Mans law or Gods law?

Zoii · Feb 6, 2019

What concerns me most is that theres a good number of people who take the logic of this thread and take it up to a whole new level whereby they believe that they are above the law; in favour of God's law- These people are referred to sovereign citizens and the US FBI regards them as one of the nation's highest domestic threats.
The case belows also shows the gross stupidity of these types of people.

BNR32FAN · Feb 6, 2019

W2L said:
Who do we obey?

I think if the law of the land conflicts with God’s law then you should move to a place where the laws don’t conflict with God’s law.

W2L · Feb 6, 2019

Zoii said:
What concerns me most is that theres a good number of people who take the logic of this thread and take it up to a whole new level whereby they believe that they are above the law; in favour of God's law- These people are referred to sovereign citizens and the US FBI regards them as one of the nation's highest domestic threats.
The case belows also shows the gross stupidity of these types of people.

This thread is not about that. Its about the other extreme, where we throw out Gods law on favor of mans law only.

Zoii · Feb 6, 2019

W2L said:
This thread is not about that. Its about the other extreme, where we throw out Gods law on favor of mans law only.

Well to be fair - that wasn't stipulated - all you said in the OP was 'Who do we obey'. My post was to highlight how extreme things can be taken when its all about Gods law and not secular law.

Zoii · Feb 6, 2019

LovebirdsFlying said:
Not at the moment. If I give it some thought, I might come up with some.

Allow me to paint an example that I am faced with occasionally, where, in my opinion, secular law MUST override Christian laws.

I am a student of science but also volunteer at a women's refuge. At the office we are occasionally confronted by men insisting that the woman who left him is still his wife and demanding access to her - this despite the woman leaving and divorcing due to being repeatedly assaulted.

It may be some people's opinion that God's law takes precedence and that thus the woman is still married and should be obeying her husband and leaving the refuge.

I say - You are divorced and if your husband tries to put one toe on this property we are having him thrown in jail.

LovebirdsFlying · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
Allow me to paint an example that I am faced with occasionally, where, in my opinion, secular law MUST override Christian laws.

I am a student of science but also volunteer at a women's refuge. At the office we are occasionally confronted by men insisting that the woman who left him is still his wife and demanding access to her - this despite the woman leaving and divorcing due to being repeatedly assaulted.

It may be some people's opinion that God's law takes precedence and that thus the woman is still married and should be obeying her husband and leaving the refuge.

I say - You are divorced and if your husband tries to put one toe on this property we are having him thrown in jail.

I don't think putting a woman in danger IS God's law, even if the danger is her own husband. In the Old Testament, right along side that "God hates divorce" that legalists love to quote in order to keep abused women trapped in their marriages, you'll find harsh words about a man "dealing treacherously" with his wife. Malachi 2:14-15. In the New Testament, right alongside that "wives, submit to your husbands," you'll find instructions to husbands to love and honor their wives. Ephesians 5:25-29. He needs to present his wife to himself as "holy and without blemish," which means "don't hurt her." He should love her as he loves his own flesh, which again means "don't hurt her." No, it is not in God's will to leave her open to abuse. It may be somebody's twisted idea of God's law, but it's not His actual law. Protecting a woman from a man who is going to hurt her, even if she is married to that man, is doing His work. No contradiction with Scripture there.

Jesus discussed that kind of thinking when He talked about people tossing their money into making religious sacrifices instead of taking care of their elderly parents. Mark 7:11. He doesn't take kindly to people who use His words to look all nice and holy while hurting others rather than loving them.

Tone · Feb 7, 2019

Romans 8:7
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

The above is describing the law of sin and death.

Yah's Law is holy, has always been holy, and will never fail. Sinful man fails at submitting to it since his will is captive to sin.

When Yahuah, by His grace, sets the captive will free, by faith in Yahshua ha Mashiach, we have life in the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy breath of Yah) and we are able to submit to His holy Law, and it is not burdensome (this is freewill).

The only reason why civil "law" exists is to control sinful man who hates the Creator's Law, therefore, if there be anything declared legal by the civil authorities that is clearly against His Law, by definition, they have overstepped their role and have ceased to be authoritative and have become anti-Law.

Zoii · Feb 7, 2019

Tone said:
Romans 8:7
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

The above is describing the law of sin and death.

Yah's Law is holy, has always been holy, and will never fail. Sinful man fails at submitting to it since his will is captive to sin.

When Yahuah, by His grace, sets the captive will free, by faith in Yahshua ha Mashiach, we have life in the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy breath of Yah) and we are able to submit to His holy Law, and it is not burdensome (this is freewill).

