Jesus as a failure of Savior to save "all" people.

Here is a thought, if God desires to save every individual, why doesn't he? He is sovereign over all things, and we read, "Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases" (Psalm 115:3), and "Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps" (Psalm 135:6). If these statements are true, God is able to save every single person if he so pleases. If God desired to save everyone, nothing should thwart his desires, not even man's own will. We would have to reduce God to a man, incapable of doing what he wants. This is contrary to the entire Scriptures. If God wants to save someone, he will do it and will accomplish it.

3. This is a misunderstanding of what we mean by a corrupt will. We have a will to act and to do what God requires (righteousness), but because of the fall our will's moral ability has been damaged so that we desire to will what God hates willingly. It is still our responsibility to repent and believe, that's a command God commands all people, because we have the will to act on it. However, because of our slavery to sin we don't want to act on what God says, and we don't want to turn and believe in anything he says. Our "disability" is actually our "desire." The will cannot be separated from desire. Our desires are evil, and we desire evil we will act on that desire. Until God regenerates us, giving us a new heart and a new mind by the Spirit of God, we remain running away from God willingly and willfully. Regeneration changes the disposition of our heart and mind and will to see, to desire, and to choose what pleases God. Regeneration, on the part of God, creates faith in us to respond the way we should to the gospel message. If you have a will, you have a responsibility regardless of what you desire. In glory, our will will be perfectly made righteous, so that we will never again sin and do what is wrong.

4. I believe I answered this in #3.

worshipjunkie said:

So then is it the born again part that we don't choose, that falls under "irresistible grace"?

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Regeneration falls under Irresistible Grace and can be said to be almost the same thing. Once you hear the faithful preaching of the gospel, the Spirit changes your heart to seek after Christ, and works faith and repentance in you to receive him. Regeneration precedes faith, and faith is the product of regeneration and the irresistible/internal drawing of the Spirit.

You were irresistibly drawn to be saved by grace.

worshipjunkie said:

Just saw this...thanks for responding!

So then is it the born again part that we don't choose, that falls under "irresistible grace"?

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Yes, its the same as being born for the first time. Its something you do not decide.

worshipjunkie said:

Hi,
I've been looking at the Reformed position almost since I was saved, and I would consider myself Reformed in many ways but I have some questions that are bugging me.

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Welcome. Feel free to ask questions.

1. Is the only way we can have assurance of salvation is in retrospect- in other words, when you die a Christian, everyone around you can let out a collective breath and say "Wow, she was really a Christian." Can I never know, on my own? I came to the Lord (I thought) when I was a very mature ten year old, was a Protestant for 8 years, left, practiced witchcraft, came back, but almost immediately converted to Catholicism and was Catholic other then a brief period for 15 years. But I continued to be convicted on stuff in Catholicism, and this December gave my life to the Lord- I tend to believe for the first time, but I think back on those earlier years when I was a pre-teen/teen and I do remember loving Jesus, wanting to pray, wanting to read my Bible. I didn't have Christian parents and me becoming a "Fundamentalist" was actually a big deal in my home so I wasn't just parroting my parents' faith. So when was I saved? And is there any way to know if I'm saved now?

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Our assurance doesn’t come from anything in us but in Him. He said that if we believe Him then we are saved. He doesn’t go back on His promises.

When we seek to find assurance in ourselves all we can ever find, if we are honest, is sin and failure to be as we ought. Looking at ourselves has one of two effects: it makes us self-righteous or destroys our peace.

Moreover it takes our eyes off of Him who is our all. He said that if we come to Him we would find rest for our souls. We must rest in Him for He alone is all our hope. He is made of God unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. 1Cor. 1:30.

He is all my righteousness. I have no righteousness of my own. He is all my holiness for I have no holiness of my own. He is all my peace with God and all the blessings of God are in Him alone. He is all in all to me and for me. He is enough for God and enough for me. I need nothing or desire nothing but Him. I have nothing that I can claim except my sin. It is all mine.
He is the King my elder brother who does all things for me and in me. In Him I have all things and I am free from the bondage of works righteousness. Resting in Him alone I am free to work. Not for acceptance or for rewards but simply because I want to.

2. If salvation is not available to all, how do you explain verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, or Ezekiel 33:11, or Titus 2:11?

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There is not a verse in the Bible that stands alone. There are some that can be used to stand alone but every verse has a context which determines its meaning. First it’s immediate context then the context of the teaching of the whole Word of God.

