Maintaining One's Salvation Status

JacksBratt · Jan 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The inherent problem with a Faith Alone (with no works) for salvation view is that it makes a person think they do not have to do works or they can commit sin and think they are saved.

Really? This is what you honestly believe about a Christian? That they are going to look at it as a free pass to just carry on sinning?

If this is the case, then their heart was not changed.

In my experience, the conscience is louder and it's sensitivity is heightened. The Holy Spirit indwells me and I am much more aware of my sins. I do not consider myself to have a license to sin.

Oh, and we do not have to do works.. we just want to, more and more.

Jason0047 said:
But they will double speak and say that no true believer will think that way.

How is that "double speak". Anyone praying the "sinners prayer" in hopes of having a license to sin.... you gotta question what their motive was in that event.

Jason0047 said:
They are changed. So basically they are saying that works does play a part in the salvation process but it is the changed life that makes that possible.

There is NO "works" involved in the salvation process. There is loss of pride, increase of humbleness, and total repentance of the heart.

This, then, causes the entry of the Holy Spirit.. who will bring a change in the person, who will then desire.. or at least be well aware of things that they should do as prompted by the Holy Spirit and the change He brings to their attitude towards others.

Jason0047 said:
For many will say that a believer will not seek to justify sin.

I highly doubt that this is going to be true.. We all make excuses and talk ourselves out of things we should do and make excuses as to why some things are OK. Even Christians.

Jason0047 said:
But when I ask them if King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder, they say he was still saved.

Yep, but he was under a different process. Pre Calvary. Just as some say about the thief on the cross.. which is a topic for debate.

Jason0047 said:
If I ask them if a believer (Who generally lives holy) were to die in unrepentant sin like lying or lusting after a woman, they would say that he is still be saved.

Yep.. unless you think that I would disown my son, if he stole a car and ran over a person, putting them in the hospital.... I could not do that.. he is still my son...
If I can love my son that much.. how much more can the creator love me when He is the personification of love, mercy and grace.. and I have, by His own words, become one of His children?

Jason0047 said:
They think that one or two grievous sins is not enough to show that a believer is not saved.

There could be a string of sins... that are committed by a child of God... we all still sin... We have stretches of our lives where we walk closer with Jesus and some.... not so much...
But we don't have to keep going to Christ for salvation.. over and over and over.

Jason0047 said:
That God cannot separate us from His love by just one sin. But it happened in the Garden. Adam and Eve were separated by one sin.

Even we are separated from God by "one sin". That is why we ALL need salvation. Once we have salvation.. we are a child of God.. again and covered by the blood of the lamb.

Jason0047 said:
Ananias and Sapphira were also separated from God by their one sin, as well. For a great fear came upon the church about their deaths in lying to the Holy Spirit.

Do you think that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell? There is a very good argument for the view that they did not get condemned.. but went to heaven...

But, that's for another thread.[/quote][/QUOTE]

Just_a_Christian · Jan 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I have read a lot of discussion on this belief that baptism is necessary for salvation.. However, I don't hold to that view.

The thief... ya, maybe, maybe not, on the other side of the cross.. Or, just maybe the first human saved by his faith and acknowledgement as to who Christ was.

Furthermore, what you are saying is that salvation has different steps and requirements for different people..
For instance. A guy gets shipwrecked on an Island, realizes that he is going to die, digs into his childhood upbringing and Sunday school.. gets on his knees and gives himself to Christ.... Nobody is there to baptize him... he is saved without baptism.

Another guy, laying under a car at an accident. Bystander or first responder asks if he knows Jesus.. The man accepts Christ, right there, dies without baptism.

Another is saved one night at a youth group that a friend brought him to. On the way home, after giving his life to Christ, is killed in a car crash.. died without baptism.

All these different scenarios present conditions where the person was saved or gave themselves to Christ and accepted Him.. yet died without baptism.

I, personally think that baptism is a thing that should be done. But, as a public profession of faith in Christ, a dying to your old self and reemergence to a new you as a child of God.

However, I'm not going to go to the funeral of a 50 year old man that was saved in a youth rally in his 20's, attended church, did service at the church and was a fine representation as a child of God.. but was not baptized...and tell his grieving mother, father and wife that he is going to hell because he never got baptized.

