IS The CHURCH The FULFILLMENT of ISRAEL? Replacement Theology

BABerean2 · Jan 23, 2019

Pedra said:
No that is wrong. None of the Apostles could be called Anti-Semites. We cannot just redefine the word Anti-semitism, it is specific. Jesus was born a Jew, He was a Rabbi/ a teacher and He was is not Anti-Semetic. He had no hostility towards the Jews because of their race for being Jews, the Lord had specific criticisms for these religious leaders , He criticized the pharisees for their man-made religious doctrines, & their religious hypocrisy, their religious blindness etc.

Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Some of us cannot tell the difference between the faithful remnant and the Baal worshipers found in Romans 11:1-5.
God did not make any "everlasting" promise to those who bow down to the image of Baal.

.

Pedra · Jan 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Ok.. we might now be getting somewhere

And neither does anyone here that you've accused!

Show us even ONE post from me or anyone that claims hatred of the Jews because of their "race".

In Fact, you are the only one here who has claimed that MOST of the Jews DESERVE to be slaughtered in the soon coming "Great Trib" because of their race...

Right...
But I guess if you were standing there, then, you would have told Jesus to NOT Criticize them because God has a Special plan for them?

.. and the current religious and political leaders in modern Israel?
Would Jesus criticize them for their continued unbelief in Him?
Would you criticize them the way Jesus did?

Why are you accusing anyone who has simply mirrored Jesus in their criticism of modern Israel's "man-made religious doctrines, & their religious hypocrisy, their religious blindness etc".

You seem to want it both ways....

Folks, This is Futurism's dangerous ambiguity toward the Jews on clear display for all to see. Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

You misrepresent once again, but what else is new here?
I said the false doctrine Replacement Theology is rooted in Anti-Semetism . The harping on some scriptures but ignoring others to justify the replacement theology is based upon heretical beliefs & false teachings. Claiming when GOD said HE made an everlasting covenant but has changed that is an attack upon God's word, and God's character. Did HE not foreknow them??? Is HE a Capricious GOD? the Bible clearly states HE IS NOT so like men are. Condemning Jews for the death of Jesus is what the early RCC did & it spread to many denominations, wanting to remove them from their land which GOD gave them is rooted in Anti-Semitism. I've noted that all who cling to this false doctrine..... well, it is just the tip of the iceberg that reveals the many foundational issues, unbiblical beliefs & heresies in some denominations.

parousia70 · Jan 23, 2019

Pedra said:
You misrepresent once again, but what else is new here?

Prove it. I misrepresent nothing... you, on the other hand...

I said the false doctrine Replacement Theology is rooted in Anti-Semetism .

And I said the false doctrine of Dispensational Futurism is rooted in Anti-Semitism.

One of us is correct. My money is on me.

The harping on some scriptures but ignoring others to justify the replacement theology is based upon heretical beliefs & false teachings.

The harping on some scriptures but ignoring others to justify dispensational futurism is based upon heretical beliefs & false teachings.

Claiming when GOD said HE made an everlasting covenant but has changed that is an attack upon God's word, and God's character.

Who made that claim? no one here.
Red Herring. Straw Man.

Why not argue against what we ACTUALLY believe, instead of making up something we do not believe, then attributing that belief we do NOT hold to us anyway, then tearing down that belief as if we did hold it, then claiming victory over us because you tore down a beliefe we do not hold....

Did HE not foreknow them??? Is HE a Capricious GOD? the Bible clearly states HE IS NOT so like men are.

Every Hebrew under the Old Covenant either Followed Israels Messiah in the 1st century or was cut off from the covenant.

THAT is what the Bible teaches.

You are teaching the OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the Apostles taught regarding the Identity of Israel.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

You, in stark contrast to Paul (and Moses), Insist this very bizarre idea of who Israel is, as you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham, claiming they are something else entirely. That those Obedient, Faithful Sons of Abraham, through their faith and obedience to the King of Israel, somehow stopped being Israel!

