Capitalism crushes socialism -- new US poll

Francis Drake said:

Socialism is an evil deception based on covetousness and greed. You cannot vote for socialism without also trampling all over the God given principles shown in the Law of Moses.

Ex20v17You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

In essence, Socialism says, "If you vote for me, I will take your neighbour's hard earned money and give it to you."

Dictionary.com definition of socialism-

noun
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
(The only way the state can obtain ownership of the above things is by confiscating it from people. ie. stealing it.)

procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
(Ultimately, socialism's purpose is to secretly create the route towards Communism.)

If Christians want to distribute wealth around, let them do it with their own money, not mine.

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The Law of Moses also demands a 10% tithe and alms for the poor. The tithe went to support the government. Alms were freely given. The parable of the Good Samaritan shows us what we should be doing for others in need. Obviously when Christians won't or can't meet this need, something else needs to happen.

USincognito said:

"American culture"

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We all look alike.

LoAmmi said:

Deut 15
7If there will be among you a needy person, from one of your brothers in one of your cities, in your land the Lord, your God, is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, and you shall not close your hand from your needy brother.


Leviticus 19
10And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you collect the [fallen] individual grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger. I am the Lord, your God.

Deut 14
11For there will never cease to be needy within the land. Therefore, I command you, saying, you shall surely open your hand to your brother, to your poor one, and to your needy one in your land.

There are more, just to note....

Lots of commandments in the Law of Moses about giving the stuff you have to other folks who are in need. Doesn't really seem like a suggestion here either, y'know? More like being told what you have to do.

I'm sure this is all part of that "ceremonial law" that Christians tell me Jesus got rid of.

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Where in these verses does it state that a country's government is responsible for helping the poor? Is it not true that the admonishment to give to other's is a commandment for the individual?

Veritas said:

Where in these verses does it state that a country's government is responsible for helping the poor? Is it not true that the admonishment to give to other's is a commandment for the individual?

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That's a good point. Yet we band together as clubs, churches and charities to help the poor. Why can't "We the People" band together as a government to help the poor?

Nithavela said:

The problem is that for something like the northern european model to work, one has to have a culture that supports it. I am afraid USA culture as a whole is not conductive for such a system.

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I disagree, and I actually think that is a bigoted statement. Do you think Americans are fundamentally different from Europeans or Japanese, who do have functional state capitalism?

Speedwell said:

That's a good point. Yet we band together as clubs, churches and charities to help the poor. Why can't "We the People" band together as a government to help the poor?

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Because then people get dependent on the Big, Mean, Ol’ Government...instead of God.

Pommer said:

Because then people get dependent on the Big, Mean, Ol’ Government...instead of God.

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I think it's because they can't keep some of the money from going to poor people they don't approve of.

Speedwell said:

I think it's because they can't keep some of the money from going to poor people they don't approve of.

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Bingo

The church can deny certain people from accessing charity effectively making sure they suffer unless they tow the religious line. Don’t believe me, there’s a thread on this board about an adoption agency discriminating against people they don’t like. Now imagine the entire social safety net like that. It would be horrible for minority groups. I’d like to think Christian groups couldn’t be that cruel but I’m not that naive.

Speedwell said:

I think it's because they can't keep some of the money from going to poor people they don't approve of.

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Oh my! You said that out loud!?

FireDragon76 said:

I disagree, and I actually think that is a bigoted statement. Do you think Americans are fundamentally different from Europeans or Japanese, who do have functional state capitalism?

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In a certain way, they are. Especially compared to the Japanese, who have an entirely different culture.

There are also some differences inside of europa, and of course there are differences between cultures in the USA, but your overall culture is not conductive. It is far too based on individualism and individual achievement.

Nithavela said:

In a certain way, they are. Especially compared to the Japanese, who have an entirely different culture.

There are also some differences inside of europa, and of course there are differences between cultures in the USA, but your overall culture is not conductive. It is far too based on individualism and individual achievement.

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That's a stereotype of Americans. There are regions and ethnicities in the US that are not as individualistic.

Francis Drake said:

Socialism is an evil deception based on covetousness and greed. You cannot vote for socialism without also trampling all over the God given principles shown in the Law of Moses.

Ex20v17You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

In essence, Socialism says, "If you vote for me, I will take your neighbour's hard earned money and give it to you."

