Tongues & the cessationists.

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swordsman1

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M. F. Sadler - The First and Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2014)
We now come to the exposition of the chapter, which presents no difficulty if the reader bears in mind that the gift of tongues was used by the Corinthians in a wrong way. It was given that the foreigners outside the pale of the Church might be witnesses of a miracle by which they might understand that the power of the Creator of the human mind was put forth on behalf of Christianity ; so that the proper place for its use was where men of all nations flocked together for commerce or any other purpose. Instead of this, it was used in the Church where all spake the same tongue,
and no one could verify it.
2. " He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him." This evidently implies that what he spoke was not unintelligible jargon, but perfectly intelligible if there were persons present who could
understand it. Whatever was spoken was, so far as the action of the Holy Spirit was concerned, intended to be understood. Edwards writes : " It was a conspicuous feature of the gift, that the tongues were unintelligible. Could the Apostle say of any man that speaks in a foreign language, that he speaks not to men but to God ? " Certainly, we answer, if any man prays to God in a language not
known to the people about him, he speaks only to God. He may do such a thing perfectly blamelessly, but it is of no use to the people present, and so the Apostle discourages it if there be no interpretation or interpreter.

Dr. Thomas Constable - Expository Notes on 1 Corinthians (2003)
Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) by itself is not edifying to other people, but prophecy is. This statement again raises a question about what speaking in tongues involved.
On the day of Pentecost people spoke in tongues and other people who knew the languages spoken received edification because they heard of God"s mighty deeds in their native languages ( Acts 2:1-11). Interpreters were unnecessary on that occasion (cf. Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6). Evidently what was taking place in the Corinthian church was different from what took place on the day of Pentecost. In Corinth, and perhaps in other early churches, people spoke in tongues among people who did not understand the languages. An interpreter was necessary for those present to understand and benefit from what the tongues-speaker was saying in a strange language ( 1 Corinthians 14:5; 1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul used "tongues" and "languages" interchangeably in this passage (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:2; 1 Corinthians 14:10-11; 1 Corinthians 14:13, et al.). This is an important proof that tongues were languages.
Some Christians have suggested another distinction. They have claimed that the tongues in Acts were foreign languages but the tongues in Corinthians were ecstatic utterances, not languages but unintelligible speech. [Note: E.g, Robertson and Plummer, pp301 , 306.] There is no basis for this distinction in the Greek text, however. The terminology used is the same, and the passages make good sense if we take tongues as languages wherever they occur.

Riggs & Reed - Epistles to the Corinthians
He had spoken mysteries, i.e., Divine secrets, which the church could not understand and, for this reason, he makes no sweeping condemnation of this singular gift.

HENRY E. JACOBS - ANNOTATIONS ON THE EPISTLES OF PAUL TO I. CORINTHIANS VIl.-XVl
Speaketh not unto men. The gift of tongues, at any rate in the form in which it was known at Corinth, was, therefore, a spiritual privilege, that edified only the speaker. All worship and preaching in a language not understood by the people, fall under the same criticism ; whether it be in a dead language, like the Roman Mass ; or in a language vernacular to a small portion of the congregation, but not intelligible to its younger members, as where the German or Swedish language is retained in congregations whose children have been in language Anglicized ; or where the preacher uses the language of the schools and of books, instead of adapting himself to the capacity of his hearers. The greatness of a preacher depends upon his ability to reach and move the greatest number of people with the message of the Gospel. So also with our prayers, hymns, and orders of service. No man understandeth, viz. unless there be one present endowed with the gift of the interpretation of tongues (ver. 5 ; ch. 12 : 10).

J J Lias - The First Epistle to the Corinthians (1892)
2. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue the word unknown is not in the original. The word translated tongue signifies a human language in ch. xiii. 1. Cf. Rev. xiii. 7, xiv. 6, xvii. 15.

J J Lias - Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges: 1 Corinthians (1905)
2. γλώσσῃ. The context shews the necessity of the ‘unknown’ of the A.V.
οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ. Because the language is not the language of those to whom he is speaking, and therefore what he says is hidden from them.


John Edgar McFadyen - The epistles to the Corinthians (1911)
For he that speaks with a tongue does not speak to men-for nobody understands (lit. hears) him-but to God: if nobody understands him, then obviously he has no power directly to edify the congregation; but in spirit only, and without the participation of his understanding (cf. vv. 14, 15) he speaks mysteries, which may, indeed, subsequently be interpreted by himself (ver. 5) or by someone else (ver. 28) but which, till they are interpreted, are unintelligible, and therefore useless to the church.

