Is the baptism vs not required, a silly debate?
- Thread starter JohnB445
- Start date
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Peter had a lot to learn in the beginning.
This is the same Peter who ordered the Lord to wash him all over after Jesus explained why he needed to wash Peter's feet. It was Peter who cut off the guard's ear at the arrest of Jesus. Peter was impulsive and presumptuous by nature.
One example of Peter assuming to know God's will and was wrong, was when he organized a drawing of lots to see who will be the replacement of Judas. He thought to do that was God's will, too. Turns out that God's will was Paul.
We do not draw lots to to determine for whom God bestows a spiritual gift. The gifts, depending upon their nature, are given by the Lord and the Spirit as they choose.
In the beginning Peter was sometimes (out of ignorance) being stupid. Just like many baby Christians can be. If we are honest? We can recall stupid things baby Christians have done. After they matured they might laugh at how stupid they were at first. Sincerity is not spirituality. Spirituality requires knowledge and maturity.
For example of myself? After I was first aware of my salvation and getting into the Word I could not wait to be water baptized. I had one pastor whom I respected even tell me its not required. Another told me pretty much the same. But, as far as I was concerned? I wanted to be water baptized yesterday!
I finally was water baptized. I was disappointed a bit because I thought it was suppose to enter me into a new realm of spiritual advancement. But, I had gotten it out of my system, then moved on to gain in better understanding eventually.
Upvote
0
- Feb 5, 2012
- 1,883
- 1,045
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
How did all this end up a discussion about infant Baptism?
And exactly what is your agenda, are you denying the Sacrament of Baptism as is traditionally practiced by the Church.
Upvote
0
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Denying what? By what church? "The" Church? Which 'the' Church?
Last time I checked there are over 1000 denominations. That is why each one of us must stand before the Lord alone and be shown to be accountable for what we chose to believe. Many are going to be in for a shock. Both in good and bad ways.
I have no 'agenda' other than to not swerve off of where I believe the Word of God leads to.
Its not the Word of God I am denying as I detect when some traditions do not agree with what is contained in the Scriptures. Many times errors occur because men grabbed things out of context presumptuously and need to be shown the greater context they are missing. Otherwise we have results like to story of the four blind man and the elephant.
The traditions of men were a serious problem for Jesus to deal with. He always got his hearers back on track by declaring what is written. That kind of conflict is recorded in the Bible so we can recognize it when men today decide to take the same swerve.
Are you saying that denominational traditions? Ones that can be shown to be not in agreement with Scripture? Should remain placed in a position of being sacred? I know Hindus that have sacred traditions, and they are not heading to Heaven. Muslims are willing to die for their 'sacred traditions' and they are heading for hell. We need to recognize that what appeals to our emotions deeply must agree with the Word of God to be virtuous. Otherwise we end up being religious only.
We need to recognize that problem of when truth and human sentiment find themselves in conflict.
This thread has been about if water baptism is required. And, as it normally occurs in many threads, the topic will evolve at times.
Upvote
0
- Feb 5, 2012
- 1,883
- 1,045
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
I asked you a simple question but rather than answer me you seem to have gone off in another direction.
Are you arguing that the sacrament of Baptism is not Biblical and are you arguing that Jesus did not command us to Baptize?
The church I speak of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as mentioned in Nicene Creed.
Basically it is ALL Christians who share the common tenets of the Christian Religion.
The Roman Catholic, the Orthodox (plural), the Anglicans, Lutherans and the major Protestant communities believe that the sacrament of Baptism is an outward sign using water and includes an inward Grace the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You seem to keep honing in on water through birth which is not what Baptism is about. A scriptural reference for the sacrament of Baptism as directed by Jesus can be found in Matthew 24:16-20
Matt. 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Upvote
0
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Not with water. That is the presumption and error of many. To baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The word "name" as used by those at the time of writing of the Bible was also understood to mean "person." Keep in mind. These Jewish disciples were going out into a Gentile world that worshiped many pagan gods. The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was foreign to them. To baptize also meant at that time to put something into identification with something else.