Your's is the real "Replacement Theology".
You have Replaced Faithful Obedient Israel with Wicked Disobedient Israel as Heirs to the promises!

You view is akin to claiming that National Israel NEVER ENTERED THE PROMISED LAND after wandering in the desert 40 years, since the majority of them were slain in the wilderness for their unbelief, and only the believing remnant (something you claim is NOT Israel) entered.

Such is Untenable to any Honest expositor of Scripture.
Again, The Prophets and Apostles teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming here friend.
I recommend you bring your view in line with scripture.

LastSeven · Jan 23, 2019

Pedra said:
Claiming when GOD said HE made an everlasting covenant but has changed that is an attack upon God's word, and God's character.

parousia70 said:
Why not argue against what we ACTUALLY believe, instead of making up something we do not believe, then attributing that belief we do NOT hold to us anyway, then tearing down that belief as if we did hold it, then claiming victory over us because you tore down a belief we do not hold....

This.

martymonster · Jan 23, 2019

The Jews were only God's chosen people in type.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 23, 2019

Pedra said:
Condemning Jews for the death of Jesus is what the early RCC did & it spread to many denominations, wanting to remove them from their land which GOD gave them is rooted in Anti-Semitism. I've noted that all who cling to this false doctrine..... well, it is just the tip of the iceberg that reveals the many foundational issues, unbiblical beliefs & heresies in some denominations.

A lot of bloodshed in the name of religion over the centuries.

John 16:2
Putting out of the synagogue they shall be doing ye,
but is coming an hour that every the one killing ye should be supposing a divine service to be offering to the God!

The innocent slaughtered with the guilty......woman, children.........
1,000,000 Jews slaughtered by the Romans in 70ad because of the Sins of the Judean Rulers........sad

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

====================

Matthew 23:35
"So-that may be coming upon ye all just blood being poured out upon the land, from the blood of Abel the Righteous-one, till of the blood of Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom ye murder<5407> between the sanctuary and the altar

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye murder<5407 the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

1 thess 2:14
14For you became imitators, brothers, of the churches of God in Judea being in Christ Jesus. For the same as them, you also suffered from the own countrymen as they also did from the Jews, 15who having killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and having driven us out, and not pleasing God, are also set against all men,
16forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, so as always to fill up their sins.
Now the wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform/repent out of their murders<5408> of them,
nor out from their sorceries,...........

Maria Billingsley · Jan 23, 2019

Pedra said:
http://www.reallifewithjackhibbs.org
Pastor Jack's special guest this week is Dr. Paul Wilkinson. Together they explore the issues of Replacement Theology, the land of Israel and the Jewish people.

PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO and then you are welcome to comment upon the material presented & discussed by Pastor Jack Hibbs and Dr. David Wilkinson

It is One Vine ISRAEL. Some are broken and fall to the ground never to be reattached, (non-believing Jews). Some are grafted into the vine (Gentiles) and become part of Israel.
It is all ONE-Israel- both Jew and Gentile=Body of Christ.

Now what to do with the Jews who fell to the ground and will never be attached is how you define your Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Is He the truth and the life?

Choose Wisely · Jan 23, 2019

keras said:
But nowhere does the Bible say they will all accept Jesus; only a remnant will and that remnant has to be Jews who become Christians NOW. There is no second chance for anyone, Jew or Gentile.

You seem to be confusing the remnant of Israel that goes through the wrath of God with the twelve tribes that are brought to salvation during the tribulation. God says how much more will the fullness of the Jew verses the Gentile be. This verse pretty much disproves replacement theology all by itself.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

parousia70 · Jan 23, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
You seem to be confusing the remnant of Israel that goes through the wrath of God with the twelve tribes that are brought to salvation during the tribulation. God says how much more will the fullness of the Jew verses the Gentile be. This verse pretty much disproves replacement theology all by itself.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Since Fulness is the opposite of Fall in this passage, and not a numeric value, what is your point?

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 23, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
You seem to be confusing the remnant of Israel that goes through the wrath of God with the twelve tribes that are brought to salvation during the tribulation.

