sacrifice your son?

oldhermit said:

Job is not talking about the resurrection but the state of the righteous after death.

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No, he is saying even if my body is eaten by worms, in my flesh I will see God, I think I quoted tge wrong verse, it's Job 19:26.

Hieronymus said:

Like killing your son?

Yes, there was this thing i can't recall correctly..
But it was different though...
Something about this guy swearing he would kill the first person he saw, and it was his daughter...
I may be off on this one...

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You are referring to Jephthah in Judges 11. This has absolutely no parallel. First of all, God had not commanded Jephthah to offer as a burnt offering whatever came out of the doors of his house to meet him. Jephthah made that vow of his own accord and he fulfilled that vow according to the demands of the Law of Moses.

Hieronymus said:

Like killing your son?

Yes, there was this thing i can't recall correctly..
But it was different though...
Something about this guy swearing he would kill the first person he saw, and it was his daughter...
I may be off on this one...

Click to expand...

From Judges 11: 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." 36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." 38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

From Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets.

What more need be said? Jephthah made a silly promise to God. It is strongly suggested that God grants him the victory --- either that or he earned it on his own (not God’s) merit. He goes ahead with the human sacrifice of his own daughter. How could a father do such thing? And the citation from Hebrews reckons it to him as righteousness. Truly, biblical family values are somewhat wanting.

Jon Osterman said:

No. It is perfectly reasonable on God's part. He makes this request to demonstrate a principle - that he is a New God. Remember that this was a society where human sacrifice was not uncommon, but God stops Abraham, thereby demonstrating that he is not the sort of God that would require us to sacrifice our child to Him, even though he is exactly the sort of God who would sacrifice His son for us.

When I say Abraham is a psychopath, I am meaning in the clinical sense, in that he has an inability to empathise and connect on an emotional level. That doesn't make him any less worthy to be the father of Judaism - indeed maybe it makes him more suited to God's purpose.

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So you propose that his admirable faith in God made him a psychopath?

oldhermit said:

The apostle Paul alludes to this in Romans 8:32 saying, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" Also, In Hebrews 11:17-19, the Hebrews writer tells us that, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, 'In Isaac shall you descendants be called.' He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."

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The problem I see here is that I believe God over his apostles and other writings. When God speaks it is correct. And God's teachings appears to be in conflict with some of what's written of in scripture. God even rebuked the apostles for their beliefs: Matthew 17:1-6 He in fact said, listen to Jesus instead.

And as you pointed out it says God delivered Jesus over but it doesn't say God killed him. So as I said the scripture was fulfilled by the wicked hearts of men misunderstanding God's sacrifice to deliver Jesus over. So then why would Abraham killing his son be like God who in fact didn't kill his own son? He simply delivered him into the hands of those that would kill his son.

oldhermit said:

You are referring to Jephthah in Judges 11. This has absolutely no parallel. First of all, God had not commanded Jephthah to offer as a burnt offering whatever came out of the doors of his house to meet him. Jephthah made that vow of his own accord and he fulfilled that vow according to the demands of the Law of Moses.

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Yes yes... So there is no other story in the Bible that WOULD be comparable.

Hieronymus said:

So you propose that his admirable faith in God made him a psychopath?

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No - not the will to do it. But the ability to do it. To be fair, the verse is not very clear how far Abraham got. He had taken the knife to kill him but maybe he wasn't quite there yet. I have always read it as if Abraham is on the point of killing Isaac and is really going to do it, but maybe that is a false interpretation.

Jon Osterman said:

No. It is perfectly reasonable on God's part. He makes this request to demonstrate a principle - that he is a New God. Remember that this was a society where human sacrifice was not uncommon, but God stops Abraham, thereby demonstrating that he is not the sort of God that would require us to sacrifice our child to Him, even though he is exactly the sort of God who would sacrifice His son for us.

When I say Abraham is a psychopath, I am meaning in the clinical sense, in that he has an inability to empathise and connect on an emotional level. That doesn't make him any less worthy to be the father of Judaism - indeed maybe it makes him more suited to God's purpose.

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I think it is presumptuous to think that Abraham was incapable of empathy toward Isaac. The Lord knew full well how Abraham felt toward Isaac. "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." Remember, this stands as a type of the crucifixion of Christ. Do you believe that God felt no empathy for Christ when he was hung on that cross?

Jon Osterman said:

No - not the will to do it. But the ability to do it. To be fair, the verse is not very clear how far Abraham got. He had taken the knife to kill him but maybe he wasn't quite there yet. I have always read it as if Abraham is on the point of killing Isaac and is really going to do it, but maybe that is a false interpretation.

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I think he was going to do it.
God told him too, and he trusted in God's wisdom, without understanding it.
Isn't that something we are supposed to do also?
(no not killing our child, but trusting in Him without understanding God, his plans and motivations)
Abraham was like: Okay, God wants / commands me to do this, and who am i to doubt his Wisdom?
Let's not forget that Abraham communicated with God and that obviously would help a lot in submitting to Him all the way.

Hieronymus said:

Yes yes... So there is no other story in the Bible that WOULD be comparable.

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There is also no example in scripture that even implies that God was in any way understanding when someone refused to obey him.

mark kennedy said:

No, he is saying even if my body is eaten by worms, in my flesh I will see God, I think I quoted tge wrong verse, it's Job 19:26.