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them
this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift
my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:4-5
this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift
my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:4-5
So we have a problem. How could Jesus have meant to go out and baptize with water? After Jesus made it clear and commanded his disciples that water baptism had become something of the past dispensation. And, that its to be Spirit baptism that is to be the new baptism?
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:5
That could be like someone telling an automobile owner back in the 30's...
For Henry Ford had you hand crank your engine to start,
but in a few months you will starting your engine with a key.
Does that mean you were still to use both? No.
Possibly in the beginning of that major change some walked to the front of their car to start it before they remembered everything had changed.
Of course an automobile is tangible and physical. And, the Spirit can go undetected by our natural senses. But just the same. The "but" in the verse reveals a contrast between two different realities in regards to Jesus saying what he did.
Problem is? Its embarrassing. Many in Christianity presumed when they see the word "baptize" that it must refer to water. They failed to gain enough doctrinal understanding to see how the word 'baptized' correlates to its context and how the word was used, failing to know the various meanings understood by those living at the time the Bible was written.
It did not have to mean water. Not at all.
“What do you want me to do for you?” he asked.
They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and
the other at your left in your glory.”
“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said.
“Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized
with the baptism I am baptized with?”
“We can,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink
and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized
with." Jn 10:36-39
They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and
the other at your left in your glory.”
“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said.
“Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized
with the baptism I am baptized with?”
“We can,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink
and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized
with." Jn 10:36-39
Jesus was the author and pioneer of our faith. He was (in his humanity) the very first man to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. He is now to be our role model and spiritual prototype.
Its the Holy Spirit baptism of Jesus that is hardly understood today by too many churches. They who fail to understand this essential spiritual means find themselves without power (grace) to grasp sound doctrine on a daily basis as to grow into full maturity in Christ.
Instead. Too many are religious and get caught up in rituals of men having turned Christians into merit badge seeking Boy Scouts. Being not grace oriented souls who are continuously being transformed more and more into the image of Christ by the power of the Spirit for those who hunger for more and more sound doctrine.
Ritual is for the religious. Those who seek what is tangible to the natural eye as to be able to "keep score" with how they are doing. In contrast..Christ wants us becoming transformed mentally by the power of the Spirit through the means of deep comprehension of sound doctrine.
Upvote
0
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
No I am not. I am saying that baptism is essential in salvation. Its just that a good number of mainstream denominations have not done anything other than to perpetuate past error in what that baptism is.
I was brought up a Jew. I had no church doctrines imposed upon me as a child as to make me not able to think with what the Scriptures teach. You keep wanting to keep on saying Jesus spoke of water because He used the word 'baptism.' That is a major error. Its become an erroneous tradition that is defended vehemently by certain denominations, while its an error that makes Christians no better than Muslims who are vehement in their dogmas as well. Time for correction, please. For those who want it.
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:5
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:5
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Ac 1:5
Peter forgot those words after he heard them. It took some time before he would recall them and put them into practice.
What many sincere Bible readers have done is to assume that Peter was always infallible. That if he water baptized, that it must be God's will. Yet, Jesus had told him that water baptism was to be replaced with Spirit baptism.
Its was not until later on, after having ordered (wrongly) many water baptism for gentiles (gentiles, who were being Spirit baptized after becoming saved)... that the words finally sunk in for Peter. Peter then realized that something entirely new had arrived to replace the old way. The old way that Peter had been still walking in.
Peter for a time was without recall concerning what Jesus had told him in Acts 1:5. It had slipped his mind that the baptism of John (water) was to be replaced with the Holy Spirit baptism.
In the mean time.. How did we get where many are today? While reading their Bibles enthusiastic believers saw the apostles were using water baptism, and assumed that it must be the way for the church age. Yet, Peter needed to reach a point where he finally did recall the words of the Lord. Peter before he remembered the Lord's words had been ordering many water baptisms as Jesus disciples always had done when walking with Jesus before the church age began..