This one thing is sure, without debate 100%.
Whatever I, you, Jason, David or Bill THINK does not make a hill of beans to God. Nor does what I or we think, wish or want change one word of the Bible. One theme which is constant throughout the Bible is that man does not have it within himself to know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways. The Bible teaches it is the fool that trusts or rests upon his own thoughts or understanding relating to God and what He wants from us. It is entirely possible to be a genuinely good person but still be genuinely wrong. God is the only source of knowledge regarding how we can please Him or righteous living.
As regarding the thief on the cross and which covenant he was under read the scriptues adressing that.

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:1-28
I will not trust what i think or what any other man thinks regarding salvation but I will rest on Gods word concerning me and my family for it is the man's responsibility as the spiritual leader of the household. According to God's word forgiveness of past sins occur at baptism. So, how does the scripture i have quoted make salvation different for different people? If one has not had their prior sins forgiven, how can they enter into that eternal rest?
It is God who determines who will go to heaven, not me but He did put evrrything we need to know in our hands, we but have to study it, the Bible, not mans thoughts on it.
According to His word, i can know what's required for salvation.
Whether I think one has missed the mark regarding salvation and is dead, why would anyone be coldhearted and express that to someone grieving? The person is gone and it serves no purpose to do such.

Just_a_Christian · Jan 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
There is NO "works" involved in the salvation process. There is loss of pride, increase of humbleness, and total repentance of the heart.

You did leave out one step that according to the Bible, from the dawn of creation till now, and that is obedience; according to God He has joy in the penitent heart willing to do what He says.
I know it doesn't mean anything but it does say something, in the new testament faith is mentioned approx. 336 times, works/obedience approx. 348 times
In Him

Bible Highlighter · Jan 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The inherent problem with a Faith Alone (with no works) for salvation view is that it makes a person think they do not have to do works or they can commit sin and think they are saved

JacksBratt said:
Really? This is what you honestly believe about a Christian? That they are going to look at it as a free pass to just carry on sinning?

By what many I have talked with have said using different words... “yes.”

Even you yourself have said in another thread, I quote:

“For the record... I know many "prideful" Christians. The only thing that their pride does not cloud is their knowledge of the fact that they need Christ.

Outside of that, they are no different than those that "gossip", "lie", "steal", are guilty of "gluttony", "covetousness" , "adultery" or any number of sins..... They are still children of God and Saved by Christ's blood” ~ JacksBratt.

Source
Post #68 - How would this sinner be saved, with works: Can a prideful sinner be saved if they stay prideful?
How would this sinner be saved, without works.

You are basically saying a believer can sin and still be saved in that statement.

You said:
If this is the case, then their heart was not changed.

In my experience, the conscience is louder and it's sensitivity is heightened. The Holy Spirit indwells me and I am much more aware of my sins. I do not consider myself to have a license to sin.

Unless you had a radical recent change in Soteriology, I don’t see how you previous statement in the other thread is not a license to sin.

Oh, and we do not have to do works.. we just want to, more and more.

No. There is a “have to” because our Lord tells us to do this:

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16).

Also, Paul says,
‭‭
“...and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.” (Acts of the Apostles 26:20).

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37).

You said:
How is that "double speak". Anyone praying the "sinners prayer" in hopes of having a license to sin.... you gotta question what their motive was in that event.

Men like George Sodini heard and proclaimed the same exact message of Sola Fide that most churches today preach; However, he turned out to be a mass murderer and suicide victim. He claims in his suicide letter that he was not saved by works and thus his sins were covered by his belief in Jesus. Unfortunately for him, that is not what the Bible teaches.

Just_a_Christian · Jan 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
How is that "double speak". Anyone praying the "sinners prayer" in hopes of having a license to sin.... you gotta question what their motive was in that event.

The Sinners Prayer. Please show me Bible scripture that say the sinners prayer is an option for salvation. This is a purely man made concept, foriegn to the teaching of Gods word. I have a scripture that indicates a man is unable to pray himself into a good relationship with God
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. - John 9:31
He that worships God AND doeth his will.
So, if we must do His will that is equal to obeying Him. What is His will?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 2 Thessalonians 1:8

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - John 14:21

Go ye therefore into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature that whosoever believes and is baptised shall be saved. (Mark 16:16,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10:9-10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. - 2 Corinthians 7:10

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from God's word. The gospel of Jesus Christ convicts the sinners and sorrow brings repentance. Just as on the day of Pentecost, the command is the same today.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. - Acts 2:38-39
The reference of "to all that are afar off" is talking about us, all that live between then and now plus those who will live after us.