1Tim. 2:4 is not a stand alone verse. It has a context which tells us who the men are whom Paul is speaking of. Verses 1-6 give us the context of verse 4.
The first time the phrase “all men” is used is found in verse 1. Verse2 then explains who Paul is speaking of. It is kings and all that are in authority. Tie that in with what Paul wrote in Rom. 13:1 and you see what Pauli’s saying in verse 4.

Again the context determines what is meant by Titus 2:11. That chapter begins with Paul telling Titus to speak those things which teach sound doctrine. He then gives examples of what should be taught. Then he gives the reason why those things should be taught. The grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord has appeared to all men. How has it appeared you ask? By the preaching of the Gospel. We know from 1 Tim. 1:8-11 that the grace of God in Christ is made manifest by the Gospel.


Ezekiel 33:11has been explained by someone else but let me reiterate. God is not a monster like man is. He takes no pleasure nor gets any satisfaction from the suffering of men according to His wise, strict and perfect justice. He does what is right and gives all their exact due. He is pleased with the Son and all who are in Him

3. Why are there so many verses in the Bible telling us to turn and repent if we can't do it?

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Because it is what we all should do. It is insanity not to. It isn’t so much that we cannot but that we will not. We don’t want to do what we are both pleaded with to do and commanded to do. The Bible never emphasizes ability but will. We simply will not. We read in many places in the Scriptures where God would have poured out blessings but we would not. Then there are places such as Ezekiel 39:21-38 which are filled with The Lord saying “I will” followed by “you shall”. He makes us willing in the day of His power.

4. Is it true that the Reformed position states that God is right and just to command something that the person as no capacity to do (to throw out a wierd example, God commands a newborn to do complex geometry)?. If so, doesn't that directly challenge the justice of God?

Thanks in advance for any and all of these you will answer.

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The answer is yes technically but the reality is that God is not only our Creator but our King. He has the authority to command whatever His wise, gracious, righteous and merciful will determines. We in this generation are not used to what it means to be under the rule of a Sovereign. But throughout history we find earthly kings who had absolute power in their kingdom. That means that whatever they command was required no matter the ability. The penalty for disobedience was usually death.

Now consider how wonderful and wise our Great King is. WhileHis commands have nothing to do with ability it isn’t a matter of ability but of will. We wouldn’t if we could. That is what the Scriptures teach and the Reformed position or at least ought to be. I am not technically Reformed because I disagree with them on some issues and don’t subscribe to any confessions.

I hope my answers help clear up your questions. Feel free to ask as any more as you want. In your service by the sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord alone. Twin.

worshipjunkie said:

Thanks for your answers!

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You are very welcome.

I just worry that if I could think I was a Christian for that long and then fall away, I could do it again. And I don't want to fall away. Some things are different then before in my heart and attitude, but then again, what preteen/teen has the heart and attitude they should, right? I know focusing on myself isn't the solution, but I want to make sure I've responded this time, that I truly am His.

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The Lord never said that you needed great faith to be saved. Not one single person who ever came to Him seeking mercy was turned away. Simply trust in Him to do what He said He would do. We grow in grace and faith as we travel, being strangers in the wilderness of sin, this life. The Scriptures say that through faith, not by faith as a work, you are saved. Walking y faith is not being super religious or super spiritual but simply resting inHim every day. It is starting every day looking to Him as your all in all.

In all honesty our faith is nothing worth shouting about for it is feeble at best. Our love for Him is nothing to boast about because it is much much less than He deserves. We walk in this life with two nature which battle each other every day. ( if you need Bible to show you this just ask.) But sin shall not have dominion over us. We are free from the bondage of the old man and we are told to put on Christ. Eph. 4. Most days it seems the old man has sway. I would hate for anyone to read my sinful mind. Yet I trust Him and rest in Him to give to me all He has prepared for me. Read Rom. 7. Paul was an old believer when he wrote that.

Moreover no matter what we fall into we can never diminish the love of God for us. His love is unchanging.

I guess it seems...dishonest? (looking for a word here that describes it) of God to plead for us to do something that He not only knows we will not do, but He knows we cannot do. Since I don't believe God's dishonest, that's something I'm having a hard time with. It'd be like if I told my kid to clean his room knowing not only did he not want to and would not do on his own, but I was going to physically hold him back from doing so, then punished him for not cleaning his room. I can get that God knows that our wills are such that we will not will to do good, but that He actively prevents us from doing good- that's more difficult.