But, finally, there came a point when Peter had the realization, that for the Church age we are now in the age of Spirit Baptism, not water.
Here is proof that Peter had forgotten the words spoken to him in Acts 1:5 about water being replaced by Spirit.
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
That passage lets us know that prior to that moment when Peter remembered, the he had been ordering water baptism for Gentiles who just got saved. Before he remembered Peter had not yet recalled the words of the Lord. Finally, Peter recalled the words of Jesus while witnessing to the salvation of Gentiles who believed his message.
We see no more water baptisms ordered by Peter from that point on after he recalled.
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Agreed! Noah never got wet. Remember? What saved Noah was that he was raised above the destruction below him. And, now by means of the Spirit we too have been raised UP above what is to be destroyed and seated with Christ in Heaven.
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him
in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:6
in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:6
Do you realize that is true? Of course you do!
We no longer live. We have been crucified with Christ, and now have been seated with Him in Heaven.
Read the following carefully. Its been used many times to try to justify water baptism.
" After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to
the imprisoned spirits — to those who were disobedient
long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while
the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in
all, were saved through water." 1 Pet 3:19-20
the imprisoned spirits — to those who were disobedient
long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while
the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in
all, were saved through water." 1 Pet 3:19-20
But? Noah was not baptized! He remained dry! Its not about water baptism of being immersed. It was those who perished for evil who were immersed. Its just the opposite.
Noah was raised up in the ark and the water that did not touch him while it destroyed all life below him that would have harmed him. He was saved by water. By staying out of the water! It was not a baptism at all.
Noah's ark does not speak of water baptism, but about how we, like Noah, have been raised above the destruction. Having been raised up by the Spirit and are now seated in Heaven above what is to be destroyed!
For we have been lifted/raised up and seated with Christ in Heaven!
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him
in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:6
in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Eph 2:6
Lifted up and above the destruction to come. Like the flood lifted up the ark of Noah to save him from the destruction below him. And, now we are seated in CHRIST! Seated in Heaven. He is our Ark! We have been saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit who lifted us up.
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
Thess
Well-Known Member
- Oct 31, 2018
- 756
- 319
- 56
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Divorced
I would reject any baptism that is other than the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God is Almighty Powerful, and His Son Jesus created a way for ANYONE, ANYWHERE to be saved through Jesus. We could be on the side of a frozen glacier and come to KNOW God fully without H2O. We can be in the dry desert and come to KNOW god without H2O. We can be in a German Holocaust camp where there is no dunk tank, and KNOW God. Anywhere, anytime. God doesn't play games with rituals or objects....He wants our effectual hearts.
Upvote
0
- Feb 5, 2012
- 1,883
- 1,045
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- Married
Thanks for sharing your thoughts they sound reasonable to me, but what has that got to do with me asking someone else an unrelated question?
Upvote
0
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of
God and the powers of the coming age and who have
fallen away (from sound doctrine), to be brought back to
repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of
God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 6:4-6 was about Jewish believers who were going back to the old ways of the Temple to offer animal sacrifices for sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice to replace the animal sacrifices that could never truly propitiate the Father's justice. Yet? They kept doing it to no avail. Water baptism is like going back to the Temple.who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of
God and the powers of the coming age and who have
fallen away (from sound doctrine), to be brought back to
repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of
God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
That warns us that its impossible to bring certain believers back to repentance even if shown the truth. Religious sentimentality rules over them in that case. Its like trying to reason a devout Mary worshiper out of his sentimental religionism. Its impossible after being shown the Word enough times. They just will not listen. They are caught up in their own little world of religious feelings.
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
GenemZ
Well-Known Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 22,141
- 1,372
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
It was not unrelated. Seems you are not seeing what others are really saying here. It all relates to your claim about the "sacrament" of baptism. He was showing you how the concept that you seem to be holding to has many ways to show its not valid.
Trouble might be that too many denominations used the RCC as their role model and began their own inflexible system of devising dogmas to control their flocks. Its why many say they do not follow a religion but believe in God.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
