the dispensationalism of Irenaeus

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Just The Facts said:
Hello All

There is no doubt that Early church Fathers came in all flavours. From full Dispensationalist to partial to Covenant. Anyone who tries to say that this view of scripture was invented in 1830 is just not being realistic from either a lack of familiarity with ECF or a misrepresentation of the facts.

If you spend the time to start with Earliest Apostolic Fathers you will see they all believed that we are the Temple some even going as far as to state that the future destruction and desecration mentioned in Daniel was of the Saints not a building. Even stating that taking away of the sacrifice was taking away the saints prayers and deeds.

This belief slowly transformed over the second century. If you are going to put a date on when this theology began it would be more accurate to say it began between 150-200 AD. But that only represents when it began being written about. No one can say it was not there earlier.

The reason why some people think it was Darby is because the Catholic Church persecuted as heretics, all who taught something not approved by them. This continued right through to the Reformation. After that we slowly start to see more and more theologies come out with this view of scripture.

Lets be clear that what the RCC teaches about straight to Heaven, at least one of the earliest Apostolic Fathers stated was Heresy of the worst kind, even saying they were not Christians at all.

It would be nice if you provide a single shred of evidence for any of your claims. Thee is no evidence of the system of Dispensationalism (it's teachings /doctrines) prior to Darby. Just cause Irenaeus used the word dispensation shows nothing. He was using the word in a different way than its used today, just as the word catholic had a different meaning

Just The Facts · Feb 17, 2019

Hello Shag

I agree you can not take a word and its use 1600 years ago and use it the same. As for Catholic Iranaeus uses it the same way it means universal. It is a Latin word it means universal. The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Well that is what those in the fourth century believed. Just as Earlier in the century there was the Orthodox Church which is Greek for Correct Thinking. I do understand what you mean no one today or very few see the word Catholic as meaning universal. They see it as a Title of a Christian CHurch.

As for what these men Taught Iranaeus clearly taught a future restoration of Israel a Future Temple and a future desecration of that Temple. Perhaps some of that understanding is made by association but I believe it is there.

Having said all that it really is irrelevant he was wrong and this doctrine is in error and can not be supported by scripture.

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
Your response is word salad, and disingenuous . Dispensationalist teach that there are seven periods of time, that for example the current dispensation is the Church Age. They believe there is this future "Tribulation Age" or whatever it's called, where God is dealing primarily with Israel.

I did deal with your first quotation in point 1. That is the first occurrence of the word dispensation in your post. Christ is the dispenser of grace. The action of dispensing the grace could be called the dispensation of grace, which is what the word is referring to.

Dispensationalists made up the time meaning. I proved that in my post by showing that there was no sense of time in earlier English dictionaries, something you did not address. Current dictionaries include a sense of time but earlier ones dont. That's cause dispensationlist changed the meaning of the word.

Irennaeus also used the word catholic. Does that make him Catholic? Just cause he used a word does not mean he was using it in the same sense as it is meant today , and that's what you are failing to understand

I am persuaded that I have proved my point sufficiently to convince anyone who approaches the subject with an open mind. And those that do not cannot be convinced with any amount of proof. I will leave this for others to judge.

BABerean2 · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I am persuaded that I have proved my point sufficiently to convince anyone who approaches the subject with an open mind. And those that do not cannot be convinced with any amount of proof. I will leav this for others to judge.

Did Irenaeus claim that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?

Did Irenaeus claim the "Church Age" would end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ?

Did Irenaeus claim that God would deal with modern Israel under the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ, as promoted by "Classic" Dispensationlists?

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Just The Facts said:
Hello Shag

I agree you can not take a word and its use 1600 years ago and use it the same. As for Catholic Iranaeus uses it the same way it means universal. It is a Latin word it means universal. The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Well that is what those in the fourth century believed. Just as Earlier in the century there was the Orthodox Church which is Greek for Correct Thinking. I do understand what you mean no one today or very few see the word Catholic as meaning universal. They see it as a Title of a Christian CHurch.

As for what these men Taught Iranaeus clearly taught a future restoration of Israel a Future Temple and a future desecration of that Temple. Perhaps some of that understanding is made by association but I believe it is there.

Having said all that it really is irrelevant he was wrong and this doctrine is in error and can not be supported by scripture.

The word Catholic more often refers to a branch of Christianity today. A future restoration of Israel is in no way a dispensationlist system.

Dispensationalists teach that there is an end time "dispensation" for Israel, that the church has to be taken out of the way, etc etc. None of this was taught by the early church. The early church was chiliast and believed in a pist-tribulation rapture. Moreover, the Bible makes clear it happens after the tribulation.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Did Irenaeus claim that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?

Did Irenaeus claim the "Church Age" would end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ?

Did Irenaeus claim that God would deal with modern Israel under the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ, as promoted by "Classic" Dispensationlists?