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I understand what you mean. It does seem dishonest doesn’t it? BUT remember that God gave Adam, our head, just one commandment and even He couldn’t keep it. Now also consider that Adam wasn’t an imbecile but a brilliant man. He walked with God in the cool of the day and God gave him dominion over all of His creation. In the face of all he knew and all he experienced he still fell. Yet God was merciful and the first promise of the Gospel is found in Gen. 3:16.

Now consider that we all have inherited our father Adam’s nature and are bent to willful sin. He isn’t obligated to save any of us and really the fact that He does is amazing. He needs nothing from us and could be just as satisfied in Himself if He didn’t. We don’t deserve a chance nor do we even desire it.

So it isn’t dishonest for God to call us to repentance and faith knowing that we cannot respond. If Adam hadn’t fallen we would be able to respond. More than that it is the most reasonable thing in the world to obey God in repentance and faith. His command to do so simply makes our refusal more glaring rebellion. Do a search of the phrase “ye would not” and see the preponderance of the Scripture that focuses on our unwillingness to do that which God commands.

Israel never did do all thatGod commanded. They never kept the Sabbath or the year of jubilee. It had nothing to do with their ability but their willingness to do so.

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

Again I am your servant in Christ Jesus the Lord, Twin.

worshipjunkie said:

Is it then, that the fact that you come to Him seeking mercy that you can know you're elect and trust in His mercy and promises, because otherwise you would not have came to Him in the first place?

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Yes that is true. Thanks for clearing the water that I muddied.

Look at 1Thess. 1 and find the reasons that Paul said was proof of their election.

I don't have a problem so much with the idea that we would not respond, that we will not respond. It's the cannot.
And yet, on some level, I can see it...if someone is a psychopath and can't stop killing people, we don't erase the command not to murder due to his inability to keep it, nor do we let him run free because he can't control it. Is it somewhat like this quote? In this book by John Piper that I'm reading he says "It is not Biblical to say that the only virtues God can require of me are the ones I am good enough to keep. If I am so bad I can't delight in what is good, that is no reason God can't command me to love the good. If I am so corrupt that I can't enjoy what is infinitely beautiful, that does not make me less guilty for disobeying the command to delight in God. (Piper, When I don't desire God, pg. 45)"

Thank you, again, for answering my questions.

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The psychopath is a good example. But our responsibility lies in our will not. It is true that we cannot without a work of God in us and for us but as Adam represented all of us in his sin, Rom. 5, God holds us guilty because we will not. Adam’s sin is imputed to us to be sure and we are all sinners in him but our sin is willful rebellion against God. We do what our fallen nature dictates. A dog barks because it is his nature to do so and we sin against God because it is our nature to do so. We can do nothing else but the real problem is that we delight in our sin. Given the choice we will always choose sin. God is not unjust in His condemnation of the sinner. We deserve much worse.

JohnPiper is fine on some things but be careful of him. There are some things in his theology that are questionable.

worshipjunkie said:

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2. If salvation is not available to all, how do you explain verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, or Ezekiel 33:11, or Titus 2:11?

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Your post is actually way too big. It would take a massive answer to answer all questions adequately. I will comment only on 1 Tim 2:4 and context.
* First, I want to point out that words are defined by immediate context. Most of us agree. The word "all" has a variety of meanings. It frequently means "all kinds of people." Notice the frequency of the term "all."

I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all;

Obviously the word is used 6 times.
1- The first use is a slightly different issue, it speaks only of order. This is the first thing Paul is to address.
2- Prayers are to be given to all men. So in this first use, would you suggest Paul is referring to all men that ever lived? Or would you read it more simply... all kinds of men. If it is all men without exception, then you could start with the birth rolls and death rolls in your county. Then move on to surrounding communities. I doubt that is the meaning of the term all in the 2nd use, it probably is speaking simply of all kinds of men. In fact that is supported by the next use. Men in high places are a kind of men.
3- Pray for all in high places. Do you even know all men without exception in high places. How about a list of mayors in ever city in China? If the command is all men in high places without exception, then you should be securing that list of Chinese cities and the names of each mayor.
4- The result would be "all" godliness without any exception of Godliness? Something like sinless perfection? Or is this simply meaning all kinds of Godliness? What is the result of these prayers for men in high places.
5- The 5th and 6th use are the issue in question. Does God want all men without exception to be saved? Or does this use of the term "all" related to the previous 3 uses and simply mean that God wants all kinds of men to be saved. He wants people saved from every tribe, tongue, and nation, but not all men exclusively.
6- If we read this term "all" as in all men without exception have been ransomed, then how is that not universal salvation? No one can go to hell because it is a universal ransom. This 6th use seems the icing on the cake for my reading. Add to this the thought that that Christ is the mediator? What then, the mediation ministry of Christ fails? Can Christ go before the Father and appeal his own shed blood as a ransom, and the Father refuses? It would seem to me to necessitate a very weak view of the atonement that Christs mediation ministry ever fails.

