Jews will have a chance to be saved during end times?

Biblewriter said:

It is simply, absolutely, and positively untrue that Dispensationalists believe that every Jew that ever lived will be saved. Dispensationalists teach no such thing, and have never taught anything even resembling this false notion. And this poster has been repeatedly informed that we neither teach nor believe this.

What Dispensationalists do believe, because the Bible explicitly states it, is that in a coming day absolutely all of Israel will be brought back to their land. (Ezekiel 20:40, 36:10) But as they return, the rebels will be purged from their midst. (Ezekiel 20:33-38) And all those still living after this purge is completed will believe and be saved. (Ezekiel 20:40, Isaiah 4:3, et al.)

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You haven't addressed the issue.

To reiterate; Judas, Caiaphas, et al were those of whom Zechariah 12:10 declares "...shall look upon Me whom they have pierced...". Dispensationally, they will be among the saved of national Israel.

Judas, Caiaphas, et al are those who specifically fulfill Zechariah 12:10. Any purge of rebels cannot include them without contradicting this Scripture.

Of course, they might rebel after being saved (Zechariah 13:8-9, which chronologically follows Zechariah 12:10). But they wouldn't lose their salvation. In either scenario, we'll still meet and greet them in heaven.

Dispensationally, that is.

John 17:12 notwithstanding.

Biblewriter said:

It is simply, absolutely, and positively untrue that Dispensationalists believe that every Jew that ever lived will be saved. Dispensationalists teach no such thing, and have never taught anything even resembling this false notion. And this poster has been repeatedly informed that we neither teach nor believe this.

What Dispensationalists do believe, because the Bible explicitly states it, is that in a coming day absolutely all of Israel will be brought back to their land. (Ezekiel 20:40, 36:10) But as they return, the rebels will be purged from their midst. (Ezekiel 20:33-38) And all those still living after this purge is completed will believe and be saved. (Ezekiel 20:40, Isaiah 4:3, et al.)

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Right; not many, if anyone thinks that 'all Israel' means every Israelite who has ever lived.
But where the Dispensationalists go wrong, is their belief of Jewish Israelis being the only Israelites. Ezekiel 20:34-38 says the Lord will take the Israelites, that is people from all of the 12 tribes, INCLUDING those grafted in by faith, out of the nations, Judge them and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the holy Land.

This great migration is prophesied many times as the Second Exodus and the result of it will be a new nation in all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Ezekiel 20:42, Isaiah 62:1-5, Zechariah 8:1-23
Ezekiel 20:45-48 & 21:1-7 tells us how the Lord will clear the holy Land to enable this.

jgr said:

You haven't addressed the issue.

To reiterate; Judas, Caiaphas, et al were those of whom Zechariah 12:10 declares "...shall look upon Me whom they have pierced...". Dispensationally, they will be among the saved of national Israel.

Judas, Caiaphas, et al are those who specifically fulfill Zechariah 12:10. Any purge of rebels cannot include them without contradicting this Scripture.

Of course, they might rebel after being saved (Zechariah 13:8-9, which chronologically follows Zechariah 12:10). But they wouldn't lose their salvation. In either scenario, we'll still meet and greet them in heaven.

Dispensationally, that is.

John 17:12 notwithstanding.

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This is nothing short of total nonsense. An obvious attempt to totally distort what Dispensationalists believe and teach.

Biblewriter said:

This is nothing short of total nonsense. An obvious attempt to totally distort what Dispensationalists believe and teach.

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Which Dispensationalists?

You claim that Dr. Dwight Pentecost got it wrong in his book "Things to Come".

You claim Dr. Charles Ryrie got it wrong when he connected John Darby to the Irvingite movement, in his book "Dispensationalism".

You claim John Hagee got it wrong when he said modern Jews are saved under the Old Covenant.

Are the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible a source of truth for your doctrine?

Are you now the spokesman for the doctrine?


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BABerean2 said:

Are you now the spokesman for the doctrine?

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Yes

Biblewriter said:

This is nothing short of total nonsense. An obvious attempt to totally distort what Dispensationalists believe and teach.

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Feel free to disprove it.

jgr said:

Feel free to disprove it.

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There is nothing to disprove. This is an allegation so entirely baseless that it disproves itself.

But if you need scriptures, there are plenty.


The LORD is known by the judgment He executes; The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Meditation. Selah The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:16-17

12 For it is not an enemy who reproaches me; Then I could bear it. Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me; Then I could hide from him. 13 But it was you, a man my equal, My companion and my acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, And walked to the house of God in the throng. 15 Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them. Psalm 55:12-15

31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Matthew 23:31-33

Biblewriter said:

31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Matthew 23:31-33

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These were pedigreed Jews. They were contemporaries of Judas. They were among those to whom Zechariah 12:10 refers precisely and specifically.

Will God make an arbitrary exception to Zechariah 12:10 and condemn these to hell?