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You are correct. I misread that verse. Good point.

JackRT said:

From Judges 11: 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." 36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." 38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

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Thanks for posting that.
A dreadful story in all, though...
I mean, come on..
Very different times though, very different mind sets.
The daughter being so sad, not because she was going to die by the hands of her father, but because she never got to marry (and have children).
Unimaginable in our day and age..
Quite grim still..

From Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets.

What more need be said? Jephthah made a silly promise to God. It is strongly suggested that God grants him the victory --- either that or he earned it on his own (not God’s) merit. He goes ahead with the human sacrifice of his own daughter. How could a father do such thing? And the citation from Hebrews reckons it to him as righteousness. Truly, biblical family values are somewhat wanting.

Click to expand...

Quite..
A ghastly example of "promises made, promises kept"..
I don't understand God in this either.
But then again, i don't understand quite a few things God allows to happen...
I feel this could have easily been turned around.
"So, Jephthah, you've gotten yourself in quite a pickle now, with your boastful talk, haven't you?
Now what are we gonna do about this then?"
....fill in the blanks...
Lesson learned, message clear, and they all lived happily ever after...

...but who am i...

oldhermit said:

There is also no example in scripture that even implies that God was in any way understanding when someone refused to obey him.

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True, but nothing compares to this.

devin553344 said:

The problem I see here is that I believe God over his apostles and other writings. When God speaks it is correct. And God's teachings appears to be in conflict with some of what's written of in scripture. God even rebuked the apostles for their beliefs: Matthew 17:1-6 He in fact said, listen to Jesus instead.

And as you pointed out it says God delivered Jesus over but it doesn't say God killed him. So as I said the scripture was fulfilled by the wicked hearts of men misunderstanding God's sacrifice to deliver Jesus over. So then why would Abraham killing his son be like God who in fact didn't kill his own son? He simply delivered him into the hands of those that would kill his son.

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I should also point out that Jesus gave up the Ghost and that he alone offered himself up to God at God's command John 19:30 , John 10:17-18 . So in fact Abraham killing his son would be nothing like God delivering his son into the hands of the wicked. Jesus killed himself on the cross at his fathers command. So then why didn't God command Abraham to offer himself up? It still doesn't really make any sense to me. It has no likeness to Abraham. Shouldn't God then have commanded Abraham to commanded his son to kill himself? Which is still craziness.

Hieronymus said:

Thanks for posting that.
A dreadful story in all, though...
I mean, come on..
Very different times though, very different mind sets.
The daughter being so sad, not because she was going to die by the hands of her father, but because she never got to marry (and have children).
Unimaginable in our day and age..
Quite grim still..
Quite..
A ghastly example of "promises made, promises kept"..
I don't understand God in this either.
But then again, i don't understand quite a few things God allows to happen...
I feel this could have easily been turned around.
"So, Jephthah, you've gotten yourself in quite a pickle now, with your boastful talk, haven't you?
Now what are we gonna do about this then?"
....fill in the blanks...
Lesson learned, message clear, and they all lived happily ever after...

...but who am i...

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I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the story of Jephthah. Jephthah vowed to offer as a burnt offering whatever came out of his door to meet him. Under the Law, when a child was dedicated to God it was reckoned as an offering of consecration. All such offerings were substituted at the altar by a lamb. The child then belonged to the service of God. Jephthah's daughter mourned her virginity, not because she was to be killed, but because now she would never marry and since she was Jephthah's only child, he would never have grandchildren. See also the law of firstborn redemption in Exodus 12. This applied the firstborn sons of Israel who were to be redeemed with the sacrifice of a lamb. No child was allowed to sacrificed on the altar. This was forbidden under the law of Moses.

let me point out some scriptures: Genesis 22:1 Now it says "tempted" not "tested" or "proved" in the KJV that I actually read. But in the NT James records: James 1:13 . Which makes more sense of these passages. That there is an error in the account of Abraham being tempted by God.

Perhaps a better example of this would be the redemption of the dedicated child in Leviticus 27:1ff. The dedication of Samuel in 1 Samuel 1:28 which says that the child Samuel was to be "dedicated him to the Lord; as long as he lives he is dedicated to the Lord."

oldhermit said:

You are correct. I misread that verse. Good point.

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Job also said he cherished God's Word more then his daily bread.


Job was receiving revelation directly, we talk about Christianity not being a religion but a relationship, Job epitomizes it. His apology that silenced his critics, is a gut wrenching prayer stating, if I did anything to deserve this let him destroy me. What he didn't know was that he was in trouble because God was bragging on him. My favorite part was after God goes on for chapters just giving him the business, turns to his friends and says, as for you guys, if my man Job makes sacrifice I will forgive you. Because you haven't spoken of me rightly, like my man Job. That's the praise that comes from God rather then man.

Anyway, Job has always been my favorite book in the Bible, the first one I studied in depth. Just thought I'd toss in a little exposition. Oh and by the way, did you know Job was the only one who prayed during the discourse. You can distinctly see where Job was no longer addressing his friends and spoke directly to God.

Grace and peace,
Mark

OP never came back to the thread.

stirring the pot maybe?

If we take the story literally, it's abhorent, even nonsensical. So obviously, the literal meaning of the story isn't the one we should focus on.