The only reason why civil "law" exists is to control sinful man who hates the Creator's Law, therefore, if there be anything declared legal by the civil authorities that is clearly against His Law, by definition, they have overstepped their role and have ceased to be authoritative and have become anti-Law.

Now see - this is why I worry so much - You say all this and yet I get men bashing on the door of the refuge saying all that. How sinful we all are and secular law has no meaning over Gods law. All so they can drag their wife out by the hair and bash their head in.

I thank God for secular laws to stop men from using biblical verses as a weapon.

In fact when I hear men ranting biblical verses like this - I get wary. It seriously alienates me from Christianity and certainly alienates me from fundamentalist religious men - christian, islamic, hindu - such men are all the same - wanting to use God to justify their own inadequacies.

Tone · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
Now see - this is why I worry so much - You say all this and yet I get men bashing on the door of the refuge saying all that. How sinful we all are and secular law has no meaning over Gods law. All so they can drag their wife out by the hair and bash their head in.

I thank God for secular laws to stop men from using biblical verses as a weapon.

I believe @LovebirdsFlying addressed that well:

LovebirdsFlying said:
No, it is not in God's will to leave her open to abuse. It may be somebody's twisted idea of God's law, but it's not His actual law. Protecting a woman from a man who is going to hurt her, even if she is married to that man, is doing His work. No contradiction with Scripture there.

It worries me when people misconstrue the truth people present to them and caricaturize them in negative terms.

Zoii · Feb 7, 2019

Tone said:
I believe @LovebirdsFlying addressed that well:

It worries me when people misconstrue the truth people present to them and caricaturize them in negative terms.

So you agree then - We absolutely MUST have secular protection

PS - please dont think I'm putting you and your views in the same category of the men I referred to. I'm merely highlighting how your well intentioned comments are used repeatedly as weapons and why thus secular law is such a strong safety net.

Tone · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
So you agree then - We absolutely MUST have secular protection

Tone said:
The only reason why civil "law" exists is to control sinful man

Yes, because men and women must be controlled if they are harming others.

LovebirdsFlying · Feb 7, 2019

Secular laws protecting people from harm are in harmony with God's word, even if some people want to twist God's word to make it say something else. The trouble with God's law versus man's is only a problem if the two contradict.

Tone · Feb 7, 2019

Tone said:
therefore, if there be anything declared legal by the civil authorities that is clearly against His Law, by definition, they have overstepped their role and have ceased to be authoritative and have become anti-Law.

Here's where the difference is...I don't say that, when this happens, we should violently resist. I think it is important to be aware when this happens and to pray. However, this is describing a situation where the civil authorities have sanctioned a sin. We may see it for what it is and choose not to participate. When the time comes where the civil authorities declare that we must participate in a sanctioned sin, we must resist (passively) and suffer the consequences.

ace of hearts · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
What concerns me most is that theres a good number of people who take the logic of this thread and take it up to a whole new level whereby they believe that they are above the law; in favour of God's law- These people are referred to sovereign citizens and the US FBI regards them as one of the nation's highest domestic threats.
The case belows also shows the gross stupidity of these types of people.

Yes they don't have as much control. They're more like a foreign diplomat.

W2L · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
Well to be fair - that wasn't stipulated - all you said in the OP was 'Who do we obey'. My post was to highlight how extreme things can be taken when its all about Gods law and not secular law.

sure, sorry about that, but im stipulating now.

W2L · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
Allow me to paint an example that I am faced with occasionally, where, in my opinion, secular law MUST override Christian laws.

I am a student of science but also volunteer at a women's refuge. At the office we are occasionally confronted by men insisting that the woman who left him is still his wife and demanding access to her - this despite the woman leaving and divorcing due to being repeatedly assaulted.

It may be some people's opinion that God's law takes precedence and that thus the woman is still married and should be obeying her husband and leaving the refuge.

I say - You are divorced and if your husband tries to put one toe on this property we are having him thrown in jail.

But its not against Gods law to leave an abusive spouse. Not that im aware of anyway.

W2L · Feb 7, 2019

Zoii said:
Now see - this is why I worry so much - You say all this and yet I get men bashing on the door of the refuge saying all that. How sinful we all are and secular law has no meaning over Gods law. All so they can drag their wife out by the hair and bash their head in.

I thank God for secular laws to stop men from using biblical verses as a weapon.

In fact when I hear men ranting biblical verses like this - I get wary. It seriously alienates me from Christianity and certainly alienates me from fundamentalist religious men - christian, islamic, hindu - such men are all the same - wanting to use God to justify their own inadequacies.

No serious man of God would hand over a woman to an abuser, not in my opinion anyway.

Mans law or Gods law?

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