Over all Look At the Book Of Daniel

DaDad

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Hi Dadad
Wow that is special.......Not sure why you are on to me about this. I never said anything about five and four that was someone else....................Personally I have always believed the Feet of Clay and Iron were not the same kingdom as the legs of Iron. However I have always seen that as the deadly wound healed. But please feel free to judge me and try and belittle me any time you wish

OP:
Just The Facts said:
... Daniel is still puzzled by the four great Kingdoms. ...

There are FIVE kingdoms, for which the FIFTH empire of Clay is call a "divided kingdom". But if you've changed your mind and believe that there indeed are FIVE world empires, then WE'RE GOOD!

And now that we can BOTH agree that FIVE ≠ FOUR, then the Chapter 7 Beasts MUST represent the participants of the "divided kingdom". So thanks in advance for changing your mind on that! :)

So can we now address the "seventy weeks" which you assert are 490 years? -- Young, Keil, & Kliefoth ALL agree that they DON'T equal 490 years. The literal TEXT doesn't support that premise:

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[1]

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 218


And finally, the 11th Chapter has no "gaps". This is a "literary convention" (i.e., a "lie) which is used when Scripture and History do not align with the "commentator". So the "commentator" throws out the TWO, and inserts his imagination.


So are we good?
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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DaDad

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DaDad said:
But for the sake of argument, here's what Jesus said, (being that Jesus is the WORD):

Daniel 2:35 ... the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE
Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

No, it is not five kingdoms. ...

Yeah, I've heard the assertions, but I'm still waiting for the explanation:

What is the Intelligent Design of the sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE?

Was GOD distracted when HE wrote the sequence? Was it simply "random" or do men misrepresent the Intelligent Design of GOD?


DaDad
 
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Rodron

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Hi Rodon

The bottom line is false doctrine started right after Jesus death ...some argue during his life. Consider this....... many of these doctrines have a direct tie to perceived salvation. What I mean by that is many came to Christianity based on a belief in a particular view of prophecy. Whether it is Israel being founded .....the perceived evil of the Catholic Church. If that belief turns out to be un true what does that mean to this person with regard to the rest of what they have come to believe. ie if that was not true maybe all is a lie. The most important thing to remember in all these discussions is Jesus does not Judge based on your understanding of Prophecy.
Hey, Just The Facts
Hi Dougg

I agree with your above statement. I think where we differ is is the Beast in Rv13 as a Kingdom I believe you see it as the AC not a kingdom. So I see the clay and Iron as The Holy Roman Empire so still fourth Kingdom just honuring a God their Fathers did not know.
Hi Rodon

The bottom line is false doctrine started right after Jesus death ...some argue during his life. Consider this....... many of these doctrines have a direct tie to perceived salvation. What I mean by that is many came to Christianity based on a belief in a particular view of prophecy. Whether it is Israel being founded .....the perceived evil of the Catholic Church. If that belief turns out to be un true what does that mean to this person with regard to the rest of what they have come to believe. ie if that was not true maybe all is a lie. The most important thing to remember in all these discussions is Jesus does not Judge based on your understanding of Prophecy.
Hi Dougg

I agree with your above statement. I think where we differ is is the Beast in Rv13 as a Kingdom I believe you see it as the AC not a kingdom. So I see the clay and Iron as The Holy Roman Empire so still fourth Kingdom just honuring a God their Fathers did not know.

Hey just for facts

Thank you, I know we are not judged on prophecy, unless we teach what is not true. I think I know what you are saying and I would never knowingly put a stumbling block in front of a brother or sister. To me truth is light and doctrines should truth. If we are looking for something and it does not come, it will have a tragic result on our faith and make us an easy target for the adversary. That was why Jesus said; Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be”. Matt.24: 26-27 What if they go forth. Rodron
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi Dadad

I have never seen it any different. I see it as a different Kingdom because it changes it religion and its focus. It is the same territory.

Daniel is not 490 years because some commentator said so it is 490 years because the Jews punishment is multiplied 7 times for failure to repent in exile. It is all laid out in Levitcus 26: Original punishment was 70 years Failure to repent ...........times that by 7 so 70 X 7=490

You are not the first person that I have talked to that believes Daniel 8 and 11 are future. As well as Daniel 7: Your arguments against Daniel 11 being fulfilled in the Seleucid Kingdom are not compelling enough you are picking on small points IE it takes 40 years to be four kingdoms etc. I do not feel that out weighs allot of other connections.

Having said that I am always open to new Ideas and different views. I do not believe myself or anyone else in here understands the whole truth.

