Lutheranism and Anglicanism

In the United States, The Episcopal Church is in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America so while the United States' Anglican representative isn't in communion with all Lutherans, it is with some Lutherans.

The LCMS and the ACNA are in discussions IIRC. Not in communion, however.

The Anglican churches and the Lutheran churches disagree on a number of things such as the Eucharist, Apostolic Succession, and what constitutes an essential doctrine. However, the more important explanation for why the two did not form a single reformed church owes more to the different histories of the two. The Church in England had existed since antiquity whereas Luther was forced by circumstances to start a new one; and the Church of England was, of course, the official church of the land, whereas there was not yet a united German nation at that time in history.

There is communion between some Lutheran churches and the global Anglican communion. More here: Porvoo Communion - Wikipedia.

You might also find it interesting to look into the Church of South India and the Church of North India, which are, I understand, currently in discussions with local Lutheran bodies.

In Australia, where I am, there would be a number of disagreements; the ordination of women being a key one.

Daniel9v9 said:

This is a very shallow way of looking at it, but at least Confessional Lutheranism is more exclusive, whereas Anglicanism is a little broader in doctrine. A silly, but perhaps helpful way of thinking of it is that it could possible to be Lutheran in the Anglican system, but not Anglican in the Lutheran system. But that's not always the case, as confessions and traditions vary.

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I agree, although it may not help our inquirer especially. This is the same point I was referring to when I wrote that the differences between the two include "and what constitutes an essential doctrine." I suppose that was not exactly crystal clear wording, either.

It is the case that Anglicanism allows more latitude of belief on non-essential doctrine whereas Confessional Lutheranism insists on complete agreement as a condition of fellowship.

seeking.IAM said:

In the United States, The Episcopal Church is in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America so while the United States' Anglican representative isn't in communion with all Lutherans, it is with some Lutherans.

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The agreement does not imply that we believe the same things, however, or that we are one administrative body. It just means we agree to share resources for mission and recognize the ministry and sacraments of the other denomination.

My pastor in particular was wary about this move on theological grounds, such as a lack of a coherent doctrine of the Lord's Supper. Many others were deeply offended by the implications of having our bishop submit to ordination by Episcopal bishops. But since the vote was driven primarily by laity, they got what they wanted.

Albion said:

The Anglican churches and the Lutheran churches disagree on a number of things such as the Eucharist, Apostolic Succession, and what constitutes an essential doctrine. However, the more important explanation for why the two did not form a single reformed church owes more to the different histories of the two. The Church in England had existed since antiquity whereas Luther was forced by circumstances to start a new one; and the Church of England was, of course, the official church of the land, whereas there was not yet a united German nation at that time in history.

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Adding on to what you said, the English were ambivalent about the Lutheran reformation from the start. Henry VII even persecuted Lutherans even after he left Rome, and there are English Lutheran martyrs (like Robert Barnes). Luther himself was quite upset with Henry VIII when Robert Barnes was killed for teaching Lutheran doctrine.

Actually, Anglicans do have a coherent and official definition of the Lords Supper, although no one can guarantee that every last communicant understands it or agrees with it, just as is the case with Lutherans or, for that matter, Roman Catholics.

Nevertheless, it was good to bring up the fact that the ELCA-Episcopal Church agreement is far from being an agreement on all points of doctrine or practice.

FireDragon76 said:

Adding on to what you said, the English were ambivalent about the Lutheran reformation from the start. Henry VII even persecuted Lutherans even after he left Rome, and there are English Lutheran martyrs (like Robert Barnes). Luther himself was quite upset with Henry VIII when Robert Barnes was killed for teaching Lutheran doctrine.

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Your complaint is with the Catholic king, Henry VIII, then. That is a part of the history of the nation and the church but is only of passing relevance to the issue presented by the Original Post here, I would think.

Albion said:

Your complaint is with the Catholic king, Henry VIII, then. That is a part of the history of the nation and the church but is only of passing relevance to the issue presented by the Original Post here, I would think.

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That's just an example. England also did not intervene during the Schmalkadic War. Some Puritans tried to press for intervention, but the crown itself was opposed.

