Once saved always saved

eleos1954 said:

When you have an abiding trust in Jesus, you can know that you are a child of God and that He will finish what He began in your life. “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6). How do we complete the race that we began when we first accepted the Savior? “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2).

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This right here is the key to assurance.

mark kennedy said:

That turning away, which is actually falling away, is falling away from the faith. Committing a sin is not apostasy, you don't lose salvation because you sin, willingly or otherwise. When you sin, and I don't mean if, you are disciplined because God disciplines every child that comes to him.

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As Romans 1 clearly shows the "endemic" sins noted in the chapter are the symptom of unbelief. You are right.

mark kennedy said:

From the Council of Orange, Canon 6:

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).​

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And that quote from Orange is frankly a direct lift from
On the Predestination of the Saints (Book I)
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)

mark kennedy said:

You had me till here


That turning away, which is actually falling away, is falling away from the faith. Committing a sin is not apostasy, you don't lose salvation because you sin, willingly or otherwise. When you sin, and I don't mean if, you are disciplined because God disciplines every child that comes to him.



Grace and peace,
Mark

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Ezekiel 18

24 But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

Ezekiel 18

26 When a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

Ezekiel 33

13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

John 15:5

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 9

27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Lucifer (anointed cherub who covers no less) & the 1/3 of the angels were in heaven with God himself and they are condemned because they sinned. So they lost eternal life with Him.

God Bless.

redleghunter said:

As Romans 1 clearly shows the "endemic" sins noted in the chapter are the symptom of unbelief. You are right.

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Yea, that whole thing of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, we still have that tendency post conversion. Yet what comes to the light becomes light and by all accounts in the New Testament witness the new nature is perfect. We still struggle with the old nature, we win some we lose some. But it's three steps forward and two steps back, every step we take along the narrow path is by grace.

eleos1954 said:

Ezekiel 18

24 But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

Ezekiel 18

26 When a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

Ezekiel 33

13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

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Sure, but this is physical death, something a believer can face.

Believers can die for sin, without being lost forever.

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

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Departing from Christ is apostasy, it has little to do with losing salvation, it's actually what happens if you reject faith.

1 Corinthians 9

27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

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The context here is important, Paul is talking about the bema judgment, it was a sporting event trophy.

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

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Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

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The sacrifices he is warning them are the Levitical ones, the sacrifice of Christ was once and for all. He makes this point earlier in Hebrews 6:4-6. He is talking about falling away from the faith which is apostasy, not carnality.

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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What your holding fast to is faith in the risen Savior, and the dog and the pig never became a lamb, that's why they returned to the muck and mire.

Lucifer (anointed cherub who covers no less) & the 1/3 of the angels were in heaven with God himself and they are condemned because they sinned. So they lost eternal life with Him.

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Different circumstances, there was no original sin, they chose to rebel and while God gave them time to, never repented of anything.

God Bless.

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Grace and peace,
Mark

redleghunter said:

You do realize there is no such doctrine as OSAS. That term is used by internet theologians who attribute eternal security with antinomianism. It’s a made up straw man theological term which is easily knocked down.

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I heard the term used as doctrine before there was an internet in Baptist circles.
Please knock it down in a new thread. (Feel free to keep posting here also)

redleghunter said:

Augustine shows the two historic views one Pelagian and the other unmerited Grace. That one either believes there is some inherent human goodness or worth which leads one to believe God, or that God by His Grace provides the heart to believe (Ezekiel 36:26 and following).

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It's a false dichotomy. There are not two views. There are at least 3 views. Neither of those views include synergism. It's a typical logical fallacy to argue the only possibilities are A or B, and since A cannot be true therefore we're left with B. But they overlook, or simply ignore C.

EJ M said:

I heard the term used as doctrine before there was an internet in Baptist circles.
Please knock it down in a new thread.

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Already doing a good job here as others are.

The OSAS-antinomian construct is potentially an observation but not found in Calvinism , Reformed or any Protestant theologies.

In fact Luther addresses and refuted the antinomians in his work Against Antinomianism:

Against the Antinomians (Martin Luther) | Natural Law, Natural Rights, and American Constitutionalism

On most of these threads which prop a title addressing OSAS most think they are addressing Calvinism. But they are a far cry away. Calvinism as with extension to Reformed theology teaches not only is Christ our Savior but Lord. Whereas the OP constructs we have here have a OSAS title but also a sunk assertion of being able to sin with impunity. The Reformers and every other Christian historic doctrines have refuted this and do not promote an eternal security with the assumption of sinning with impunity. The Reformers would define such as unbelief.

As we see in Romans 1, the endemic sins mentioned are a symptom of unbelief.

So are there ministries or independent churches out there which teach eternal security and hey don't worry about your sin? Yes there are such. But they usually don't say hey go and sin. They basically preach half the Truth which is not the Truth. They preach Jesus as Savior but omit the part that He is Lord. Some have coined this "Easy Believeism."

John MacArthur, a Calvinist no less, has a great exposition where he takes on this doctrine of easy believism.

Thanks for @mark kennedy for posting this elsewhere:


An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

redleghunter said:

He was a believer before he left?

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Do you not read? Inspect vs. 24 & 32. I'll let you explain how the prodigal was made alive AGAIN. Shall I await your response?

mark kennedy said:

Sure, but this is physical death, something a believer can face.

For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. (1 Corinthians 11:29-31)

So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)
​

Believers can die for sin, without being lost forever.