So I will read what you write and look for the truth you say you speak. Peace to you my Brother in Christ
 
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Douggg

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Yeah, I've heard the assertions, but I'm still waiting for the explanation:
There is no reason to explain anything, i.e. your number 1,2,3,4,5 as five kingdoms, that is not in the text of the bible. The text is self explanatory. The fourth kingdom in power when the Kingdom of God comes here to earth.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
 
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DaDad

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.. your number 1,2,3,4,5 as five kingdoms, ...
They're not MY numbers, -- they're GOD's numbers:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,5,3,2,1 = FIVE

But I can certainly understand that you would disregard Scripture in deference to your doctrines. It happens all the time, -- not so much with GOD; but with men ...

DaDad
 
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claninja

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They're not MY numbers, -- they're GOD's numbers:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,5,3,2,1 = FIVE

Actually they are your numbers. I see 5 elements there, but the numbers seem to be your addition. unless you can provide scripture that specifically states "fifth kingdom"?

the 2nd kingdom is listed as "another kingdom". The 3rd kingdom is listed as "third kingdom". The fourth kingdom is listed as "fourth kingdom"

Daniel 2:28-30 you are the head of gold. Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these

***Surely if there is a 5th kingdom, we would find the term either "another kingdom" or "fifth kingdom" after the 4th kingdom is mentioned. But we don't.

We are told why the 4th kingdom is made of iron: BECAUSE iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things.
Daniel 2:40 there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these

Iron is the 4th kingdom. There is iron in the feet and toes. Thus the 4th kingdom is present in the feet and toes. So what is the clay?

Daniel 2:43 you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay

But I can certainly understand that you would disregard Scripture in deference to your doctrines. It happens all the time, -- not so much with GOD; but with men ...

Pot calling the kettle black, as you seem to be doing the same thing.
 
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DaDad

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Actually they are your numbers ...

Ok, you caught me. I got up to 88 mph and went back ~2,500 years in time so that I could help Daniel construct the sentence which provided the sequence:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

There's no fooling you.

And to top it off, there really isn't a Fifth "divided kingdom" as evidenced by the THREE Superpowers and the United Nations. Once again I failed in my quest to "report history" as such, because you saw through all the fake history books and all the news reports which I contrived. I did my best!

But you're too smart for me. -- As in Homer's: "I am so smart, I am so smart, S M R T, S M R T, ...".


-- Too SMRT --,
DD
 
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DaDad

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Hi Dadad

I have never seen it any different. I see it as a different Kingdom because it changes it religion and its focus. It is the same territory.

Daniel is not 490 years because some commentator said so it is 490 years because the Jews punishment is multiplied 7 times for failure to repent in exile. It is all laid out in Levitcus 26: Original punishment was 70 years Failure to repent ...........times that by 7 so 70 X 7=490

You are not the first person that I have talked to that believes Daniel 8 and 11 are future. As well as Daniel 7: Your arguments against Daniel 11 being fulfilled in the Seleucid Kingdom are not compelling enough you are picking on small points IE it takes 40 years to be four kingdoms etc. I do not feel that out weighs allot of other connections.

Having said that I am always open to new Ideas and different views. I do not believe myself or anyone else in here understands the whole truth.

So I will read what you write and look for the truth you say you speak. Peace to you my Brother in Christ

Hey JTF,
I spend about half my time at the cabin getting it ready for future events, and can easily miss the Forum conversations, -- so I'm sorry I only now saw this Post!

RE: 490
Certainly imaginations can justify ANYTHING. But in this case, we should use the Literal Text which does not support the premise as proposed by your imagination.

Re: Dan. 8 & 11
Actually the Prophecies of Daniel are for the 1900's (as implied by the Angel), and start as early as WWI, which is pretty much in agreement with J.R. Church's book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms". So Daniel 8 accounts for the historical sequence of empires, and then goes into a prophecy for Russia, which is still in progress. And Daniel 11 similarly accounts for the sequence of empires and then begin at WWI. -- Perhaps you should consider a "word study" where Dan. 2:39 depicts historical Greece as "all the earth", which 11:2 depicts a "stir up all against the kingdom of Greece [all the earth]" as in ~World War~.

And having started with WWI, you should immediately find a "mighty king" who started WWII, and then his country was divided with half to the Russians, and half to the Western nations. -- Hmmmmm!


With Best Regards,
DD
 
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Douggg

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They're not MY numbers, -- they're GOD's numbers:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,5,3,2,1 = FIVE

But I can certainly understand that you would disregard Scripture in deference to your doctrines. It happens all the time, -- not so much with GOD; but with men ...

DaDad
In Daniel 7 the fourth kingdom is in power when the Kingdom of God is brought here to earth. The same is true when the kingdom of iron mixed with clay is in power in Daniel 2.

Four Kingdoms. The iron kingdom in Daniel 2 has internal weakness because of the nature of the fourth kingdom in its end times form.

The clay is not counted as a separate kingdom. It is fourth kingdom in verse 40 and continues as the fourth kingdom in verse 41 but is divided. Which is easy to see that the EU is made of member nations.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
 
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DaDad

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... Four Kingdoms. ...