James Macknight - Commentary on the Apostolic Epistles, Vol 2, 1 & 2 Corinthians (1835)
Ver. 2. He who speaketh in a foreign language. The word yA&xrc-*, tongue so often used in this chapter, plainly means foreign language, (see ver. 19.) in which sense it was used, by the Greek writers, as Eustathius on Iliad A. quoted by Hammond on 1 Cor. xiv. 28. affirms.

John Locke - Paraphrase and notes on the Epistles of St. Paul to the Galatians, I and II Corinthians, Romans and Ephesians (1824)
For he, that speaks in an unknown tongue, speaks to God alone, but not to men: for nobody understands him; the things he utters, by the Spirit, in an unknown tongue, are mysteries, things not understood, by those who hear them.

Huldrych Zwingli - Annotations on 1 Corinthians 14
It happens that some people utter mysteries in foreign tongues that not even they themselves understand, or at least they pay little attention to what their words mean. Now since they do not provide fruit to themselves or to anyone else, are they not spewing forth only empty wind? But even if a prophet completely understands and pays attention to what he is saying, and yet those hearing do not understand anything he says, then how does this build up the church? Therefore to prophesy, that is, to reveal the meaning of Scripture to the people, is certainly a distinguished office and very useful, for it builds up. Therefore, unless the one who speaks in tongues at the same time prophesies, little benefit will result; but if the person who possesses the gift of tongues also has the gift of prophecy, then great good will result.

Wolfgang Musculus: Commentary on 1 Corinthians 14:2.11
Note here that Paul does not say “not everyone understands him," but “no one understands him." It is possible when you speak German to a German audience that you are not understood by everyone because of various dialects, as would occur if you spoke in Low German to people who understood High German. In this case, even if everyone could not understand you, nevertheless most could, so that you would not be speaking entirely in vain. But if a person spoke a completely foreign and unknown tongue in church, since no one could understand it, he would not be speaking to people but to God. Such is the case in German churches when everything is spoken and sung in Latin, which is so foreign to the German language that nothing of it can be understood by a native German. ... This is what the Roman Church has ordained, whereby Satan has wished directly to contradict this apostolic teaching and prevent the building up of Christ's churches.

Tilemann Hesshus: Explication of 1 Corinthians 14
“The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies, edifies the church.” This is the same thing that Paul has said above. People who use a foreign language serve themselves, for since they understand the language, they are able to instruct themselves, confirm themselves in the faith, console themselves, and be encouraged. But the church is harvesting no fruit from it, for she cannot be instructed, nor aroused, nor encouraged to take hold of consolation by a language that is not understood.

Rhoderick D Ice - The Bible Study New Testament (1974)
In strange tongues. Because the gift of languages gave the most chance to show off, the Corinthians rated it the highest. Because they considered this gift the most honored, those who had it would show off in the public meetings by speaking long and loud in foreign languages (strange tongues). Others who were much better qualified to instruct the group were forced to remain silent. Sometimes many would speak in strange tongues at the same time, trying to shout down the others, creating confusion. Does not speak to men. No one could understand what they were saying.
 
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Cessationists don't "tar and feather" anyone. They just point out the truth of the matter according to scripture and church history.
The Medieval Catholic Church had the same attitude but they did a little more than just point out "the truth"! (What makes me think that I am being sucked into a debating vortex here? :) )

Have you got the quote for that?

And a quote for that as well?
It's Saturday, my blob out day, and I just can't be bothered.

I believe that is a Pentecostal myth, unless you have the quote where he recants his cessationist views?
I actually read it in a standard church history text. But then, the author was not Cessationist in his views, like many of the church historians. I wonder if much of church history is on the level of "fake news"? Who know? History is usually written by the dominant party, so, who really knows?
Edwards was indeed a cessationist, and as this quote shows he tells us the reason why the charismatic gifts ceased...
Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits p29
“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given 'in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased”['quote]

He was merely abiding by the Presbyterian doctrinal position of his time. The Methodists were the "Charismatics" of his time, and he would not have agreed with them in the same way that many Evangelical Christians would be disagreeing with Charismatics today.​

We regularly see continuists condemning cessationists to Hell by accusing them of blasphemy of the Spirit (another scare tactic to try and get rid of us), but I have never seen cessationists condemning continuists, nor "seeking to control and manipulate" them.
No doubt. I think that anyone who tries to tell God the Holy Spirit how He should conduct Himself is putting himself in a uncertain position with the Lord.
There are two types of Cessationists: those who Cessationist in their personal belief but don't go tar and feathering Continuists, and those who are not only Cessationists in their own belief but take great pains to impose their own beliefs on others through their teaching.

