Almighty God the Son, second person of the Godhead also called Michael

Thistle0Sifter said:

"So your saying YHWH is really called Michael ?"
nope, rather, what I've said is only and exactly what I've said (stated).
Instead:
Yahweh is the Son ONLY when fully in His role as warrior-commander of the angelic host-army of God.

Try this:
Revelation 12:7
PLUS:
Revelation 22:8-9
and
Joshua 5:13-15
But what really did it for me was this:
Angels: Their Nature and Ministry

God also never said explicitly to not commit abortions (which means as early as immediately after conception) but believers can "figure" this out with an infinitesimal modicum of effort.
Yes?

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Still no scriptures that say YHWH Calls Himself Michael.


Jesus was called The Angel of the Lord before He became flesh.



This is not to be confused with the created angel Michael.




JLB

JLB777 said:

Still no scriptures that say YHWH Calls Himself Michael.
Jesus was called The Angel of the Lord before He became flesh.
This is not to be confused with the created angel Michael.
JLB

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Then you could say Christ said nothing against homosexuality,
or against abortion, or against child rape, or that that it what not a sin to kill the Son of Man because that *specifically* was not prohibited.
It just requires the assemblage of the sort:
statement 1: a is b
statement 2: b is c
conclusion: a is c

Thistle0Sifter said:

Then you could say Christ said nothing against homosexuality,

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Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10




JLB

Thistle0Sifter said:

or against abortion, or against child rape

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But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

JLB777 said:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

JLB

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YES exactly
You misunderstood me
I was saying you CANT say Christ said nothing about those things because it wasnt explicitly stated in scripture: "Christ then spake: *SPECIFIC THING(s) IS(are) WICKEDNESS*" but rather we can, with 2 neurons together, see that they are as plainly stated as any of the 10 commandments.

By which means we can logically also compute (with a little more effort) that Christ is Michael.

Thistle0Sifter said:

YES exactly
You misunderstood me
I was saying you CANT say Christ said nothing about those things because it wasnt explicitly stated in scripture: "Christ then spake: *SPECIFIC THING(s) IS(are) WICKEDNESS*" but rather we can, with 2 neurons together, see that they are as plainly stated as any of the 10 commandments.

By which means we can logically also compute (with a little more effort) that Christ is Michael.

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I listed specific scriptures that dealt with the specific sins you mentioned.


There’s no need to assume anything.



JLB

Thistle0Sifter said:

YES exactly
You misunderstood me
I was saying you CANT say Christ said nothing about those things because it wasnt explicitly stated in scripture: "Christ then spake: *SPECIFIC THING(s) IS(are) WICKEDNESS*" but rather we can, with 2 neurons together, see that they are as plainly stated as any of the 10 commandments.

By which means we can logically also compute (with a little more effort) that Christ is Michael.

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There is no logic making that jump.

God is One (Deut 6.4). So if Jesus is Michael, so is the Father.

Dave-W said:

There is no logic making that jump.

God is One (Deut 6.4). So if Jesus is Michael, so is the Father.

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By that logic, then the Father is the Son and vice versa... when the Bible states that the Father and Son are one, it is in Divinity, Purpose and Righteousness.

Mmmm - I believe it is much deeper than that. What you are saying comes close to bordering on tri-theism.

Dave-W said:

Mmmm - I believe it is much deeper than that. What you are saying comes close to bordering on tri-theism.

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Dave,
I don't get what you're saying. If the Father and the Son are not separate individuals then they are the same person and so is the Holy Spirit. How could the Father send the Son and not be a separate person? How could Jesus truthfully say He did only what His Father told Him to do? Why would Jesus have spent entire nights in prayer to His Father if they are not separate individuals? Jesus would have been talking to Himself. And how only the Father now the timing of the second coming? The only way that is possible is if the Father and Son are separate individuals.

Gary - you are over-thinking it. If you try to get any closer than One God, Three persons, you run afoul of any of a number of ancient heresies.

Remember: Everything our Lord did was an example to us. He prayed all night because we need to do that sometimes.

Dave-W said:

Remember: Everything our Lord did was an example to us. He prayed all night because we need to do that sometimes.

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This gets even stranger when it is pondered from your point of view. So, Jesus was essentially praying to Himself as He and His Father are the same person, so we need to pray to ourselves? That's what you say Jesus did, and since He is our example we need to pray to ourselves also.

JLB777 said:

I listed specific scriptures that dealt with the specific sins you mentioned.


There’s no need to assume anything.



JLB

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Ummm.... It's only by logic that these sins can be derived from the 10 commandments. They are not explicitly mentioned in the law of God. Yes, they are against God's law, but only when extrapolated by logic. It's the same thing with other facets of the 10 commandments. The 9th commandment says only that we must not bear false witness against our neighbor. There are many ways of lying that do not involve bearing a false witness against another person, yet the commandment itself does not state that. It's only possible to condemn all lines of dishonesty from the 9th commandment through logic.

Further back in this thread I showed that the Bible explicitly called the pre-incarnate Jesus an angel in Judges 13. No one has disputed what i said. By logic, since the Bible has referred to Jesus it is no leap to understand that Michael is a reference to Jesus from all the Bible's references to Michael for Michael takes actions that only the Son of God will take.

Dave-W said:

Mmmm - I believe it is much deeper than that. What you are saying comes close to bordering on tri-theism.

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Couldn't be... I don't ascribe to a tri anything. I believe as all the pioneers of our movement did....

Dave-W said:

Gary - you are over-thinking it. If you try to get any closer than One God, Three persons, you run afoul of any of a number of ancient heresies.

Remember: Everything our Lord did was an example to us. He prayed all night because we need to do that sometimes.

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Read Psalm 22 and see how the Lord was tormented with trial and temptation... that's why He prayed the Spirit of the Father to gain the victory. The same as we are to do....

Btw, why is it the greater Christian world considers anything other than the Nicene Creed as "heresy? It was a compromise type of declaration to appease all sides. Also interesting is we have no actual records of what the Arians believed... only what the Catholic Church tell us they did. I wouldn't stake a doctrinal belief on something so removed from scripture.

Gary K said:

So, Jesus was essentially praying to Himself as He and His Father are the same person,

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same God, not same Person.

Dave-W said:

same God, not same Person.

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Then they are separate individuals. You've just admitted what both ECR and I have been saying. Separate persons. Same attributes of character and purpose. One in character and purpose. Otherwise this subject leads to all kinds of confusion and weirdness.

Proverbs shows this quite explicitly:

Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

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It's like what Jesus says of the Holy Spirit:

John 9:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
:

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Same character. Same purpose. Separate individuals. The individual personhood of each member of the Godhood is undeniable in the Bible. The Godhood can't be reasonably understood in any other rational way.

While we can't understand everything about God we can understand His character, His personhood, His love. We can trust all three members of the Godhood to act in the same way under the same circumstances as they are united in one in character and purpose.

Gary K said:

Then they are separate individuals.

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Yes and no.

It is not that simple.

Dave-W said:

Yes and no.

It is not that simple.

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Now who is overthinking? You keep on saying the same thing over and over but never explaining what you mean.

Gary K said:

Now who is overthinking? You keep on saying the same thing over and over but never explaining what you mean.

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Sorry - but to get more specific than what I have said ends up in heresy. How that works; One God, Three Persons, Seven Spirits; is beyond our comprehension and IMO God does not intend us to understand it in this existence.