In Him

JacksBratt · Jan 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
By what many I have talked with have said using different words... “yes.”

Well, that is unfortunate. Salvation is not a license to sin. I feel for Christianity if you think that people come to Christ so that they can sin and get away with it.

Christianity is coming to Christ for forgiveness from our sins and a plea for help in overcoming sin and being set free from it.

Jason0047 said:
Even you yourself have said in another thread, I quote:

“For the record... I know many "prideful" Christians. The only thing that their pride does not cloud is their knowledge of the fact that they need Christ.

Outside of that, they are no different than those that "gossip", "lie", "steal", are guilty of "gluttony", "covetousness" , "adultery" or any number of sins..... They are still children of God and Saved by Christ's blood” ~ JacksBratt.

True. I said that. What I did not say is that they sin and could care less that they sin. I said that Christians are not perfect and God accepts us due to Christ's righteousness. Not ours.
Christians are no different than non Christians in the fact that they are sinners.. They are different in the fact that they have admitted it and asked for forgiveness.

Non believers either don't think they are sinners, don't care, don't believe in an afterlife, don't believe Christ was who He said He was.... or.. think they are good enough and should get to heaven by what they have done themselves...

Jason0047 said:
Post #68 - How would this sinner be saved, with works: Can a prideful sinner be saved if they stay prideful?
How would this sinner be saved, without works.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ed-without-works.8087285/page-4#post-73319076
The only "works" that we are saved by are the "works" of Christ on the cross... Not our own..

Our fruit is evidence of the salvation.. not a prerequisite for it.

Jason0047 said:
You are basically saying a believer can sin and still be saved in that statement.

Darn toot'n........... Are you a Christian? Do you sin? I am.. and I do. But, I am saved... I am not in some progressive program where at the end I achieve salvation due to my actions... I am saved.. Saved now.. saved tomorrow. And, I do not sin because I can.. I sin because I cannot stop.

Jason0047 said:
Unless you had a radical recent change in Soteriology, I don’t see how you previous statement in the other thread is not a license to sin.

A license means that you have permission. God never gives permission. As humans.. it is impossible to live sinless.

Jason0047 said:
No. There is a “have to” because our Lord tells us to do this:

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16).

Yes, God wants us to do good works..not for salvation.. but to glorify Him.

JacksBratt · Jan 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Also, Paul says,
‭‭
“...and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.” (Acts of the Apostles 26:20).

You picked a translation that said it the way you need it to be said.

This is more realistic. It's that the works display the fact that they have repented and are saved..

Acts 26:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 26, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Well, that is unfortunate. Salvation is not a license to sin. I feel for Christianity if you think that people come to Christ so that they can sin and get away with it.

Christianity is coming to Christ for forgiveness from our sins and a plea for help in overcoming sin and being set free from it.

True. I said that. What I did not say is that they sin and could care less that they sin. I said that Christians are not perfect and God accepts us due to Christ's righteousness. Not ours.
Christians are no different than non Christians in the fact that they are sinners.. They are different in the fact that they have admitted it and asked for forgiveness.

Non believers either don't think they are sinners, don't care, don't believe in an afterlife, don't believe Christ was who He said He was.... or.. think they are good enough and should get to heaven by what they have done themselves...

The only "works" that we are saved by are the "works" of Christ on the cross... Not our own..

Our fruit is evidence of the salvation.. not a prerequisite for it.

Darn toot'n........... Are you a Christian? Do you sin? I am.. and I do. But, I am saved... I am not in some progressive program where at the end I achieve salvation due to my actions... I am saved.. Saved now.. saved tomorrow. And, I do not sin because I can.. I sin because I cannot stop.

This is the double message Eternal Security.

A license means that you have permission. God never gives permission. As humans.. it is impossible to live sinless.

Yes, God wants us to do good works..not for salvation.. but to glorify Him.

This is the confusing double message of Eternal Security.