There are those who believe that the gifts have ceased, because church history is quite clear that they did cease in the mainline established church. But there were movements through the centuries that manifested the gifts, but they were persecuted, members killed and literature destroyed so that we have information about them only through their enemies in the established church. They would have a sincere and honest belief, but would be open to allowing the Holy Spirit to do whatever He wills to do. They would take the attitude that it is "not our cup of tea", but they wouldn't judge or condemn those who had an alternative view.

I believe that those who hold a Cessationist view, and make it their principal ministry to judge and condemn Continuists are motivated by a wrong spirit and not the spirit of Christ. I disagree with Cessationists, as you know, and I won't mince my words about those who are in danger of insulting God the Holy Spirit by trying to instruct Him about how He should manifest Himself through Christian believers.

I don't think that those on this forum with Cessationist views, (including you) are motivated by a wrong spirit. I know that through interactions with you and Major1.

I made the comment about insulting the Holy Spirit, because if the Holy Spirit has come with His gifts for today as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, then to throw His gifts back in His face is an insult and a disrespect for Him and Jesus who sent Him. I believe that those who set up websites and write articles judging and condemning all Pentecostals and Charismatics as fakes and frauds deserve to be rebuked and told that they are operating from a wrong spirit.
 
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A few more commentaries on 1 Cor 14:2...
You left out Gordon Fee in his commentary on 1 Corinthians.
The commentaries you have quote just support my point that most commentators have a Cessationist theology and so their commentary on 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 would be influenced by that. So you have given an unbalanced set of quotes, giving a one-sided view.

What is needed is to have the same number of quotes from commentators with a Continuance theology to give an overall balanced set of commentaries giving both sides of the story.

As a workplace union delegate, I dealt with a number of staff complaints against the conduct of management in some incidents. So, when I got the staff member's story first, I was influenced by his or her account of the incident. But when I got the manager to tell her side of the story, I got quite a different picture which told of aspect of behaviour that the complainant left out. So I then had a more balanced view of the incident. Then I got the staff member and manager together with me as mediator, and the issue was resolved. But if I just had accepted the complainant's story, or just the manager's story on its own, I could have done more harm than good and accused either party unfairly and inaccurately.

In a court case, there are witnesses for the prosecution, and witnesses for the defence, so the judge or jury can get a balanced picture of what actually happened in order to come back with a fair verdict.

If you were a witness in a court case over whether Cessationism or Continuance were true, and all you did was present evidence that supported Cessationism, the Judge could very well ask, "Where is the evidence for Continuance?" If that evidence could not be provided, the court hearing would either be adjourned for that evidence to be presented, or the judge could dismiss the case through lack of balancing evidence.
 
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swordsman1

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You left out Gordon Fee in his commentary on 1 Corinthians.

Ok, Just for you Oscar...

Gordon Fee - The First Epistle to the Corinthians
2–4
This argument may best be analyzed in light of its structure. With two balanced pairs (verses 2–3) Paul first contrasts tongues and prophecy as to who is addressed (in bold) and therefore as to their basic purpose (in italics); the second pair (verse 4) then interprets the first pair in terms of who is being edified. Thus:

For
a) The one who speaks in tongues speaks not to people, but to God Indeed, no one understands him; he speaks mysteries by the Spirit.

On the other hand,

b) The one who prophesies speaks to people, edification, encouragement, comfort.


a) The one who speaks in tongues edifies himself;

on the other hand,

b) The one who prophesies edifies the church

Paul’s emphasis and concern is unmistakable, the edification of the church. The one activity, tongues, edifies the speaker but not the church because it is addressed to God and “no one understands him.” The other activity, prophecy, edifies the church because it is addressed to people and speaks “edification, encouragement and comfort” to them.
Although trying to cool their ardor for congregational tongues-speaking, Paul does not disparage the gift itself; rather, he seeks to put it in its rightful place. Positively, he says three things about speaking in tongues, which are best understood in light of the further discussion on prayer and praise in verses 13–17:
(1) Such a person is “speaking to God,” that is, he or she is communing with God by the Spirit. Although it is quite common in Pentecostal groups to refer to a “message in tongues,” there seems to be no evidence in Paul for such terminology. The tongues-speaker is not addressing fellow believers but God (cf. verses 13–14, 28), meaning therefore that Paul understands the phenomenon basically to be prayer and praise.
(2) The content of such utterances is “mysteries” spoken “by the Spirit.” It is possible that “mysteries” means something similar to its usage in 13:2; more likely it carries here the sense of that which lies outside the understanding, both for the speaker and the hearer. After all, “mysteries” in 13:2 refers to the ways of God that are being revealed by the Spirit to his people; such “mysteries” would scarcely need to be spoken back to God.
(3) Such speech by the Spirit is further described in verse 4 as edifying to the speaker. This has sometimes been called “self-edification” and therefore viewed as pejorative.....