There are other things that distinguish us besides early coldness. Anglicans typically were more moralistic and have a history of banning divorce, whereas Lutherans have always considered divorce permissible and generally are wary of moralism. Some Anglicans also practiced and supported iconclasm, something that is foreign to Lutheranism but was common in Reformed churches at one time.

FireDragon76 said:

... Many others were deeply offended by the implications of having our bishop submit to ordination by Episcopal bishops.

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Lest the quote above of "submit" be misunderstood, let me say that when our new Episcopal Bishop was being installed, among the Episcopal Bishops laying on of hands were also Bishops from ELCA. I see it as a two-way street that celebrates our common connection.

TKA_TN said:

The LCMS and the ACNA are in discussions IIRC. Not in communion, however.

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ACNA and NALC have a communion agreement. In my experience the Anglicans are mostly apathetic about it but the NALC folk are more positive.

seeking.IAM said:

Lest the quote above of "submit" be misunderstood, let me say that when our new Episcopal Bishop was being installed, among the Episcopal Bishops laying on of hands were also Bishops from ELCA. I see it as a two-way street that celebrates our common connection.

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Some of our pastors are even ambivalent about that unity, especially if it comes at the expense of the pure preaching of the Gospel.

The ELCA is more theologically conservative than TEC. Somebody like John Shelby Spong simply does not exist in our church. We have our share of wierdness (Herchurch), but not people that have made a career openly mocking the foundational dogmas of the Christian faith.

Personally, I believe TEC gains alot more through this agreement than the ELCA does. We risk wedding ourselves to an ecclessiology that distracts from the Gospel. The squabbles in the Anglican communion are proof enough of that. People vie over who has primacy, not that different from Rome or Orthodoxy. In the Lutheran world, our understanding of the Church is primarily local. We are wary of the notion that the Church is a divine incarnation of sorts. The Church is not the Gospel. As the Rev. Nadia Bolz-Weber puts it, "We are the Church. And we will disappoint you".

Being a small, insignificant religious denomination in America? That really should not concern us, that anxiety comes from a Theology of Glory that would judge things by appearances rather than their substance. We should just be encouraging our people to let their lights shine, rather than seeking political influence through power brokering.

In fairness, Spong is something of a renegade - the exception not the rule. Those that Judge TEC by Spong miss the bigger picture.

seeking.IAM said:

In fairness, Spong is something of a renegade - the exception not the rule. Those that Judge TEC by Spong miss the bigger picture.

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The bigger picture seems to be increasingly an institution that is comfortable being a "respectable" and "decent" place for bourgeois morality, to be blunt. As Roman Williams half-joked, Anglicans often seem to believe in justification by good taste.

Spong's narcissistic iconclasm, rooted in a sense of self-importance, is just not something Lutherans jive with all that much, even the most liberal among us. While Herchurch in San Francisco engages in some very "creative" contextual ministry, to put it charitably, they don't go around calling the rest of us fools and fundamentalists for simply believing what Christians have always believed.

For us, the confession of faith comes first, not manmade institutions. It is the rock that Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against. The Church must be built on that, and that is the only true basis of unity.

FireDragon76 said:

The bigger picture seems to be increasingly an institution that is comfortable being a "respectable" and "decent" place for bourgeois morality, to be blunt. .

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Good gravy! Considering that everyone from the religious writers to the man on the street know that TEC is one of the most trendy and unconventional church bodies in the USA, the above statement is amazing.

Albion said:

Good gravy! Considering that everyone from the religious writers to the man on the street know that TEC is one of the most trendy and unconventional church bodies in the USA, the above statement is amazing.

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For the social cliques that Episcopalians tend to circulate in, they really aren't that unconventional.

FireDragon76 said:

For the social cliques that Episcopalians tend to circulate in, they really aren't that unconventional.

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That's called damning with faint praise, I believe. But as Christian churches go, TEC certainly is what I an the religious world in general knows it to be. That of course refers to the church itself, not to every member, many of whom suffer quietly while their leaders go off one deep end after another.