Based on a contextual use of the term all in uses 2-4, I would suggest reading uses 5-6 in the same way. Why break up the context and read different uses of the term "all" in the very same context. I would think that when you quote 1 Tim 2:4, you assumed the reading of the term "all" to mean all men without exception, but I have great reservations about reading the term "all" in the way you do. The context seems to demand otherwise.

worshipjunkie said:

Thank you! Yes, that's how I tend to post especially when insomnia gets to me.




I have always believed that means that salvation is a gift given to all, but not all will accept it. I would have never seen it as a failing of Christ ,but a failing of us to accept. But that gets into free will and total depravity and it's all tied together, which was another reason my post was so long. And I admit, I've been very impressed with the Biblical strength of the Calvinist position.

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Nowhere in the Scripture is salvation by grace spoken of as an offer. It is always a gift. There is a difference. If I offer you something it becomes yours when you take it. You are the one who decides to act and make it your possession. If I give you something I make it yours. I am the one who decides to act and make it your possession. Now many want to argue that you can refuse a gift and I suppose that might technically be true though it doesn’t change the difference between a gift and an offer. Still, I have never known anyone to refuse a gift have you? Especially when you grasp something of the value of the gift. If you can refuse it it reduces the gift to an offer and changes the makeup of the transaction. A gift focuses on the giver and an offer focuses on the taker.

You see the difference makes all the difference in how we understand how sinners are saved.

There are other verses though, like 1 John 2:2- "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Going to the point to emphasize "whole" seems to indicate it's not a limited thing, but universal. Romans 11:32- "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." John 12:32- "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” I can see the point; obviously all men did not come to Jesus when He was on the cross, so it must have a different meaning. On the other hand, there are a lot of verses that speak of "all men" being loved or of Jesus dying for them, and it seems a bit off to think that every time the word all is used it means something else.

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Scripture sheds light and interprets Scripture. A few single verses that do not stand alone cannot build our theology. What does the preponderance of Scripture teach on any subject? That is how we build our theology. The single verses must be understood in the light of the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. When we approach a verse which speaks of a subject and the meaning can be understood in more than one way we go to the place in Scripture that is clear on the subject and then interpret the unclear in that light. Baptism for example. If we want to know what baptism is we go to Rom. 6 where it is clearly taught.

I don’t have the time right now to look with you at the verses you mentioned but I hope this helps clear it up. I am as always your servant in Christ Jesus the Lord, twin.


I had to edit because my stupid IPad put serpent instead of servant. Boy that would have scared you away from me wouldn’t it. Or at least should have.

worshipjunkie said:

I have always believed that means that salvation is a gift given to all, but not all will accept it. I would have never seen it as a failing of Christ ,but a failing of us to accept. But that gets into free will and total depravity and it's all tied together, which was another reason my post was so long. And I admit, I've been very impressed with the Biblical strength of the Calvinist position.

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If I may again post the verses we were discussing, 1 Tim 2:1-6
"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all;..."

When you say, "I would have never seen it as a failing of Christ," ----> Of course not, and that is appreciated, and I can respect that. On the other hand, what does Christs mediatorial ministry do for unbelievers. If you remember... you are reading the term "all" as in all men everywhere at all times. This of course includes unbelievers.

Now I do not know you, and you could be a universalist in the sense that all men at all times everywhere end up in heaven. Then Christs mediatorial ministry mentioned in bold above would be successful, but assuming you are not a universalist, can you explain the benefits of the mediatorial ministry of Christ to unbelievers? In what way was it successful?

Now of course, in the reading I do of the text, the term "all" is referring to "all kinds of men" and not all men without exception. Then I would see the text quite consistently as not referring to all men without exception and the atonement then has no benefit to unbelievers.

worshipjunkie said:

There are other verses though, like 1 John 2:2- "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Going to the point to emphasize "whole" seems to indicate it's not a limited thing, but universal. Romans 11:32- "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." John 12:32- "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” I can see the point; obviously all men did not come to Jesus when He was on the cross, so it must have a different meaning. On the other hand, there are a lot of verses that speak of "all men" being loved or of Jesus dying for them, and it seems a bit off to think that every time the word all is used it means something else.

