The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

gordonhooker said:

OK so what do you believe it says brother?

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I believe it says:
"15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. "

Are you wanting me to explain the metaphors of "true vine" and "husbandman"?

You've not only got me guessing what you are asking, you have me guessing what your point is.

Would you like to take this opportunity to get right to it?

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:1-10 is a warning to believers to abide (remain) in Christ and bear fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine, thrown away to wither, and thrown in the fire to be burned. The result is loss of salvation. This is referring to branches who are currently “in Christ”.

Romans 11 Paul teaches that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in if they repent.

Hence salvation is conditional and not eternally secure.

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Thank you.
But the only way I could believe that is if I and not God were sovereign over my destiny which was created before I was ( I think that's all in Eph 1:4-7

So now looking back at John 1 we can see he is addressing the frozen chosen (lol - frozen in freedom).
He must be talking about a state of grace, not eternal life.
God does not repent of a gift He gives (Rom 11:29), that wouldn't be gracious at all. I could then boast about being worthy of being saved, so the grafting is back into good graces.
It is your works that will burn, not you (1Cor 3:15)

Conditional salvation gives me bragging rights.

Rick Otto said:

I believe it says:
"15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. "

Are you wanting me to explain the metaphors of "true vine" and "husbandman"?

You've not only got me guessing what you are asking, you have me guessing what your point is.

Would you like to take this opportunity to get right to it?

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I like your posts so I was hoping you would share what you believe the point of the metaphor was.

In this part of the forum you get to read some interesting interpretations of the same piece of scripture.

Hammster said:

God is worthy to love Himself and His glory. Narcissists are not.

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Worthy or not, it's not Godly to indulge.

gordonhooker said:

I like your posts so I was hoping you would share what you believe the point of the metaphor was.

In this part of the forum you get to read some interesting interpretations of the same piece of scripture.

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I think it is describing relationship in terms of states of grace.
Rewards in heaven are conditional but the gift of eternal life is without repentance. If salvation was conditional I would have every right to brag about mine.
My imperfection is the most dependable thing about me so the idea of that being in God's hands is comforting.
Hope you still like my posts.

redleghunter said:

In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”​

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)​

Continuing in Exodus...

Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
​

Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

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Men definitely have to make choices. But God can also choose to do what he wants.

God said (through the prophet)

Isaiah 66:3,4 “...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Hammster said:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:22-23

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I still don’t get your point with this. I already said this in my point about Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane.

Hammster said:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:22-23

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I think we are at cross purposes here (pardon the pun) only because of semantics.
God being responsible for evil doesn't make him personally guilty of it any more than me being responsible for my children doesn't make me guilty of their misdeeds.

God being in control doesn't need to mean he micro-manages everything, he just contains it with limits.

Rick Otto said:

Thank you.
But the only way I could believe that is if I and not God were sovereign over my destiny which was created before I was ( I think that's all in Eph 1:4-7

So now looking back at John 1 we can see he is addressing the frozen chosen (lol - frozen in freedom).
He must be talking about a state of grace, not eternal life.
God does not repent of a gift He gives (Rom 11:29), that wouldn't be gracious at all. I could then boast about being worthy of being saved, so the grafting is back into good graces.
It is your works that will burn, not you (1Cor 3:15)

Conditional salvation gives me bragging rights.

Click to expand...

It’s not about the works my friend it’s about the heart. The heart that desires to do God’s will. People aren’t condemned for not doing good works they’re condemned for not loving others. It’s love for others that compels good works. This love we receive by the Holy Spirit. Look at the examples given in Matthew 25:42-43 also James 2:15-16. The goats are condemned for lack of works they’re condemned for lack of love. Even in John 15 Christ says

“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:8-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It’s not about the works it’s about the heart my friend. The heart that is not self serving but full of love and compassion.

redleghunter said:

I do too. But does not negate what Paul wrote and argued in Romans 3.

So their must be an explanation as Scriptures do not contradict and I know you believe this too.

Perhaps we should ask how the humble arrive at being humble.

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I was caught up by what seems the bigger question to me personally above, about humbleness, but should respond to the question with Romans 3. Paul is giving a couple of key things in those verses 9-18 I notice --
a) helping us to get it that we are sinful even if we didn't realize it yet, such as by helping people recognize that a few moment of good don't negate all the other moments of not-good (example: a person might be wrongly think they are pretty good because they were kind one afternoon, and conveniently forget the unkind way they acted the day before, or that same day to another person elsewhere....)
b) setting up then to help us realize how profound the act of amazing grace and mercy is then by which we are saved.
Those 2 don't connect to the question of humility in any manner really in my view, in that while sometimes we remember that we failed to be humble, but someone else may be humble and still do plenty of other sin. Being humble is far from being sin free, and also being not-humble at some moments (and feeling bad about it too) isn't the same as being generally arrogant (most of the time or routinely). But being usually humble is very far yet from being sin-free.

BNR32FAN said:

It’s not about the works my friend it’s about the heart. The heart that desires to do God’s will. People aren’t condemned for not doing good works they’re condemned for not loving others. It’s love for others that compels good works. This love we receive by the Holy Spirit. Look at the examples given in Matthew 25:42-43 also James 2:15-16. The goats are condemned for lack of works they’re condemned for lack of love. Even in John 15 Christ says

“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:8-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It’s not about the works it’s about the heart my friend. The heart that is not self serving but full of love and compassion.

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Exactly.
"It" meaning salvation, is not conditional - not about works.

The works are about rewards in heaven. Those are conditional.

Hammster said:

It’s was God’s Plan for men to sin and crucify Christ.

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Yes but He didn’t cause them to sin. He simply knew they would and used that to His purpose.

BNR32FAN said:

John Calvin was the one who reinvented the wheel 1500 years after it was already invented by men specifically chosen by God. Did the apostles chosen by Jesus fail in their task to establish the churches? Did Jesus’ plan to establish churches fail to preach His message correctly until John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later?

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We Calvinists don't really think of John Calvin as an inventor, there is this concept of reform that comes to mind. Still, appreciate a little satire here and there for the sake of emphasis

Rick Otto said:

Exactly.
"It" meaning salvation, is not conditional - not about works.

The works are about rewards in heaven. Those are conditional.

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Salvation is conditional in the sense that we must submit ourselves to do God’s will. If we refuse we will not receive salvation. So there is a condition that must be met in order to receive salvation. We can either choose to be compassionate or to be greedy and self serving. Our choice determines our fate.

Hammster said:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:22-23

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Of course by 'lawless men', that means all of us right?

redleghunter said:

The certain thing stated is God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

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Yeah, but I think it is very crucial to understand how it was done. It was not done by altering free will. And it was not done by doing something evil or wrong. On the contrary, every time God made situation better, pharaohs heart was hardened.