The Eternal Security Proponent is saying that a person can be immoral like an atheist on some level and still be saved by having a mere belief on Jesus.

But what is confusing and deceptive is that sometimes the Eternal Security Proponent may say we are to be more Christ like on the one hand and yet on the other hand they say we can sin and still be saved and we will not stop sinning in this life. Some say they can sin 24/7 and are saved. Some say you can commit suicide and still be saved. They cannot make up their mind on what they are saying. They contradict themselves.

Eternal Security puts out two messages that conflicts with itself. On one hand Eternal Security believers say you are to be holy and then on the other hand they say you can sin and still be saved.

This is clearly wrong because the Bible talks about how we are to be distinct from the world by righteous actions. There is no compromise on doing good. If one is to be holy, then that should be a consistent teaching in everything they say. We are to lead every thought captive to Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 26, 2019

JacksBratt said:
You picked a translation that said it the way you need it to be said.

This is more realistic. It's that the works display the fact that they have repented and are saved..

Acts 26:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

I don’t see how this helps you. True repentance (seeking the Lord’s forgiveness) is demonstrated to be true by one’s deeds. If a person is still doing evil deeds, he was not really sorry. The Parable of the Two Sons (Matthew 21:28-31) alludes to this, but it makes it a point about doing God’s will.

In other words, it would sort of be like a man who says he is sorry to his wife that he cheated on her, and yet he has no real intention of ever stopping or he keeps cheating on her. Even if he felt bad a little and he wanted to sort of stop, if he does not stop, his telling his wife that he is sorry is just an empty paying of lip service and he is not really sorry.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 26, 2019

bcbsr said:
But concerning effects or indicators one has been saved, what I said holds. "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10 and like verses. In fact the major theme of 1John is distinguishing children of God from children of the devil among the Christian community. Like concerning the acceptance of the apostles teachings, like those above, it is written, "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us." 1John 4:6 Or of understanding scripture it is written, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14

Ah, you see, there you have it. Salvation is not "of works" but it certainly has works [by that I mean deeds that reveal the new man].

This is where I say to you that you must take the whole counsel of God into account.

Grace did not come to the good for Jesus came to save sinners. I believe in salvation without works but I do not believe in grace that becomes an excuse for my continuing in sin.

So you are accused of "cheap grace" and I am accused of "legalism" or salvation by works, yet I wonder if either of us believe the accusation to be true?

I said, "The works you do can either save or condemn you."

You said, "Perhaps the clearest statement of salvation by works."

I reply, "It is not. You have misunderstood me."

I too am looking at the indicators.

John wrote [1 John 3:10], "Anyone who does not do right is not a child of God."

Tell me, if I said, If you are still sinning you are not doing right therefore you are obviously not saved, how would you reply?

According to what John wrote, if you are saved you will do right and, we can conclude if you are not doing right you are not saved [I do not believe that John intended this applied in every case but there are cases where continuing in sin reveals that the new nature is not evident.]

If I teach that it is okay to keep sinning because grace took care of it, am I teaching what Christ and his apostles taught? I see no indication in Scripture that this is so.

Take a look at the indicators you put forth, my brother, you may find we are saying the same thing: if you are truly saved it will show, if not, that will show also. That is all I am saying of the works of faith and righteousness they show you are saved; how can you show you are saved without them and, if you are without them are you truly saved?

I always try to get people to look at both sides of the coin.

JacksBratt · Jan 27, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is the confusing double message of Eternal Security.

The Eternal Security Proponent is saying that a person can be immoral like an atheist on some level and still be saved by having a mere belief on Jesus.

The salvation that we receive from Christ is due to our acceptance of the fact that He is our savior... We are sinners... He died for our sins... and we can do nothing of ourselves... He and only He can save us.

Atheists are guilty of rejecting Him. You cannot be saved by a savior that you fail to acknowledge.

How can you stand before Him, after death, and expect to be given forgiveness from someone you denied by the power that Christ was given to forgive your sins?

We are all immoral and sinful creatures... even after salvation we continue to sin.
It's just that we are covered by Christ's blood.

Again, it is not a license to sin. That is a sinful and unrepentant attitude.