Departing from Christ is apostasy, it has little to do with losing salvation, it's actually what happens if you reject faith.



The context here is important, Paul is talking about the bema judgment, it was a sporting event trophy.

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27)​

The sacrifices he is warning them are the Levitical ones, the sacrifice of Christ was once and for all. He makes this point earlier in Hebrews 6:4-6. He is talking about falling away from the faith which is apostasy, not carnality.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29)​

What your holding fast to is faith in the risen Savior, and the dog and the pig never became a lamb, that's why they returned to the muck and mire.



Different circumstances, there was no original sin, they chose to rebel and while God gave them time to, never repented of anything.


Grace and peace,
Mark

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Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

redleghunter said:

I didn’t. I put it in context. Now address the full context.

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Since you refused address v.13 itself, be my guest and explain to all - how can an unbeliever not live according to the flesh? Shall I wait for your answer or will you continue to evade?

bcbsr said:

It's a false dichotomy. There are not two views. There are at least 3 views. Neither of those views include synergism. It's a typical logical fallacy to argue the only possibilities are A or B, and since A cannot be true therefore we're left with B. But they overlook, or simply ignore C.

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There are no false dichotomies with God. There is righteousness and unrighteousness there is good and evil. There is the material and immaterial.

Synergism is Pelagian. Whether one believes a small fraction of his salvation comes from some internal goodness outside of God's Grace or half, or a third, it's Pelagian and as such no longer Grace but debt (Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:6)

However, please show the third option of how one comes to saving faith.

I presented two:

1. God replaces the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. By Grace we come to faith.

2. We have some inner goodness or merit or some quality which God adds to to help us come to faith. This is the infusion model of Pelagians and semi Pelagians.

I'll entertain a third version but it will be included in number two.

redleghunter said:

No explanation necessary as you completely ignored Paul’s exhibition to the Romans on the distinction between those who are in Christ and those who are not. He is teaching them not warning them their new found faith was in jeopardy.

He is employing a teaching method.

If one has the Spirit then this

If one does not have the Spirit then this

Then reassuring them that the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit we are children of God.

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Those who are in Christ do not CHOOSE to live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Again, explain why Paul used IF in vs. 13. Unbelievers can only live according to the flesh - it's not a matter of IF. Shall I await your explanation of IF in v.13?

Mark Quayle said:

We've got a misunderstanding going on here. How does anything I said directly contradict Rom 8:13?

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If I understand your view correctly, you believe a genuinely saved person cannot fall away/lose salvation. That is why I countered with Rom 8:13. If I misunderstood your view or if you think Rom 8:13 does not contradict your view, then please explain

redleghunter said:

That’s completely a self contradiction.

You tell someone who actually provided context to your inquiry they have to reconcile their point with the rest of Scriptures yet make an entire theology out of one verse.

You are telling him he has to use the remainder of the Bible to refute your one verse eisegesis in Romans 8:13.

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Still awaiting to hear of your interpretation of v.13 itself. All Scripture must be reconciled with your doctrine. Don't evade the ones that don't.

Oldmantook said:

Do you not read? Inspect vs. 24 & 32. I'll let you explain how the prodigal was made alive AGAIN. Shall I await your response?

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Who did Jesus come for? Have you considered that?

Oldmantook said:

Still awaiting to hear of your interpretation of v.13 itself. All Scripture must be reconciled with your doctrine. Don't evade the ones that don't.

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You can keep asking but you were already refuted by the apostle Paul provided in context.

If you want to refuse to read the text in the proper context and insist one verse rules them all have at it. But complete error as that is not how you interpret Scriptures unless you work for Catholic Answers.

redleghunter said:

You can keep asking but you were already refuted by the apostle Paul provided in context.

If you want to refuse to read the text in the proper context and insist one verse rules them all have at it. But complete error as that is not how you interpret Scriptures unless you work for Catholic Answers.

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You steadfastly refuse to explain how IF in v.13 applies to the unbeliever which totally undermines your belief. Shall I keep waiting...zzzzz.

redleghunter said:

There are no false dichotomies with God. There is righteousness and unrighteousness there is good and evil. There is the material and immaterial.

Synergism is Pelagian. Whether one believes a small fraction of his salvation comes from some internal goodness outside of God's Grace or half, or a third, it's Pelagian and as such no longer Grace but debt (Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:6)

However, please show the third option of how one comes to saving faith.

I presented two:

1. God replaces the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. By Grace we come to faith.

2. We have some inner goodness or merit or some quality which God adds to to help us come to faith. This is the infusion model of Pelagians and semi Pelagians.

I'll entertain a third version but it will be included in number two.

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I like Luther's take on this, you can mix ice creme and dung which won't hurt the dung, but it will ruin the ice cream. Our good works amount to nothing, although Paul does make mention of the Gentiles sometimes did things that were in the law, some call that the witness of conscience (Romans 2:14). Salvation it self requires a perfect righteousness, the communicable attributes of God. I think there is a reason some of the worst sinners can become the most fruitful ministers, Paul is a prime example. He said he worked harder then the other Apostles, not because of any special merit on his part, but he confessed it was by the grace that was in him. I wouldn't mind these heated discussions so much if I didn't feel grace was getting a raw deal, of course works should follow, but they don't come from you. Jesus dies for your sins and you can't give credit to him for what meager good works you can manage. May our prayer always be God have mercy on me a sinner, there's grace in that, and it's grace that empowers us for service.

Grace and peace,
Mark