New to Christianity entirely. Need advice.

Sm412 · Nov 25, 2018

So I recently, as in a few weeks ago, accepted Christ into my heart and life. I progressed from atheism to to agnosticism (believing in God but being non-religious) to Christianity over a 10 year period. I am deeply moved and inspired by the truths, sacrifices, and foundations Christ laid for us.

Anyway, exploring the various denominations has been...... mind boggling. There are several things that are very important to me:

1. I need the denomination to resonate with me politically. I am very accepting of LGBT people. Your views on it are your views, but I do not tolerate oppression or even outright condemnation of such people. Love thy neighbor. Let people be who and how they want to be. I also find the reverence for the rich and hatred of the poor to be massively hypocritical and directly against Christ's teachings. I will help the poor regardless of any fault they have in their own poverty by ANY MEANS, be it tax dollars or direct charity. It is important that my denomination share in these values.
2. I am a stickler for formality and tradition. I like structured services. I love me some music too. The rock band thing is cool, so are choirs. Just... music. However, I believe a balance must be struck between tradition and modernism. Too much tradition and we're living in the 11th century. Too much modernism and we aren't even following the teachings of Christ anymore.
3. I believe faith is fully reconcilable with science. I don't want to have to "check my brain at the door" or put my fingers in my ears every time a scientist speaks.
4. I am an unapologetic universalist, that is, I believe in universal salvation. All will eventually be brought into the grace of God. I don't dig the hell heavy stuff.

So given all of this, are there denominations that might fit, and others that won't? I've been going to an episcopal church and I really dig it. The pastor (is that what they're called in episcopalianism? I'm so confused) agrees with me on many points, and I enjoy the service. The atmosphere is very warm, inclusive, and safe. I feel at home. However, I am hesitant to simply jump in without exploring. I went to another that was like a megachurch. Very moving, but too impersonal due to massive size.

Another I've looked into is United Church of Christ, but the information I've gained in my studies is simply overwhelming. Could anyone give me the gist of that one, and how it compares to episcopal?

WESTOZZIE · Nov 25, 2018

Ever heard about being led by the Holy Spirit? You are unlikely to find a church or denomination that agrees with you on everything...
There is a church in Denver Colorado-pastor Peter Hiett that teaches all shall be saved.

hedrick · Nov 25, 2018

There's a lot of variation within denominations. In general the mainline churches tend to fit the OP's views. Presbyterian (PCUSA), Lutheran (ELCA), Episcopal, United Church of Christ, maybe Methodist (they are currently having an internal war over gays), etc. Episcopal has the most formality and tradition. But specific congregations may vary from the average, so in your community it could be different.

Each denomination has its own history and emphases, but the mainline denominations share a lot more than they differ. The Anglican tradition, which is Episcopal in the US, generally has the most connection with the historic Catholic tradition, and also has worship that's the most formal. Lutheran is second in both areas. But in terms of theology and social witness, the mainline churches are very similar (on average). I wouldn't worry too much about the difference. If you find a congregation that is good for you, you should be OK.

Many Catholic churches also fit your description. The official church policy doesn't, but in the US most Catholics actually agree with you.

I see from other postings by you that you emphasize Jesus' teachings. That's definitely consistent with the mainline tradition.

Sm412 · Nov 25, 2018

Thank you! Yes, I feel at home at this church, and that's what's important, right? I'm 28, and there's lots of older folks, which I LOVE. I won't worry too much about find the *perfect* fit. I'll just let God guide me.

hedrick · Nov 25, 2018

The mainline churches in many ways form a single tradition. They have somewhat different histories, but currently tend to emphasize the commonalities more. They're in the process of negotiating full communion agreements bilaterally between most of them. Those allow exchange of ministers and common service.

hedrick · Nov 25, 2018

Note: read the site rules carefully. Also the Statement of Purpose in each forum.

Full inclusion of gays can only be discussed in a couple of forums. The Liberal forum and Anglican forums are the only ones of them that you're likely to run into.

Universalism can only be discussed in Controversial Christian Theology.

Other aspects of theology that you'd learn in a mainline church may well not be acceptable anywhere in the site.

A_Thinker · Nov 25, 2018

Sm412 said:
So I recently, as in a few weeks ago, accepted Christ into my heart and life. I progressed from atheism to to agnosticism (believing in God but being non-religious) to Christianity over a 10 year period. I am deeply moved and inspired by the truths, sacrifices, and foundations Christ laid for us.

