Who Here Believes Born Again Christians...

SeventhFisherofMen said:

Haha I’m going to assume you realize I acknowledge there is nothing in this universe that can compare to Christ’s Blood and that my example is purely an example, and that you’re not ridiculing me because laundry detergent is some offensive example for you.

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To me, it's a poor example. That is what I was pointing out. We can't represent the power of Christ's Blood in terms of day to day life.

And as a SAHM who drowns in laundry about every other day (who knew a family could make soooo many dirty clothes?!?), laundry detergent is kind of offensive

Ken Rank said:

I am sorry, I did misunderstand. And yes, I do agree with that.

As far as the definitions... I actually have a different view than you when it comes to defining words. While I applaud you for thinking outside the box and putting in the time needed to get a good definition of words to have better context, I don't quite go where you are going with them. What I mean is, faith and shema (Hebrew for "hear") are actually two words with the same meaning. Anyone who has studied Hebrew knows that shema isn't just "hear" but rather, "hear and do" and who is heard is God. Paul wrote that faith comes by hearing the word of God and James added that it is dead without works.... hear and do.

Belief does not require hearing God, one can be convinced of something and not have heard or read from God. So while I again, applaud you for creating an environment of scholarship, don't get stuck on the Greek. Even if the NT was written in it (which I don't hold to) the writers were Jews, from Judea, and their mindset was Jewish. I am not exalting that, I am simply saying it matters with the context.

Blessings.
Ken

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Bless you brother Ken. Please correct me if I’m mistaken but Greek was commonly used after the Maccabee wars. The definitions are also supported by the Eastern Orthodox Church which was the churches established by the apostles themselves. These definitions also coincide with the watch church writings. They seem to line up with the history of the church according to the oldest writings we have available.

No one who "Born not of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God" can be UNBORN. And 1 John 5:4 says "Whoever is Born of God overcomes the world." This is why Jesus said "You must be Born Again...that which is born of Flesh is flesh and that which is Born of Spirit is spirit.".

Whoever is Born of God does not continue to sin (1 John 3:9). And whoever does not continue to sin goes to Heaven. There is no such thing as a Born Again Christian who will die in their sins, because Jesus said "Unless you believe I AM He, you will die in your sins" and again Jesus says to the damned "Depart from me I never knew you". To "KNOW" is to be inside of. Jesus CANNOT damn those He has foreknown.

The Holy Spirit is an Eternal Seal of God. A new Creation cannot be uncreated. God is the perfect Father and Shepherd. NONE of His Sheep get lost. He finds them all. When you are truly Born Again, your spirit and the Holy Spirit become ONE and God CANNOT die. This is why God is called the "Rock". Any soul that has truly found refuge IN Him cannot die, but "out of his bowels will flow rivers of living water". If a Born Again believe went to Hell, they'd go with Living Waters flowing out of their own soul. They would never thirst in Hell. When you get the Revelation of Eternal Security by the Holy Spirit, you will rejoice and glorify God, not sin willfully.

Fear of being damned is PROOF that Holy Spirit is working in you already. And out of Fear of God, the Children of God OBEY and are saved. There is no such thing as a Born Again Christian that does not Fear God enough eventually obey. God's Spirit makes sure of that.

Jonathan Mathews said:

No one who "Born not of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God" can be UNBORN. And 1 John 5:4 says "Whoever is Born of God overcomes the world." This is why Jesus said "You must be Born Again...that which is born of Flesh is flesh and that which is Born of Spirit is spirit.".

Whoever is Born of God does not continue to sin (1 John 3:9). And whoever does not continue to sin goes to Heaven. There is no such thing as a Born Again Christian who will die in their sins, because Jesus said "Unless you believe I AM He, you will die in your sins" and again Jesus says to the damned "Depart from me I never knew you". To "KNOW" is to be inside of. Jesus CANNOT damn those He has foreknown.

The Holy Spirit is an Eternal Seal of God. A new Creation cannot be uncreated. God is the perfect Father and Shepherd. NONE of His Sheep get lost. He finds them all. When you are truly Born Again, your spirit and the Holy Spirit become ONE and God CANNOT die. This is why God is called the "Rock". Any soul that has truly found refuge IN Him cannot die, but "out of his bowels will flow rivers of living water". If a Born Again believe went to Hell, they'd go with Living Waters flowing out of their own soul. They would never thirst in Hell. When you get the Revelation of Eternal Security by the Holy Spirit, you will rejoice and glorify God, not sin willfully.