Jason0047 said:
But what is confusing and deceptive is that sometimes the Eternal Security Proponent may say we are to be more Christ like on the one hand and yet on the other hand they say we can sin and still be saved and we will not stop sinning in this life. Some say they can sin 24/7 and are saved. Some say you can commit suicide and still be saved. They cannot make up their mind on what they are saying. They contradict themselves.

I am not saying that those that commit suicide go to hell. How can we know the demons that others face. The depression, the constant battle with a skewed reality?

Only Christ can judge the heart. He will justly determine their fate based on Him being all knowing and supreme righteousness.

Those that say "Oh I can sin 24/7 and all is good" is quite different that those that say "I try not to sin but, no matter what, I slip up and sin".

Jason0047 said:
Eternal Security puts out two messages that conflicts with itself. On one hand Eternal Security believers say you are to be holy and then on the other hand they say you can sin and still be saved.

We do sin and remain saved.

Like a spoiled young man, living off of his rich fathers estate... doing things that his father is ashamed of... yet.. he is still his fathers son.

It is not the norm. The majority of Christians are not getting on their knees in humbleness and giving their lives to their savior.. then taking the attitude that they have a free pass to run amuck in the world.

I would question their true repentance.

I will say that there are those, that, due to events in their lives.. back slide and behave in non Christian ways... These people are not lost in the eternal sense. These are the sheep that Christ will go and find again.. they are still His sheep.

Jason0047 said:
This is clearly wrong because the Bible talks about how we are to be distinct from the world by righteous actions. There is no compromise on doing good. If one is to be holy, then that should be a consistent teaching in everything they say. We are to lead every thought captive to Christ.

You are right. We are to shine so others can see Christ in us. Agreed. We are in the world, not of the world.

But, we still sin... It is Satan's lie that we are supposed to somehow never sin again... or that we lose our salvation when we sin.

Christ set us free from the bondage of sin... Satan wants you to think that you are bound by it.

JacksBratt · Jan 27, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I don’t see how this helps you. True repentance (seeking the Lord’s forgiveness) is demonstrated to be true by one’s deeds. If a person is still doing evil deeds, he was not really sorry. The Parable of the Two Sons (Matthew 21:28-31) alludes to this, but it makes it a point about doing God’s will.

In other words, it would sort of be like a man who says he is sorry to his wife that he cheated on her, and yet he has no real intention of ever stopping or he keeps cheating on her. Even if he felt bad a little and he wanted to sort of stop, if he does not stop, his telling his wife that he is sorry is just an empty paying of lip service and he is not really sorry.

Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

JacksBratt · Jan 27, 2019

Just_a_Christian said:
The Sinners Prayer. Please show me Bible scripture that say the sinners prayer is an option for salvation. This is a purely man made concept, foriegn to the teaching of Gods word. I have a scripture that indicates a man is unable to pray himself into a good relationship with God
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. - John 9:31
He that worships God AND doeth his will.
So, if we must do His will that is equal to obeying Him. What is His will?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 2 Thessalonians 1:8

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - John 14:21

Go ye therefore into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature that whosoever believes and is baptised shall be saved. (Mark 16:16,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10:9-10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. - 2 Corinthians 7:10

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from God's word. The gospel of Jesus Christ convicts the sinners and sorrow brings repentance. Just as on the day of Pentecost, the command is the same today.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. - Acts 2:38-39
The reference of "to all that are afar off" is talking about us, all that live between then and now plus those who will live after us.

In Him

I know that there is no "Magic" sinners prayer. I was basically using that term to indicate that the individual did whatever you or anyone else would accept as being adequate to result in salvation.

BNR32FAN · Jan 27, 2019

bcbsr said:
Maintaining One's Salvation Status

Many of the "Salvation by faith in works" Christian have proposed that one is "initially saved" by faith alone, but then must maintain their salvation status by living up to some standard of performance to be "finally saved", thus making salvation out to be contingent upon one's performance. Thus one's trust is in their own performance to "finally" saved them, which is salvation by faith in works.

But the point I wish to make and discuss is the inherent contradiction in terms of their initial premise - parsing "initial" salvation from "final" salvation. Can it be said that a person "has been saved" from going to hell if that fate is dependent upon his ongoing performance? No, logically it cannot be said.