Anyway, exploring the various denominations has been...... mind boggling. There are several things that are very important to me:

1. I need the denomination to resonate with me politically. I am very accepting of LGBT people. Your views on it are your views, but I do not tolerate oppression or even outright condemnation of such people. Love thy neighbor. Let people be who and how they want to be. I also find the reverence for the rich and hatred of the poor to be massively hypocritical and directly against Christ's teachings. I will help the poor regardless of any fault they have in their own poverty by ANY MEANS, be it tax dollars or direct charity. It is important that my denomination share in these values.
2. I am a stickler for formality and tradition. I like structured services. I love me some music too. The rock band thing is cool, so are choirs. Just... music. However, I believe a balance must be struck between tradition and modernism. Too much tradition and we're living in the 11th century. Too much modernism and we aren't even following the teachings of Christ anymore.
3. I believe faith is fully reconcilable with science. I don't want to have to "check my brain at the door" or put my fingers in my ears every time a scientist speaks.
4. I am an unapologetic universalist, that is, I believe in universal salvation. All will eventually be brought into the grace of God. I don't dig the hell heavy stuff.

So given all of this, are there denominations that might fit, and others that won't? I've been going to an episcopal church and I really dig it. The pastor (is that what they're called in episcopalianism? I'm so confused) agrees with me on many points, and I enjoy the service. The atmosphere is very warm, inclusive, and safe. I feel at home. However, I am hesitant to simply jump in without exploring. I went to another that was like a megachurch. Very moving, but too impersonal due to massive size.

Another I've looked into is United Church of Christ, but the information I've gained in my studies is simply overwhelming. Could anyone give me the gist of that one, and how it compares to episcopal?

First of all ... Welcome to the community of believers (i.e. Christianity). I am glad you found your way to us.

You seem to be happy at the church you are currently attending. I would stick with that unless some issue arises.

SkyWriting · Nov 25, 2018

Sm412 said:
So I recently, as in a few weeks ago, accepted Christ into my heart and life. I progressed from atheism to to agnosticism (believing in God but being non-religious) to Christianity over a 10 year period. I am deeply moved and inspired by the truths, sacrifices, and foundations Christ laid for us.

Anyway, exploring the various denominations has been...... mind boggling. There are several things that are very important to me:

1. I need the denomination to resonate with me politically. I am very accepting of LGBT people. Your views on it are your views, but I do not tolerate oppression or even outright condemnation of such people. Love thy neighbor. Let people be who and how they want to be. I also find the reverence for the rich and hatred of the poor to be massively hypocritical and directly against Christ's teachings. I will help the poor regardless of any fault they have in their own poverty by ANY MEANS, be it tax dollars or direct charity. It is important that my denomination share in these values.

Read the Statement of Purpose in each forum!

I get banned regularly for failing the rules of individual forums.
I'm working on that.

When supporting gay people, I say little and promote scripture a lot.
I live in a gay neighborhood and have had a gay neighbor for almost 20 years now, so any of these passages below are helpful every time I'm on that topic:
What Does the Bible Say About How To Think About A Radical Flaming Gay Homosexual Lesbian Or Cross-Dressing Neighbor?

The more you stick to scripture, the less you get banned.

seeking.IAM · Nov 25, 2018

The biggest difference between The Episcopal Church (TEC) and the United Church of Christ (UCC) is polity. TEC is an episcopacy meaning it has a top down hierarchy of being led by Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. The UCC has a bottom up congregational polity. In the UCC the will of the national church doesn't prevail; the will of the congregation does. That said, you will find variances from church to church in both TEC and UCC.

TEC worship follows a more formal prescribed liturgy found in The Book of Common Prayer yet it may be expressed differently in different places. Churches vary in churchmanship from high, broad to low church, from Anglo-Catholic to evangelical, and from liberal to conservative. Best to go to the Scripture, Tradition, and Reason (Anglican) forum to learn more about this.

The best thing to do is to drop into a few churches you are interested in and compare to find the best fit for you as a place to worship and nurture your faith.

Richard T · Nov 25, 2018

Congratulations on your journey and glory to God for your conversion. As to your desire to find a church, you do have quite a few per-conceived notions. I am not judging them, and certainly there are churches available with a smorgasbord of options. Still, I would seek God with an open heart and see where that leads you.