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Born of God mean someone is a child of God. John 5:4 is saying someone who overcomes the world is a child of God. Ephesians 2 Paul is writing to children of God whom he warns later in Ephesians 5 of reverting back to a sinful lifestyle which will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is that they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Romans 11 explains that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again if they repent. James 5:19-20
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” This coincides with what the church has always taught since the beginning brother Johnathan

BNR32FAN said:

So we agree then that someone can lose their salvation for disobedience?

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No.

The Pharisees were arguably the most obedient group of entities, but they had no faith, and were blind to the Word of God Himself.

Once you are His, you stay His. You are born in body once if you are human, and in spirit once again if you resurrect. Those who "fell away" were not part of the election/remnant/witnesses of the Word of God Himself in the first place. And, I mean falling away in God's terms, not man; most of us are too emotional and fickle to understand patience and forgiveness on a cosmic scale.

BNR32FAN said:

Born of God mean someone is a child of God. John 5:4 is saying someone who overcomes the world is a child of God. Ephesians 2 Paul is writing to children of God whom he warns later in Ephesians 5 of reverting back to a sinful lifestyle which will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is that they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Romans 11 explains that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again if they repent. James 5:19-20
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” This coincides with what the church has always taught since the beginning brother Johnathan

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And I'm saying that whoever is Born of God will fear this and continue in the Faith.

BNR32FAN said:

You don’t believe that the Bible is the word of God? All of the scriptures were written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit. God never wrote anything Himself.

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The Word of God is a LIVING Entity that literally chose to sacrifice Himself in order to give us a chance at salvation. It isn't a canonical text, although it can be inspired by Him

When I speak about the Word of God, I mean the Word of God Himself - the One who GAVE Moses the Law (Moses didn't make the law; it is the Law of the Most High God from the Word of God Himself.

So, absolutely the Word of God Himself Trump's any entity created, and one should have a relationship with Him such that you do not need another person, or a canon to know Him and His words. That is (pary of) The New Covenant - very literal, not mostly figurative.

Jonathan Mathews said:

And I'm saying that whoever is Born of God will fear this and continue in the Faith.

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There’s two way a person can look at eternal security. I think perhaps we are looking at it from different perspectives. One way of looking at eternal security is by seeing those who are written in the book of life and another way is to see those who are on the path to being written in the book of life but stray off the path and never repent. The book of life was written according to God’s foreknowledge before creation. It will not be edited. In that aspect those who are written in the book of life are eternally saved. God has foreseen that they will not stray from the path and they will endure to the end. But what has God foreseen? He has already seen the choices we have made, are currently making, and will make in the future. Because we have free will we ultimately decide what God had already foreseen by the choices we make. We are in control of our destiny and fate. We have at any given moment the ability to become children of God or sons of disobedience. In this aspect a person who is on the path to salvation can stray from that path and lose the salvation he would’ve received had he stayed on the path. Hence they were saved but lost their salvation.

Kaon said:

No.

The Pharisees were arguably the most obedient group of entities, but they had no faith, and were blind to the Word of God Himself.

Once you are His, you stay His. You are born in body once if you are human, and in spirit once again if you resurrect. Those who "fell away" were not part of the election/remnant/witnesses of the Word of God Himself in the first place. And, I mean falling away in God's terms, not man; most of us are too emotional and fickle to understand patience and forgiveness on a cosmic scale.

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I disagree friend. Perhaps some were but for the most part their hearts were not filled with love but instead self righteousness and arrogance. They did not show mercy and they were corrupted by power and greed.

Kaon said:

The Word of God is a LIVING Entity that literally chose to sacrifice Himself in order to give us a chance at salvation. It isn't a canonical text, although it can be inspired by Him

When I speak about the Word of God, I mean the Word of God Himself - the One who GAVE Moses the Law (Moses didn't make the law; it is the Law of the Most High God from the Word of God Himself.

So, absolutely the Word of God Himself Trump's any entity created, and one should have a relationship with Him such that you do not need another person, or a canon to know Him and His words. That is (pary of) The New Covenant - very literal, not mostly figurative.

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The Word (Jesus) hand picked Paul, James, and John and commanded them to spread the gospel. Did He choose the wrong people to spread His message?

BNR32FAN said:

“Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-38‬

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And you think this means, "Accept Jesus into your heart"?

Monk Brendan said:

And you think this means, "Accept Jesus into your heart"?

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What else does it mean to accept someone into your heart?

Kaon said:

I follow the Word of God Himself; He is the only human I follow.

The NT is the Word of God in part, because no words can be put in books the things the Word of God has said. I do not follow canon or doctrine of men, even if those men do NOT contradict the Word of God.