Dictionary.com definition of socialism-

noun
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
(The only way the state can obtain ownership of the above things is by confiscating it from people. ie. stealing it.)

procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
(Ultimately, socialism's purpose is to secretly create the route towards Communism.)

If Christians want to distribute wealth around, let them do it with their own money, not mine.

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Yes...socialism is about greed
Capitalism, which cannot function without greed, is not about greed; its just about getting more money than other people.

FireDragon76 said:

I disagree, and I actually think that is a bigoted statement. Do you think Americans are fundamentally different from Europeans or Japanese, who do have functional state capitalism?

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You have a different world view absolutely.

Not different people though...

rambot said:

You have a different world view absolutely.

Not different people though...

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I don't think Americans have a singular worldview. There are Americans that are Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, etc. At least a quarter of Americans have no religious affiliation at all.

Unless the questions included some explanatory detail, this is the lamest poll I've ever seen. If the question is simply do you favor 1) Capitalism 2) Socialism, the respondents are just expressing an opinion on language. They're only stating what these broad, very general terms mean to them. Which is mostly a function of the connotation these words have acquired in common, everyday speech. A well-structured and far more informative poll would supply definitions, and specific examples of capitalist and socialist policies. Respondents would be asked to state their views on each. Examples: Ask about support for tax-funded social safety net programs--like Medicare, Social Security, and FUTA/SUTA (federal and state unemployment benefits.) I'll guarantee you'll get very different answers. The closest the poll in the article gets is the question about tax-supported national health insurance. Which was exactly tied between those favoring and those opposing. This is probably the only finding that's in any way informative. To me, it's evidence that some variety of Medicare-for-all is coming.

FireDragon76 said:

That's a stereotype of Americans. There are regions and ethnicities in the US that are not as individualistic.

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Propably, but for such a thing as the nordic or japanese system to work, you need the vast majority of the population subscribing to the same set of values.

And you can complain all day about how not every american is the same and how there are similarities between the cultures and that both countries are made out of the same people, but if you aren't able to see the cultural differences between the USA and Japan, you aren't looking very hard. They are well-documented and researched.

If you want to know more, I'd suggest you start by researching the concept of Shokunin. It's a concept central to japanese work ethic that is so foreign to anyone outside of Japan that it doesn't even have a translation.

From the outside, America can appear more polarized than it actually is.

Evangelicals in the US represent no more than 25 percent the population- perhaps as little as 15 percent. Genuine paleo-conservatives in the US are likewise underrepresented. When you get beyond that, there's a broad consensus among Americans on many values. Traditionally, Americans are highly pragmatic people and willing to look at results, not ideology.

Furthermore, a country like Canada is multiethnic and pluralistic, and yet has a successful state capitalist system with some of the lowest rates of corporate taxation in the world. So I don't buy it for a minute that it couldn't work here.

FireDragon76 said:

From the outside, America can appear more polarized than it actually is.

Evangelicals in the US represent no more than 25 percent the population- perhaps as little as 15 percent. Genuine paleo-conservatives in the US are likewise underrepresented. When you get beyond that, there's a broad consensus among Americans on many values. Traditionally, Americans are highly pragmatic people and willing to look at results, not ideology.

Furthermore, a country like Canada is multiethnic and pluralistic, and yet has a successful state capitalist system with some of the lowest rates of corporate taxation in the world. So I don't buy it for a minute that it couldn't work here.

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You (as in, you americans) are free to prove me wrong. But I think that it would go south because of too many americans not behaving accordingly.

If you'd make it work, I would be happy for you. I'm just sceptical and haven't seen anything yet that would alleviate my scepticism.

Nithavela said:

You (as in, you americans) are free to prove me wrong. But I think that it would go south because of too many americans not behaving accordingly.

If you'd make it work, I would be happy for you. I'm just sceptical and haven't seen anything yet that would alleviate my scepticism.

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I'm optimistic. I think things like Youtube and the internet help expose Americans to more cultures. Even rural areas in the US now days are less provincial and culturally isolated than they once were.

What you are seeing now days in the US, with Trumpism, is due to old grey-haired people, like my parents, going senile and not being able to keep up with social changes in the world. The younger generation has far different attitudes.