You say "four", GOD says FIVE:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

Yep, I can believe YOU, or I can believe GOD, -- I'll choose GOD.



And I'll "IGNORE" you from now on. Scripture advises us not to throw our "pearls", which means not to waste our time ...

DaDad
 
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Douggg

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You say "four", GOD says FIVE:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE
You are claiming to be God ?

Yep, I can believe YOU, or I can believe GOD, -- I'll choose GOD.
You are not God, or even a god. That's your typing.

And I'll "IGNORE" you from now on. Scripture advises us not to throw our "pearls", which means not to waste our time ...

DaDad
You are wasting your time and everyone's else's time as well, with the off the wall commentary you come up with.
 
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claninja

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Ok, you caught me. I got up to 88 mph and went back ~2,500 years in time so that I could help Daniel construct the sentence which provided the sequence:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

seems like a lot of work for something that didn't need to be done.

There's no fooling you.

cuz I got the almanac ;)

And to top it off, there really isn't a Fifth "divided kingdom" as evidenced by the THREE Superpowers and the United Nations.

"3 super powers" and "united nations" is not evidence. That would be personal interpretation. There is no scripture that defines the feet and toes as the 3 super power and united nations. If there was, then you would have a solid argument. But....you don't.

Once again I failed in my quest to "report history" as such, because you saw through all the fake history books and all the news reports which I contrived. I did my best!

But you're too smart for me. -- As in Homer's: "I am so smart, I am so smart, S M R T, S M R T, ...".

okay........
 
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DaDad

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...
"3 super powers" and "united nations" is not evidence. That would be personal interpretation. There is no scripture that defines the feet and toes as the 3 super power and united nations. If there was, then you would have a solid argument. But....you don't.
...

You're right, I don't have any evidence that there are THREE Superpowers, and a United Nations. However, History Books, National News Reports, and the Scriptures are FULL of evidence. But a blind man wouldn't know it! :)


So did you have an explanation for the 4,3,5,2,1 INTELLIGENT DESIGN, or did you intentionally avoid answering a simple question?!?

DD
 
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claninja

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You're right, I don't have any evidence that there are THREE Superpowers, and a United Nations.

Great, that's all I needed to know.

However, History Books, National News Reports, and the Scriptures are FULL of evidence.

Sure, but as you said above, you don't have any evidence for your position.

But a blind man wouldn't know it! :)

neither would a man who argues with no evidence.

So did you have an explanation for the 4,3,5,2,1 INTELLIGENT DESIGN, or did you intentionally avoid answering a simple question?!?

Where in post #29 did you ask a question? I don't see one.

Maybe that's why I didn't answer your "simple question"
 
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DaDad

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... Where in post #29 did you ask a question? I don't see one. ...

Post #23:
What is the Intelligent Design of the sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE?

Yeah, you're a waste of time. -- Ignored!


To All,
It's not surprising that so many on a "christian forum" are not "Christians", they're only "christians". What a revelation.

Those that can't/won't find the TRUTH of Bible Prophecy will be as 1 Thess. 5 depicts:

1 Thess. 5
3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

We all choose whether we'll be SURPRISED, or INFORMED. I prefer to be informed and inform others, -- but some apparently prefer to be SURPRISED.

DD
 
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claninja

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Post #23 was between you and Douggg, we started conversing after post #27.

What is the Intelligent Design of the sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE?

Good job, you counted 5 elements. 2 of those elements (iron and clay) are in the same kingdom.

What would you say is the purpose of the clay, in other words, what does the clay represent?

To All,
It's not surprising that so many on a "christian forum" are not "Christians", they're only "christians". What a revelation.

Those that can't/won't find the TRUTH of Bible Prophecy will be as 1 Thess. 5 depicts:

1 Thess. 5
3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

We all choose whether we'll be SURPRISED, or INFORMED. I prefer to be informed and inform others, -- but some apparently prefer to be SURPRISED.

DD

To all,

Please see DaDad's post #35, where he admits has no evidence for his beliefs:

You're right, I don't have any evidence that there are THREE Superpowers, and a United Nations.
 
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Rodron

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Hello All

It has become obvious to me from reading posts in the various threads that most people see Daniel as a series of loosely or unconnected prophecies. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The King has the Dream in Daniel 2: Daniel interprets the King’s dream but is amazed and puzzled and he does not understand. Over the next many years life is good but Daniel is still puzzled by the four great Kingdoms.

The Book of Daniel is a series of prophecies in which Daniel keeps looking for clarity but finds none. Each new vision is God’s attempt to explain the previous vision. So 8 tries to explain parts of seven 9 tries to explain parts of 8 and 11 and 12 try to explain 9. 8. And 7.