Biblewriter said:

Yes

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Was there a meeting of well known Dispensationalists who nominated you to be their spokesman, and then you won the majority of the vote?

Or did you get it in the same way that C.I. Scofield obtained his Doctorate of Divinity?
It was self appointed...

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jgr said:

These were pedigreed Jews. They were contemporaries of Judas. They were among those to whom Zechariah 12:10 refers precisely and specifically.

Will God make an arbitrary exception to Zechariah 12:10 and condemn these to hell?

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No God will explicitly fulfill Zechariah 12:10 But it was not about those individuals, but about individuals who will be living on the earth at the time He returns.

You are simply wresting the scriptures to mean something entirely different from even what they are talking about, much less what they say.

BABerean2 said:

Was there a meeting of well known Dispensationalists who nominated you to be their spokesman, and then you won the majority of the vote?

Or did you get it in the same way that C.I. Scofield obtained his Doctorate of Divinity?
It was self appointed...

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Actually, I am a recognized leader in certain dispensational circles. But I am not going to go into that here.

Biblewriter said:

No God will explicitly fulfill Zechariah 12:10 But it was not about those individuals, but about individuals who will be living on the earth at the time He returns.

You are simply wresting the scriptures to mean something entirely different from even what they are talking about, much less what they say.

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The individuals who will be living on the earth at the time He returns are not the individuals who pierced Him.

Judas, Caiaphas, the Pharisees, et al are they who "shall look upon Me whom they have pierced."

According to dispensationalism's Zechariah 12:10, they will be saved.

Biblewriter said:

Actually, I am a recognized leader in certain dispensational circles. But I am not going to go into that here.

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It must be a very small circle, since I never heard your name in my research on Dispensational Theology, until I came to this forum.

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Biblewriter said:

No God will explicitly fulfill Zechariah 12:10 But it was not about those individuals, but about individuals who will be living on the earth at the time He returns.

You are simply wresting the scriptures to mean something entirely different from even what they are talking about, much less what they say.

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You must have missed what the Apostle John said in the scripture found below about Zechariah 12:10.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

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jgr said:

The individuals who will be living on the earth at the time He returns are not the individuals who pierced Him.

Judas, Caiaphas, the Pharisees, et al are they who "shall look upon Me whom they have pierced."

According to dispensationalism's Zechariah 12:10, they will be saved.

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You are using one possible meaning of the word "they," and insisting that it means that. But it is a well known fact that this word "they" has various meanings, one of which is simply a reference to a group, regardless of the individuals that currently compost that group.

Dispensationalism most certainly does not teach what you are claiming. And you know this quite well. You are simply attempting to falsely disparage Dispensationalism, but what you are really disparaging is the word of the Holy Spirit of God.

BABerean2 said:

It must be a very small circle, since I never heard your name in my research on Dispensational Theology, until I came to this forum.

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It includes places like Russia, where my teachings were first circulated, Indonesia, where my works have been translated into the local tongue, Argentinia, where they have also been translated, Spain, where they have been published, and bible schools in Africa, England, and India.

BABerean2 said:

You must have missed what the Apostle John said in the scripture found below about Zechariah 12:10.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

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Yes, the Holy Spirit, in speaking through John, applied part of Zechariah 12:10 to that time. But the rest of that scripture remains unfulfilled. In Bible prophecy it is very common for a single statement to include references to different times.

We were discussing the other part of this prophecy.

BABerean2 said:

It must be a very small circle, since I never heard your name in my research on Dispensational Theology, until I came to this forum.

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I am better known in places like India Indonesia, Africa, and South America, than in the United States

Jews will have a chance to be saved during end times?

As much as a chance as the tax collectors and harlots........

Mat 21:31
31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” Jesus said to them,
“Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him;
and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

Mat 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 “See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Revelation 17:4
And the Woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated<2049>



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Biblewriter said:

Yes, the Holy Spirit, in speaking through John, applied part of Zechariah 12:10 to that time. But the rest of that scripture remains unfulfilled.

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You must have also missed the Spirit being poured out on the Day of Pentecost, and those from "all the house of Israel" being "cut to the heart" and repenting for crucifying their Messiah in the passage below.

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Once again we see the claims of Dispensational Theology not matching the text of scripture.
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Biblewriter said:

You are using one possible meaning of the word "they," and insisting that it means that. But it is a well known fact that this word "they" has various meanings, one of which is simply a reference to a group, regardless of the individuals that currently compost that group.

Dispensationalism most certainly does not teach what you are claiming. And you know this quite well. You are simply attempting to falsely disparage Dispensationalism, but what you are really disparaging is the word of the Holy Spirit of God.

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Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The grammatical antecedent of the first "they" is the house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

The grammatical antecedent of the second "they" is the house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

The second "they" group is the same as the first. Confirm with anyone competent in English.

And Judas et al are found in "they".

Only dispensational distortionism would claim differently.