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

I tend to agree. I recently started a YouTube channel, covering topics (in a quicker and easier way to understand). Here is a link to a video that proves a post-tribulation rapture.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

And a new video I just posted (YouTube view count is wrong LOL).

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I am persuaded that I have proved my point sufficiently to convince anyone who approaches the subject with an open mind. And those that do not cannot be convinced with any amount of proof. I will leav this for others to judge.

No offense, but I don't think you have provided a single shred of evidence. What you have shown is that Irenaeus used the word "dispensation" in Against Heresies several times. Using the word "dispensation" is far different than showing that Irenaeus was a Dispensationalist. That is, the system popularized (invented) by Darby.

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Did Irenaeus claim that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?

Did Irenaeus claim the "Church Age" would end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ?

Did Irenaeus claim that God would deal with modern Israel under the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ, as promoted by "Classic" Dispensationlists?

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

Neither Irenaeus nor any accepted modern Dispensationalist teacher claimed that that anyone would ever be saved outside of Christ. But both Irenaeus taught and the modern Dispenstionalists teach that the Jews will come to faith in Christ after the church has been "suddenly caught up."

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
No offense, but I don't think you have provided a single shred of evidence. What you have shown is that Irenaeus used the word "dispensation" in Against Heresies several times. Using the word "dispensation" is far different than showing that Irenaeus was a Dispensationalist. That is, the system popularized (invented) by Darby.

What I have proved was that Irenaeus taught that the dispensations of God had been presented in regular order and succession, each at the fitting time to work toward a fixed purpose. This is indeed the central essence of Dispensationalism, whether you understand it or not.

But Not only Irenaeus, but also Hippolytus and numerous other truly ancient writers clearly taught various concepts unique to Dispensationalism. This included three of them that taught a rapture before the great tribulation and two that taught a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week.

And these teachings were indeed revived soon after the publication of the King James translation made Bibles, for the first time, widely available at prices common men could afford. This caused, among other things more than two dozen other writers before Darby to teach a rapture significantly before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked. All of these taught this concept before either Darby of Irving published anything, and most of them taught it before either of them was borne.

Between my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," and William Watson's book, "Dispensationalism Before Darby," it has now been conclusively proved that the widely reported claim that Darby "invented" Dispensationalism is simply not correct.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Neither Irenaeus nor any accepted modern Dispensationalist teacher claimed that that anyone would ever be saved outside of Christ. But both Irenaeus and the midern Dispenstionalists taught that the Jews will come to faith in Christ after the church has been "suddenly caught up."

You are referring to a quote in Against Heresies where Irenaeus states "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

The expression "caught up" does not refer to the rapture. That is, it doesn't refer to Jesus coming and whisking people away while the rest of the world goes through a seven year tribulation, and then he comes back again.

Number one, the early Church thought they were living in the tribulation. They thought the persecution against them was the tribulation, so clearly they thought the Church would be in the Tribulation. Number two, Justin Martyr states this...

"When Christ comes, He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. …Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He set forth as suffering… and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy (Antichrist) who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians… who …though beheaded, crucified, thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and other torture, we do not give up our confession"

The "from this" in the expression "caught up from this" is referring to the previous sentence, that describes God's wrath. He was referring to the previous sentence that states "so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold" as a reference to God's wrath.

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
You are referring to a quote in Against Heresies where Irenaeus states "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

The expression "caught up" does not refer to the rapture. That is, it doesn't refer to Jesus coming and whisking people away while the rest of the world goes through a seven year tribulation, and then he comes back again.

Number one, the early Church thought they were living in the tribulation. They thought the persecution against them was the tribulation, so clearly they thought the Church would be in the Tribulation. Number two, Justin Martyr states this...

"When Christ comes, He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. …Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He set forth as suffering… and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy (Antichrist) who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians… who …though beheaded, crucified, thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and other torture, we do not give up our confession"

The "from this" in the expression "caught up from this" is referring to the previous sentence, that describes God's wrath. He was referring to the previous sentence that states "so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold" as a reference to God's wrath.

Up to the point in the scenario Irenaeus taught, He always spoke of those going through the events he was describing as either "the church" or "we" or "us." But after that point in his scenario, he changed his pronouns. From that point on, he always called the people experiencing the events he was now describing, "they," "them," or "those." This proves that he really meant what he appeared to be saying, that the church would be "suddenly caught up." And your claim that he was saying "caught up from the wrath" is unsupportable. The entire quotation was:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘Th ere shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
What I have proved was that Irenaeus taught that the dispensations of God had been presented in regular order and succession, each at the fitting time to work toward a fixed purpose. This is indeed the central essence of Dispensationalism, whether you understand it or not.

But Not only Irenaeus, but also Hippolytus and numerous other truly ancient writers clearly taught various concepts unique to Dispensationalism. This included three of them that taught a rapture before the great tribulation and two that taught a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week.

And these teachings were indeed revived soon after the publication of the King James translation made Bibles, for the first time, widely available at prices common men could afford. This caused, among other things more than two dozen other writers before Darby to teach a rapture significantly before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked. All of these taught this concept before either Darby of Irving published anything, and most of them taught it before either of them was borne.