1watchman · Dec 3, 2018

Richard T said:
Congratulations on your journey and glory to God for your conversion. As to your desire to find a church, you do have quite a few per-conceived notions. I am not judging them, and certainly there are churches available with a smorgasbord of options. Still, I would seek God with an open heart and see where that leads you.

Yes, the latter suggestion is important ---"seek God with an open heart...". We much need to take Bible-only and not the religious innovations (and deletions) of men. There are a few such gatherings in the world.

Albion · Dec 5, 2018

Hi, sm412.

It looks to me that you probably are best off staying with The Episcopal Church. The only item in your message that caught my eye and might go in another direction would be the rock band thing, but if that is the only issue, I think you already are where you fit best.

As for the United Church of Christ, yes, that would be another reasonable contender for your allegiance, but I take it that you like the liturgy and the dignified, historic style of worship that Episcopalians are known for. Well, the UCC is not at all like that, so you might find that you like their liberal views, but the service itself leaves you wanting more. Of course, the easiest way to find out is to visit a few times.

By the way, the term for the pastor in an Episcopal Church is Rector unless its a small mission church.

Sm412 · Dec 7, 2018

Richard T said:
Congratulations on your journey and glory to God for your conversion. As to your desire to find a church, you do have quite a few per-conceived notions. I am not judging them, and certainly there are churches available with a smorgasbord of options. Still, I would seek God with an open heart and see where that leads you.

My biggest pre-conceived notions are my full acceptance of science and rejection of hate and oppression. These notions will never be changed.

Sm412 · Dec 7, 2018

Thanks everyone for the replies. Sheesh, I didn't know that universalism was so controversial today. I knew the gay thing was. Figured I'd get flack for that.

hedrick · Dec 7, 2018

Sm412 said:
Thanks everyone for the replies. Sheesh, I didn't know that universalism was so controversial today. I knew the gay thing was. Figured I'd get flack for that.

Let me see if I can explain.

For many traditional Christians, the whole point of the Gospel is to save us from hell. Traditional theology, particularly Protestant, says that we are sinners, and God is committed by considerations of justice to send us to hell. Only by accepting Christ can we avoid this. In such a context, universalism removes the whole point of Christianity. The usual response is, so what did Jesus save us from?

On a practical level, it's not clear that you can sustain churches of the size we're accustomed to without the threat of hell. Liberal denominations are shrinking. There are lots of explanations for this, but my sense is that people who believe what we believe don't see the point to active participation in a church.

Liberal Christians need to articulate a vision of Christianity without the threat of hell that is compelling to people. I'm not going to try that here, because this isn't Controversial Christian Theology.

Sm412 · Dec 9, 2018

hedrick said:
Let me see if I can explain.

For many traditional Christians, the whole point of the Gospel is to save us from hell. Traditional theology, particularly Protestant, says that we are sinners, and God is committed by considerations of justice to send us to hell. Only by accepting Christ can we avoid this. In such a context, universalism removes the whole point of Christianity. The usual response is, so what did Jesus save us from?

On a practical level, it's not clear that you can sustain churches of the size we're accustomed to without the threat of hell. Liberal denominations are shrinking. There are lots of explanations for this, but my sense is that people who believe what we believe don't see the point to active participation in a church.

Liberal Christians need to articulate a vision of Christianity without the threat of hell that is compelling to people. I'm not going to try that here, because this isn't Controversial Christian Theology.

So wait, we were created as sinful beings, then punished for being sinful beings?

That's pretty easy to answer: I'd argue that Christ saves us from ourselves, and not necessarily from hell. That's what the gospels spoke to me. Christ saves us from the manifestations of our sinful nature, both worldly and unworldly. And even then, our own traditions centered around our faith cause us to sin. Salem witch trials, for instance.

The idea that Christ saves us from hell centers around the idea that all humans are destined for hell simply by being the way God created them to be. You could argue that we were simply made with free will, and we *choose* sin. All of us, collectively, without Christ are ALL sinful with no hope of salvation. But would God not have foreseen that? Are you implying that God made a mistake? Like whoops, made sinful beings, must punish them all.

Eternal hell simply defies logic, and contradicts a loving God.