One could logically say, based on their premise, that a person, having "believed" has the possibility of being saved, contingent upon whether he lives up to it, but under such a soteriology one cannot make the statement using the prefect tense -

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

Awesome so you believe Paul is talking to believers who are saved in Ephesians. I’m glad because that saves me some time I don’t have to establish that point. So now let’s continue to Ephesians 5.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here we see Paul is warning these very same people who are believers and who are saved not to engage in acts of immortal behavior lest they will face the wrath of God which comes on the sons of disobedience. By this we can see that children of God can become sons of disobedience, otherwise Paul’s warning to these saved believers is completely useless and warning them of doing something that, according to those who advocate eternal security, would be completely impossible.

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN · Jan 27, 2019

bcbsr said:
Maintaining One's Salvation Status

Many of the "Salvation by faith in works" Christian have proposed that one is "initially saved" by faith alone, but then must maintain their salvation status by living up to some standard of performance to be "finally saved", thus making salvation out to be contingent upon one's performance. Thus one's trust is in their own performance to "finally" saved them, which is salvation by faith in works.

But the point I wish to make and discuss is the inherent contradiction in terms of their initial premise - parsing "initial" salvation from "final" salvation. Can it be said that a person "has been saved" from going to hell if that fate is dependent upon his ongoing performance? No, logically it cannot be said.

One could logically say, based on their premise, that a person, having "believed" has the possibility of being saved, contingent upon whether he lives up to it, but under such a soteriology one cannot make the statement using the prefect tense -

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

What are your thoughts on this OP?

Faith without works is faith without love

Bible Highlighter · Jan 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

It doesn't matter if one is aiming for a sinless day or not. Good intentions while teaching that one can sin and still be saved on some level is still teaching a doctrine of immorality. For what does Jude 1:4 even mean to you (from your view on salvation)? For if one teaches that a person is not saved by anything they do and they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus, then it can lead people to treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level. In fact, the reality is that OSAS or a Belief Alone type faith has already led many others to turn God's grace into a license for immorality but you want to ignore that fact. For George Sodini has already murdered people and then he committed suicide thinking he was secure in his salvation by having a belief on Jesus (Which is a part of his testimony in his suicide letter). Many have committed suicide because they thought they would be safe and secure in their salvation by having a belief on Jesus. Are you unsaved if you happen to sin on occasion? If that is what you believe, then you can treat God's grace as a license to sin (Just as much as George Sodini). In fact, you admitted in another post that you can sin and still be saved, but the key difference (in your opinion) is that you strive not to sin (Which somehow makes it all better). Sorry, good intentions or striving not to sin and yet on the other hand teaching you can sin and still be saved is not a standard of upholding God's goodness or morality. We have to confess and forsake sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). For Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (Matthew 7:22-23). Spreading a gospel that can and has led people into sin is working iniquity. Even if the Eternal Security Preacher were to somehow achieve sinlessness themselves, and their fellow brother is slipping into hell by justifying sin by a teaching from their own preacher's mouth that says they are not saved by anything they do, their blood will be on that preacher's hands.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 is a verse that I came across just recently in a Bible study on another topic.

It says this:

"...warn them that are unruly," (1 Thessalonians 5:14).

How exactly are you doing that?
How does that even make sense in your belief?
If a person is saved by a belief on Jesus, they can live unruly.
What would be the purpose of warning them if they cannot be unsaved by sin or by being "unruly"? Stop, and think about it.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

Also, there are unbelievers who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior and they believe Jesus is the Savior but they do not want to give up their life of sin because of Jesus. They will admit the Bible is true, but they will not want to give their life to Jesus or follow Jesus. Even the young rich ruler acknowledged that Jesus is the "Good Master" but he was not willing to give up his sin of riches in order to follow Jesus. He kept the moral law, but he was unwilling to do all of what Jesus said by giving up his riches to follow Jesus.

Also, there is no difference morality wise between the atheist and the believer who teaches they can sin and still be saved on some level. There are atheists who do keep certain moral laws and they also strive to be good in the keeping of these moral laws. But the problem is that they justify sin and evil just as much as most Christians today do. There is no real difference between them morally speaking. Sure, you may have some Christians living a little better, but in many cases, you cannot tell them apart (Which you even yourself have admitted before). But the Bible says this....