Although Fee doesn't say tongues is human languages (he would be defrocked as a Pentecostal minister if he did), neither does he say that tongues is a non-human language. There are very few commentators to do, even Continuist ones...simply because that is reading something into the text that isn't there.

The commentaries you have quote just support my point that most commentators have a Cessationist theology and so their commentary on 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 would be influenced by that. So you have given an unbalanced set of quotes, giving a one-sided view.

What is needed is to have the same number of quotes from commentators with a Continuance theology to give an overall balanced set of commentaries giving both sides of the story.

As a workplace union delegate, I dealt with a number of staff complaints against the conduct of management in some incidents. So, when I got the staff member's story first, I was influenced by his or her account of the incident. But when I got the manager to tell her side of the story, I got quite a different picture which told of aspect of behaviour that the complainant left out. So I then had a more balanced view of the incident. Then I got the staff member and manager together with me as mediator, and the issue was resolved. But if I just had accepted the complainant's story, or just the manager's story on its own, I could have done more harm than good and accused either party unfairly and inaccurately.

In a court case, there are witnesses for the prosecution, and witnesses for the defence, so the judge or jury can get a balanced picture of what actually happened in order to come back with a fair verdict.

If you were a witness in a court case over whether Cessationism or Continuance were true, and all you did was present evidence that supported Cessationism, the Judge could very well ask, "Where is the evidence for Continuance?" If that evidence could not be provided, the court hearing would either be adjourned for that evidence to be presented, or the judge could dismiss the case through lack of balancing evidence.

If they did that they would be very poor commentators and would have been unable to achieve their status and reputation as scholars that they each have. The aim of exegesis to the read the meaning out of the text - that's what the word exegesis means. As opposed to eisegesis - reading one's theological biases into the text.
 
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Ok, Just for you Oscar...

Gordon Fee - The First Epistle to the Corinthians
2–4
This argument may best be analyzed in light of its structure. With two balanced pairs (verses 2–3) Paul first contrasts tongues and prophecy as to who is addressed (in bold) and therefore as to their basic purpose (in italics); the second pair (verse 4) then interprets the first pair in terms of who is being edified. Thus:

For
a) The one who speaks in tongues speaks not to people, but to God Indeed, no one understands him; he speaks mysteries by the Spirit.

On the other hand,

b) The one who prophesies speaks to people, edification, encouragement, comfort.


a) The one who speaks in tongues edifies himself;

on the other hand,

b) The one who prophesies edifies the church

Paul’s emphasis and concern is unmistakable, the edification of the church. The one activity, tongues, edifies the speaker but not the church because it is addressed to God and “no one understands him.” The other activity, prophecy, edifies the church because it is addressed to people and speaks “edification, encouragement and comfort” to them.
Although trying to cool their ardor for congregational tongues-speaking, Paul does not disparage the gift itself; rather, he seeks to put it in its rightful place. Positively, he says three things about speaking in tongues, which are best understood in light of the further discussion on prayer and praise in verses 13–17:
(1) Such a person is “speaking to God,” that is, he or she is communing with God by the Spirit. Although it is quite common in Pentecostal groups to refer to a “message in tongues,” there seems to be no evidence in Paul for such terminology. The tongues-speaker is not addressing fellow believers but God (cf. verses 13–14, 28), meaning therefore that Paul understands the phenomenon basically to be prayer and praise.
(2) The content of such utterances is “mysteries” spoken “by the Spirit.” It is possible that “mysteries” means something similar to its usage in 13:2; more likely it carries here the sense of that which lies outside the understanding, both for the speaker and the hearer. After all, “mysteries” in 13:2 refers to the ways of God that are being revealed by the Spirit to his people; such “mysteries” would scarcely need to be spoken back to God.
(3) Such speech by the Spirit is further described in verse 4 as edifying to the speaker. This has sometimes been called “self-edification” and therefore viewed as pejorative.....

Although Fee doesn't say tongues is human languages (he would be defrocked as a Pentecostal minister if he did), neither does he say that tongues is a non-human language. There are very few commentators to do, even Continuist ones...simply because that is reading something into the text that isn't there.



If they did that they would be very poor commentators and would have been unable to achieve their status and reputation as scholars that they each have. The aim of exegesis to the read the meaning out of the text - that's what the word exegesis means. As opposed to eisegesis - reading one's theological biases into the text.
Thanks for that! Actually Gordon Fee doesn't actually disprove what others have said about tongues and other spiritual gifts. He just adds his point of view based on what he sees in Scripture.
 
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