Between my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," and William Watson's book, "Dispensationalism Before Darby," it has now been conclusively proved that the widely reported claim that Darby "invented" Dispensationalism is simply not correct.

I agree that's what Dispensationalism teaches! It's not what the early church taught, and it's certainly not a Biblical doctrine. Just because you say you have proved something doesn't make it so. With all respect, you're just demonstrating your lack of knowledge of history.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Up to the point in the scenario Irenaeus taught, He always spoke of those going through the events he was describing as either "the church" or "we" or "us." But after that point in his scenario, he changed his pronouns. From that point on, he always called the people experiencing the events he was now describing, "they," "them," or "those." This proves that he really meant what he appeared to be saying, that the church would be "suddenly caught up." And your claim that he was saying "caught up from the wrath" is unsupportable. The entire quotation was:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘Th ere shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

More word salad. People don't say "this" without first defining what "this" is. Under your logic, he would have stated "this" without first defining "this".

Yes, people use the word "this" in other contexts such as "This is the day that the Lord has made" but that's not the context being used here. The context is that something is described and then a promise of being caught up from it. What is first described is God's wrath.

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
More word salad. People don't say "this" without first defining what "this" is. Under your logic, he would have stated "this" without first defining "this".

Yes, people use the word "this" in other contexts such as "This is the day that the Lord has made" but that's not the context being used here. The context is that something is described and then a promise of being caught up from it. What is first described is God's wrath.

The word "this," as used here by Irenaeus, was obviously used in reference to "Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven," There is nothing in this entire statement about the judgment of God, the statement about fire was in his description of the uselessness of these wicked nations to "the just." This uselessness was described "as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold." So your claim that the words "from this" were a reference to "the wrath of God" is indeed baseless.

And quoting anything from a different writer has zero bearing on what Irenaeus said. And in so speaking, you are only proving your own ignorance of the history of Christian doctrine. For there has never been a time when all the (professedly) Christian writers of any period agreed about almost anything.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

So you're going up even further and saying that that's the OBVIOUS reference? I think it's a lot more likely that he's referring to what he stated just previously, that "so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold.", which is an obvious reference to God's wrath (by means of combustion)

Weak sauce!

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
So you're going up even further and saying that that sentence is the OBVIOUS reference? I think it's a lot more likely that he's referring to what he stated just previously, that "so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold.", which is an obvious reference to God's wrath (by means of combustion)

Weak sauce!

That sentence most certainly does not refer to God's wrath. It is speaking of the worthlessness of stubble, even for making a fire hot enough to work Gold. And it is using that worthlessness to describe the worthlessness to "the just" of "those nations... who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth."

Your entire argument lacks any logical basis whatsoever.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

"And quoting anything from a different writer has zero bearing on what Irenaeus said. And in so speaking, you are only proving your own ignorance of the history of Christian doctrine. For there has never been a time when all the (professedly) Christian writers of any period agreed about almost anything."[/QUOTE]

I guess that's why it was called the "catholic" (universal) church right? Because no one agreed on anything! LOL. There are certain doctrines people disagree on sure. But Ireneaeus did write a volume of books called "Against Heresies" in a time when the printing press wasn't invented. These ideas must have been vitally important to the early church.

I quoted from different writers to show that the church was in agreement on these issues, and that it's really just your understanding of Irenaeus that is misguided.

shagsnacks · Feb 17, 2019

Biblewriter said:
That sentence most certainly does not refer to God's wrath. It is speaking of the worthlessness of stubble, even for making a fire hot enough to work Gold. And it is using that worthlessness to describe the worthlessness to "the just" of "those nations... who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth."

Your entire argument lacks any logical basis whatsoever.

So now the argument has now switched to "That sentence doesn't refer to God's wrath". Ok. I'll bite.

Irenaeus was saying that the nations are like a drop in the bucket (quoting from Isaiah) in the first part of that paragraph of a sentence. After the semicolon, he is describing what these nations are good for. He is saying they are good for burning and thus refining gold (purifying his Church)

So yes, it does have with judgement and wrath. Irenaeus is saying we are caught up from this "combustion" or, burning of the nations. That is, the Church is kept from God's wrath when he destroys the world by fire.

Biblewriter · Feb 17, 2019

shagsnacks said:
So now the argument has now switched to "That sentence doesn't refer to God's wrath". Ok. I'll bite.

Irenaeus was saying that the nations are like a drop in the bucket (quoting from Isaiah) in the first part of that paragraph of a sentence. After the semicolon, he is describing what these nations are good for. He is saying they are good for burning and thus refining gold (purifying his Church)

So yes, it does have with judgement and wrath. Irenaeus is saying we are caught up from this "combustion" or, burning of the nations. That is, the Church is kept from God's wrath when he destroys the world by fire.

the dispensationalism of Irenaeus

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