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I recognize what is happening in the paragraph above. If one verse goes down, then it is normal to fall back upon other verses for support. Soon verses are being quoted and no exegesis provided from the context. Do not misunderstand me, I am not accusing you of doing this, but am willing to address each context in discussion, but only one at a time. Unfortunately, each time a verse is suggested, that will mean possibly several posts to discuss each context.

My question at this point is how do you feel about 1 Tim 2:4 and context after my comments. If you feel that we have discussed it enough, pick one of the verses you quoted above and we can move to that context (but only one at a time). Feel free to pick the one that you think is the strongest to start with. Also, I am aware that the list you presented is by no means exhaustive. There are a few other contexts that could be thrown in.

On the other hand, we have not even mentioned the verses that support the Calvinistic view of the atonement. Hopefully, we can do that later on, but for now, lets continue discussing the verses you consider the strongest against Calvinism

worshipjunkie said:

No, I'm not a universalist. The benefit to unbelievers would be that any roadblocks to salvation on God's side are gone. There is no longer any barrier between God and you except, if you choose it to be so, yourself. They will have no excuse, because the same gift was offered to all, even if all did not accept it. The slaves can be ransomed and free to leave yet choose to stay with the slave driver.
I have to admit I haven't thought about it in those terms much before, so I'm having a hard time wording what I mean. The first Christianity I was exposed to as a preteen was Wesleyan in orientation, and until recently I had never heard of another alternative, other then Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. So thank you for your patience.




Yes, I can see what you're saying about the context of 1 Timothy 2:4. I think we've covered that one. Strongest verse next...probably 1 John 2:2. Thank you very much for your time!

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I am sure Don will do a much better job than I but I do want to look at the passage with you.

1 John 2:1-2 (KJV) 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Here is one of those instances where we have to look at the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole to understand what John is saying. We go back to the Old Testament first.

Do you agree that all the sacrifices pictured the sacrifice of Christ? When the high priest went into the holy of holies who did he represent? Did that sacrifice and sprinkled blood cover the sins of anyone but Israel?

Those Old Testament sacrifices typified and pictured the once for all sacrifice of Christ Jesus the Lord. They show us that a perfect substitute must be brought and must shed His blood. They tell us of the Mercy seat between the cherubim where the Lord God said that He would meet His people. That Mercy Seat is Christ. That is what the word propitiation means. It means mercy seat.

The Mercy Seat covered the Ark of the Covenant and was made of beaten gold. It wasn’t molten gold but beaten gold pictureing for us the sufferings of Christ. It covered the broken table of the Law which was in the Ark.

Now the priesthood, the sacrifices, the blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat and even the Tabernacle and furniture typify Christ.

Let’s look now at Isa. 53. I want us to look particularly at verse 11.

Isaiah 53:11 (KJV) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It doesn’t say that He shall bear the iniquities of everyone but of the many.

We could talk about the scapegoat and the fit man who leads it into the wilderness never to be seen again and many other thing such as the wrath of God which fell on Noah’s Ark, which is a picture of Christ, and see how there were only 8 chosen people in the Ark that weren’t destroyed by the wrath of God.

The last one I want to look at is John 10:11.

John 10:11 (KJV) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

I am convinced that this is the most clear passage concerning particular redemption. The Good Shepherd gives His life for a particular people. They are called His sheep. Not everyone in the world without exception but His loved and chosen sheep.

Now I would like to point you to another verse in John 10.

John 10:25-27 (KJV) 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Notice verse 26. The Lord clearly tells some people that they are not His sheep. It doesn’t say that they are not His sheep because they believe not but that they believe not because they are not His sheep.

Now in the light of all that I have written here we can now get a better understanding of what John was saying in 1John2:2.

1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

I just want to take a second to remind you that any words that are in italics are not in the text but were added to make the sentence more readable and convey the thought better. That goes as well for the brackets you see in theses verses.

Now the word propitiation mean a covering or appeasement. If John had, by the inspiration of the Spirit, intended for us to understand the sentence to mean every person in the whole world he would have added that to His writing. But he was writing to believers not unbelievers who were probably Jews. They would have understood that Christ Jesus didn’t die for every person who ever lived or shall live because they were raised to believe that they were the elect of God.

John was telling them that it wasn’t just Jews that Christ died for. In that context we understand what the passage means. It means people scattered all over the world.

Now again look at the word propitiation. We have seen what it means but how does that affect the understanding of the passage? Well it tells us either the Lord Jesus saved everyone in the world and if he did so and they go to Hell in the end what good did His sacrifice do them? What good did the love of God do them? His great sacrifice is a failure to do what it was intended to do.