Who do you follow? The Word of God Himself said He is the way, Truth and Life. He didn't say any of the disciples were, nor the prophets.

People really need to understand and decide if they follow dogma and men, or if they follow the Word of God Himself.

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Suffice to say, we certainly agree to disagree.

BNR32FAN said:

What else does it mean to accept someone into your heart?

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Where did you get the idea it did mean that?

Love is a choice.

But it's not the same choice as "accepting Jesus into your heart."

While I'm on the subject, nowhere does the Bible say "personal savior" either.

The late Keith Green once opined that when Jesus comes from heaven on His white horse, as Revelation describes, He will have not two but three names written on His thigh.

KING OF KINGS
LORD OF LORDS
PERSONAL SAVIOR

Of course, he was speaking ironically.

And according to Matthew 25, NOBODY will be asked at the Judgement if anyone "accepted Jesus into his heart."

Kaon said:

I didn't write the OP.


I agree. Everyone is responsible for their own spiritual trajectory.

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Sorry, my mistake, and you are absolutely right, men have taken this and confused it to the point some have no idea what to think.

BNR32FAN said:

I disagree friend. Perhaps some were but for the most part their hearts were not filled with love but instead self righteousness and arrogance. They did not show mercy and they were corrupted by power and greed.

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They followed the law better than the disciples before the Redeemer saved them. Of course they still missed the point, because obedience only isn't what saves. But, they had their eyes so focused on the Law that they missed the point of obedience.

You actually have to love your Father enough to want to be obedient to Him - just like a good child is obedient to the parents not because the child believes s/he will get the inheritance, but because they love their parents so much that they find their "rules and oversight" to be a delight, and a comfort! (Good children understand this, even if they realize it after they mature later in life.)

Monk Brendan said:

And you think this means, "Accept Jesus into your heart"?

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Only when Christ fills your heart can you love God with all of it.

BNR32FAN said:

The Word (Jesus) hand picked Paul, James, and John and commanded them to spread the gospel. Did He choose the wrong people to spread His message?

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The Word of God Himself handpicked all of us - those prophets and disciples were the firstfruits of His election. Just like the dead rise first at Resurrection because they are already dead, these He handpicked were chiefs and Properly Ordained leaders of the living human population of believers (Church) by consequence and Providence.

However, they are still humans. The Word of God Himself is the only One who has risen so far; at best, that is the reason He would be Chief"est" of all of the Law and prophecy in all of Creation. No entity has ever died, and resurrected into their own unique spirit because they deserved it except Him - no entity in the Cosmos.

Having said all of that, I also said I do not believe any of the prophets or aforementioned persons actually contradict the Word of God Himself. I am saying our intimacy with the Word of God Himself goes beyond a canonical text, humans and humanity, and even the heavens. He should literally be a spiritual impression on your heart and mind so much so that if it was just you two in the cosmos you would still know and communicate with Him.

Monk Brendan said:

Where did you get the idea it did mean that?

Love is a choice.

But it's not the same choice as "accepting Jesus into your heart."

While I'm on the subject, nowhere does the Bible say "personal savior" either.

The late Keith Green once opined that when Jesus comes from heaven on His white horse, as Revelation describes, He will have not two but three names written on His thigh.

KING OF KINGS
LORD OF LORDS
PERSONAL SAVIOR

Of course, he was speaking ironically.

And according to Matthew 25, NOBODY will be asked at the Judgement if anyone "accepted Jesus into his heart."

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Who have you accepted into your heart that you don’t love and who do you love that you haven’t accepted into your heart?

Why would God ask anyone if they have accepted Jesus into their heart? He’s all knowing.

I think the idea of personal Savior comes from the idea that Jesus didn’t just come to save a bunch of humans He came to adopt family members because He loves each one of us. I really don’t see any problem with the term myself.

Kaon said:

They followed the law better than the disciples before the Redeemer saved them. Of course they still missed the point, because obedience only isn't what saves. But, they had their eyes so focused on the Law that they missed the point of obedience.

You actually have to love your Father enough to want to be obedient to Him - just like a good child is obedient to the parents not because the child believes s/he will get the inheritance, but because they love their parents so much that they find their "rules and oversight" to be a delight, and a comfort! (Good children understand this, even if they realize it after they mature later in life.)

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I don’t know any child who obeys their parents because they love them. Lol usually is based on the undesired punishment that will follow if they misbehave. Now if you mean child as in offspring then I could see that as an adult behavior. An adult son or daughter obeying their parents out of love and respect.