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

There are atheists (not all of them - mind you) who strive to live a good and moral life. Take Star Trek as an example (Created by a man who is an atheist). For the show promotes atheism on Star Trek and yet the characters hold to a certain code of conduct (even unto death). They believe in holding certain good laws to the betterment of mankind. Even the character on Star Trek called Picard says they strive to better themselves. Picard is a character who is in most people's minds a hero because he stands behind certain moral principles. Yet, many atheists love this show and stand behind what it says. You also say that you strive to hold to better yourself. So what separates the difference between you and the character of Picard (or those who seek to mimic his good behavior and yet they are an atheist)? Sure, Picard's morality may not be exactly in line with the morality of the Bible in all cases, but lets say that it was. What would separate you in being different as a Christian? A mere belief? Even the demons believe and tremble. What if an axe murder professed to their soon to be new victim that they believe in Jesus? Would they be saved if they genuinely believed in Jesus? I would say that such an individual is not saved. Yet, you seem to think Christians can commit other sins and it is okay because they are striving not to do those sins, but yet you say they will do those sins because no believer can overcome sin this side of heaven. So it then boils down to what sins are more acceptable and that you can do and yet still be saved, right? Lying? Lusting after a woman? That's not like murder so you can probably stumble in doing that every once in a while and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus?

BNR32FAN · Jan 27, 2019

Jason0047 said:
It doesn't matter if one is aiming for a sinless day or not. Good intentions while teaching that one can sin and still be saved on some level is still teaching a doctrine of immorality. For what does Jude 1:4 even mean to you (from your view on salvation)? For if one teaches that a person is not saved by anything they do and they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus, then it can lead people to treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level. In fact, the reality is that OSAS or a Belief Alone type faith has already led many others to turn God's grace into a license for immorality but you want to ignore that fact. For George Sodini has already murdered people and then he committed suicide thinking he was secure in his salvation by having a belief on Jesus (Which is a part of his testimony in his suicide letter). Many have committed suicide because they thought they would be safe and secure in their salvation by having a belief on Jesus. Are you unsaved if you happen to sin on occasion? If that is what you believe, then you can treat God's grace as a license to sin (Just as much as George Sodini). In fact, you admitted in another post that you can sin and still be saved, but the key difference (in your opinion) is that you strive not to sin (Which somehow makes it all better). Sorry, good intentions or striving not to sin and yet on the other hand teaching you can sin and still be saved is not a standard of upholding God's goodness or morality. We have to confess and forsake sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). For Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (Matthew 7:22-23). Spreading a gospel that can and has led people into sin is working iniquity. Even if the Eternal Security Preacher were to somehow achieve sinlessness themselves, and their fellow brother is slipping into hell by justifying sin by a teaching from their own preacher's mouth that says they are not saved by anything they do, their blood will be on that preacher's hands.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 is a verse that I came across just recently in a Bible study on another topic.

It says this:

"...warn them that are unruly," (1 Thessalonians 5:14).

How exactly are you doing that?
How does that even make sense in your belief?
If a person is saved by a belief on Jesus, they can live unruly.
What would be the purpose of warning them if they cannot be unsaved by sin or by being "unruly"? Stop, and think about it.

Personally I believe the word faith according to the Greek definition implies devotion which results in obedience and works.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 27, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Jason, it is not my ability to think as God thinks. You are thinking as a man. You are using logic of man. You are falling into the lie of Satan.

As a Christian, I am continually aiming for a sinless day. Those that are not saved... are not continually aiming for a sinless day.. nor do they care. They have not even acknowledged that they are sinners. Or.. that Christ is their savior.. Or that they need salvation...

That is what saves them... Acknowledgement of the fact that they are sinners that need Christ.. and Acknowledgement that Christ is their savior.

Then, and only then, are you free from the bondage of sin... not free from sinning.. but free from the debt of sin.

God gave us brains for a reason. Also, it is absolute silly to think that your belief in a sin and still be saved type doctrine is against what Satan wants. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. You admit that you will sin, but you simply strive not to sin so that somehow makes you better. The Bible does not say what you say. It says he that commits sin is of the devil. The devil wants people to sin and or to justify sin. The Bible says even the demons believe and tremble. So what separates your belief as being any different than the belief of demons? They also acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God.

Maintaining One's Salvation Status

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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