"Good news! If you don't believe what I believe you will be tortured for hundreds of trillions of years brutally with no end! God loves you!"

Nice message, brah. Very moving.

hedrick · Dec 9, 2018

Sm412 said:
So wait, we were created as sinful beings, then punished for being sinful beings?

I was trying to give a summary of traditional theology, so I didn't get quite this specific. There are differences among Christian groups about the specifics of how sin works, whether we are responsible for Adam's sin, etc. Theology has generally tried to avoid saying that we were created as sinful beings. But I think it's fair to say that for traditional Christianity, because of our sin we all need to be saved or else, and that's the point of Christ's death. In that context, universalism seems to remove the whole point of Christ coming, since there's nothing to save us from.

Mainline Christianity -- to which we both belong -- follows modern NT study in saying that Jesus' main purpose was to begin the establishment of the Kingdom of God. God is committed to restoring the earth and human life. As such following Jesus isn't so much a way to avoid hell as a job -- the job of being Jesus' agents. Not all mainline Christians are universalists. Indeed I think it's a minority, in part because Jesus spoke not just of giving us a job but holding us accountable for whether we did it. But still, the basic vision of Jesus' mission and ours is at least compatible with universalism in a way that traditional Christianity is not.

(I note that it's possible to hold us accountable other than by eternal torture for those who blow it. Personally I find the usual concept of hell implausible. However in the most recent survey I could find 78% of PCUSA elders believed in hell. I think we're typical of mainline denominations. For some reason they didn't ask pastors. I think universalism would be a bit more common for them than for elders, but it would still be a minority.)

Sm412 · Dec 9, 2018

hedrick said:
I was trying to give a summary of traditional theology, so I didn't get quite this specific. There are differences among Christian groups about the specifics of how sin works, whether we are responsible for Adam's sin, etc. Theology has generally tried to avoid saying that we were created as sinful beings. But I think it's fair to say that for traditional Christianity, because of our sin we all need to be saved or else, and that's the point of Christ's death. In that context, universalism seems to remove the whole point of Christ coming, since there's nothing to save us from.

Mainline Christianity -- to which we both belong -- follows modern NT study in saying that Jesus' main purpose was to begin the establishment of the Kingdom of God. God is committed to restoring the earth and human life. As such following Jesus isn't so much a way to avoid hell as a job -- the job of being Jesus' agents. Not all mainline Christians are universalists. Indeed I think it's a minority, in part because Jesus spoke not just of giving us a job but holding us accountable for whether we did it. But still, the basic vision of Jesus' mission and ours is at least compatible with universalism in a way that traditional Christianity is not.

(I note that it's possible to hold us accountable other than by eternal torture for those who blow it. Personally I find the usual concept of hell implausible. However in the most recent survey I could find 78% of PCUSA elders believed in hell. I think we're typical of mainline denominations. For some reason they didn't ask pastors. I think universalism would be a bit more common for them than for elders, but it would still be a minority.)

I understand, brother. Thank you. My sincere apologies for my sarcasm.

JamieRedheadUK · Dec 29, 2018

Okay in my opinion I think the majority of Christian denominations would have severe problems with number 4.

Most Christians believe that we are, as a people, are damned by God’s justice due to our inherently sinful nature since the fall. But that it is through His love for us that He provided a route for our salvation through Jesus Christ. Without that we would be damned to hell (whatever someone’s personal perceptions of hell may be).

The rest of your points are debatable and in most denominations there would be quite a broad point of view on them. Your universalism I do think though would be a ‘deal-breaker’ for most.

1watchman · Jan 25, 2019

JamieRedheadUK said:
Okay in my opinion I think the majority of Christian denominations would have severe problems with number 4.

Most Christians believe that we are, as a people, are damned by God’s justice due to our inherently sinful nature since the fall. But that it is through His love for us that He provided a route for our salvation through Jesus Christ. Without that we would be damned to hell (whatever someone’s personal perceptions of hell may be).

The rest of your points are debatable and in most denominations there would be quite a broad point of view on them. Your universalism I do think though would be a ‘deal-breaker’ for most.

You are very right about that. If one does not see we are born in sin (Genesis 2 & 3) and have inherited the malady, there would be no need of salvation. If one does not see they need to be "born again" (John 3), perhaps they are not reading the New Testament.

New to Christianity entirely. Need advice.

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