A remnant was saved in 70ad.
The Christian Jews that fled when they heard the Roman army was on it's way

Matthew 24:
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;
but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Mark 13:20
"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved;
but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Luke 21:
23 “Yet woe! to those being pregnant and those nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress/necesity upon the land and wrath upon this people
24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 13:10 [Luke 21:24]
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

Mic 5:8
And the remnant of Jacob Shall be among the Gentiles,
In the midst of many peoples,
Like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
Like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
Who, if he passes through,
Both treads down and tears in pieces,
And none can deliver.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/christian-flight-to-pella-study-archive/
Christian Flight to Pella

Luke 21:20-22
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.” RSV

Eusebius: “The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella.” Book III, 5:4
=====================
Epiphanius (375)
“The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began.” (Panarion 29:7:7-8)

“Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed..” (Panarion 30:2:7)

jgr · Jan 23, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
You seem to be confusing the remnant of Israel that goes through the wrath of God with the twelve tribes that are brought to salvation during the tribulation. God says how much more will the fullness of the Jew verses the Gentile be. This verse pretty much disproves replacement theology all by itself.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 9:27; Isaiah 10:22
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

You seem to be confusing the salvation of the remnant with the wrath of the remainder.

Choose Wisely · Jan 23, 2019

parousia70 said:
Since Fulness is the opposite of Fall in this passage, and not a numeric value, what is your point?

The weak cry to others for help.
And the blind lead others astray.
The Jew has been blinded
And yet they will see.
And the fullness will be greater than that of the Gentile.
Ouch.

bèlla · Jan 23, 2019

It is always interesting to be a fly on the wall and hear what others think. I am glad this thread was started.

jgr · Jan 23, 2019

martymonster said:
The Jews were only God's chosen people in type.

Faithful and obedient Jews were God's Chosen People in reality. (1 Kings 19:18)

Unfaithful and disobedient Jews invariably ended up prematurely dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Physical DNA was and is irrelevant.

Only spiritual DNA matters.

keras · Jan 23, 2019

Choose Wisely said:
The weak cry to others for help.
And the blind lead others astray.
The Jew has been blinded
And yet they will see.
And the fullness will be greater than that of the Gentile.
Ouch.

Is that scripture or just a ditty to support a false belief?

martymonster · Jan 23, 2019

jgr said:
Faithful and obedient Jews were God's Chosen People in reality. (1 Kings 19:18)

Unfaithful and disobedient Jews invariably ended up prematurely dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Physical DNA was and is irrelevant.

Only spiritual DNA matters.

I assume you disagree with my statement, I'm not really sure though. Those scriptures you posted, don't really prove, what I'm guessing is your position.

Do you know what types and shadows are? Do you understand that everything in the old testament, is a shadow and a type?

Let me ask you something. Do you know why pigs are an unclean animal? Why would God make pigs, if he has something against them?

Brian Mcnamee · Jan 23, 2019

that is reasonable ill take a note on the purple type/

Choose Wisely said:
Lol. Years ago there was no way to keep up with your post. There was not alerts and such. To find your post you had to scan through all the posts. Best way to find them was to use a special color or font. I just never changed when things improved.

jgr · Jan 24, 2019

martymonster said:
I assume you disagree with my statement, I'm not really sure though. Those scriptures you posted, don't really prove, what I'm guessing is your position.

Do you know what types and shadows are? Do you understand that everything in the old testament, is a shadow and a type?

Let me ask you something. Do you know why pigs are an unclean animal? Why would God make pigs, if he has something against them?

Yes, the faithful and obedient within OT Israel foreshadowed the NT Church.

martymonster · Jan 24, 2019

jgr said:
Yes, the faithful and obedient within OT Israel foreshadowed the NT Church.

Sorry, I thought you were trying to rebut what I'd said.

Choose Wisely · Jan 24, 2019

keras said:
Is that scripture or just a ditty to support a false belief?

You're close. It's what's known as a doozy.

IS The CHURCH The FULFILLMENT of ISRAEL? Replacement Theology

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