But we read in Isa. 42:4 that He shall not fail.

Isaiah 42:1-4 (KJV) 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

worshipjunkie said:

The benefit to unbelievers would be that any roadblocks to salvation on God's side are gone. There is no longer any barrier between God and you except, if you choose it to be so, yourself.

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I really should stick to textual discussions, but the above statement is drawing me out. If I can repeat your statement back at you as I am hearing it, would you say that there is now no "barrier between God and" unbelievers? The wrath of God does not exist upon unbelievers at this time due to the atonement? Are you saying this?

worshipjunkie said:

They will have no excuse, because the same gift was offered to all, even if all did not accept it. The slaves can be ransomed and free to leave yet choose to stay with the slave driver.

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The scripture uses the phrase "without excuse" in Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:"
The scripture tells us why men are without excuse and it has nothing to do with being offered a free gift or being ransomed. Romans 1:20 has to do with natural revelation. Men are without excuse because of natural revelation.

I think it important to point this out due to the fact that I think this is the core thinking at the presuppositional level. It is would agree that it is natural for people to think that everyone deserves a chance (1 Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.) However, I would not agree that this natural thinking is scriptural. Mankind deserves no more chance than a guilty murder-rapist. We are guilty due to original sin, Adam's sin, and also our own rebellion and sin. I think at the presuppositional level, this is the great difference between reformed theology, and non-reformed theology.

Can I also make some comments on your terminology of "slave driver?" That made me think of Romans 6 and John 8. There are a few other texts that speak of "slavery" to sin. Romans 6 tells us we are free, therefore we should not serve (be a slave to) sin. In Romans 6:18, the idea is that we are free even if we do not recognize it. Of course that would be stupid and foolish, but even then, we are free.
Anology-- As an illustration, in antibellium south, the slave was under bondage to the master. After the civil war, the slave was free. But some slaves stayed on the plantation and served their former master. That did not mean they were not legally free. The law said they were free and they were free. So are those under the blood of Christ. It is true that it is folly and stupidity to be a slave to sin when we are free because the divine judge and lawmaker made us free. So then, there is no such thing as staying in slavery when under the blood. There is wrong behavior and practice which acts as if we are in slavery, but the actual legal slavery is broken by the power of the blood.

worshipjunkie said:

Yes, I can see what you're saying about the context of 1 Timothy 2:4. I think we've covered that one. Strongest verse next...probably 1 John 2:2. Thank you very much for your time!

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I John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Thank you, I do need to stick to the text, I will leave what I wrote above, but I do want to stick to the text, so thank you.

I read what twin1954 said and would agree with what he does with 1 John 2:2. He goes after the word propitiation. Before defining the terms "whole world" one should define the term propitiation.
The non-Reformed understanding would be something like this--- a propitiation is a sacrifice that makes a hypothetical possibility of turning away Gods wrath from the person. Such a definition does not exist. Use any lexicon you wish and let me know if you can find such a definition. The term is talking about an actual gift that actually does turn away the wrath of God.

Again, I am going to ask you to look at the language in verse 1. Christ blood not only propitiates the wrath of God, but Christ is an "advocate with the Father." So then Christ advocates with the Father trying to get the Father's wrath not to abide upon unbelievers? I wonder how that works? Christ advocated for unbelievers?

I see only two possible interpretations of 1 John 2:2. Either universalism is true and Christ advocates and propitiates the sins of the entire human race, or reformed theology is true and the sins of the jewish readers of 1 John are propitiated, and also the sins of all kinds of people including gentiles (the whole world--- all kinds of people, but not all people without exception).

You either have to weaken the concepts of advocacy/propitiation to mean the provisions of a possibility of salvation, or you take the words "whole world" to not refer to all people without exception, but to refer to all kinds of people.

If I can add something on the world "all." (plagiarized from James Kennedy)
If I said my friends and I play football "all" the time, and you took that too mean at all times without exception, then language would break down. I actually take a few breaks from playing football and I work a job, sleep at night, and eat. Actually we use the term "all" with this meaning "all" the time. --- Well not really... we use words other than the word "all." In fact many Chinese never use the world "all" because they do not speak english. The point is that the terms "all" and "whole world" are commonly used not to speak of the whole human race without exception, but just to speak of all kinds of people, or a certain people. The terms "all" and "whole world"are very dependent upon context. In the two context you mentioned so far, you have other atonement concepts such as mediator or advocate that contextually should only be applied to believers.