Just look at the over all theme here. He has the dream of Daniel 7: as an answer to his curiosity about the four kingdoms.

But that doesn’t help poor Daniel understand at all in fact the chapter ends with

[28] "Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed; but I kept the matter in my mind."

You see to Daniel, in his time, Media Persia was a very powerful Empire that he knew very well. So The Bear of Daniel 7: Or the Second Kingdom to rule the land was no mystery to him.

The third Beast from chapter 7: was a mystery though. Daniel wanted to know who this Leopard was that had four heads.

Chapter 8: is the Answer to his question ……………but poor Daniel ……….it seems the answer only served to scare him and mystify him even more. He ends the Chapter with

[27] And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days; then I rose and went about the king's business; but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.

Daniel is appalled rise up against the Saints destroy the Jews and prosper he will even rise up against the Prince of Princes. No wonder he is appalled!

So Now Daniel asks for clarification because he still does not understand. He wants to know when all this will happen when will the Prince of Princes come??????when will be the end of Jerusalem's desolations and punishment…………. as the 70 Years of the prophecy of Jeremiah was almost over. He wanted to know what every Jewish person wanted to know. He wanted to know when the promise to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob be fulfilled. The promise to The House of Judah and the House of Jacob or Joseph / Ephraim.

Jer 33:24: Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26: Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

So Daniel prays and submits supplication and gets the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years or 490 years. This is chapter 9:

Well once again Daniel is just further confused he needs details of this 490 Years until the Promise is fulfilled. We read in Chapter 10 Daniel once again asking for understanding. Praying and fasting for many days. He is still confounded by the visions he has had. He understands Jerusalem will be slowly built and then destroyed. But How will all this happen. He is still appalled not just one desolation of the Temple BUT MANY DESOLATIONS

Dan 10: 8: Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

The Answer to Daniel's Question is Chapter 11 and 12 : in Chapter 11: Daniel is given very specific events that span from that time to the Time of the end and the first resurrection. It is laid out as a series of events that start of with sometimes decades in gaps and as it get further from Daniel's time the gaps get larger only dealing with the most important events.

Chapter 12 is a continuation of Chapter 11 in which Daniel is told of all the Time frames that would be in play.

Daniel Still does not get it and is told NO ONE would understand until the last days.

And so ends the book of Daniel.

It is not a series of dissociated visions, it is one after another trying to explain the previous vision.
Hey just the facts this is not on all of the book of Daniel but the answer to chapter 2 in chapter 7.
Daniel 7: 2-7 (KJV) Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Babylon had a winged lion symbol, in Jerimiah before the first temple was destroyed, we see who the lion was.

Jeremiah 4:7 (KJV) The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant

The lion is king of the beasts and king refers to the gold head when Nebuchadnezzar was king in Dan. 2. But now in the rule of Belshazzar they became weaker and the kingdom shrank and the courageous heart of a lion was replaced by a weak and wicked heart of a man, and made to stand as a man. Later we see how easy they were defeated. in Habakkuk 1:6-9 are the wings.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Medo-Persian Empire. Darius the Mede and Cyrus his nephew came together to go against Babylon. A bear is very vicious and blood thirsty raising up on one side shows the Persian empire was the stronger because they had overruled the Medes. The ribs in its mouth are the from the Medes empire Persians took before they joined together. This refers to the silver chest and arms in Daniel 2

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Greek Empire. Described as a leopard...four wings of a fowl, a leopard is fast and catching its prey intercepting and the wings helped it conquer even faster. The four heads, Alexander was the leopard and when he died the kingdom was divided to his four generals. This beast refers back to the brass waist of Daniel 2

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Revelation 13:1-4 (KJV) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The Roman Empire was not described by an animal. Dreadful, terrible, strong exceedingly, Iron teeth...devoured and brake in pieces whatever was before it and stamped the residue with the feet of it. Roman empire was totally different than all the ones before refers to the legs of iron and joined with the Iron/Clay feet with ten toes in Daniel 2. Horns are used as a symbol of kings/kingdoms.

The empire started to divide to east and west 40 50 B.C. The land mass Rome was over got to large the Roman empire was divided into ten provinces. I used Revelation 13 beast, I believe they are the same beast that the false prophet in Rev. 13 makes an image of and both beasts were given same amount of time to do their evil. The rest of Daniel 7 corresponds with a lot of Revelations and I believe Daniel and John were seeing the same the things but the writings are different. The 4 beasts in Dan. 7 are the same as Dan. 2 the toes and the horns are later but still in our past. If you compare Daniel 7:9-28 to Revelations, many parallels. in light and love Rodron
 
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DaDad

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Babylon had a winged lion symbol, in Jerimiah before the first temple was destroyed, we see who the lion was. ...

Neither Scriptural nor Historical. But in an imaginary world, EVERYTHING is possible ...


DaDad
 
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