Miracles, healings of God, or of Satan

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2018

This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." Our Guest Katherine Ruonala | Sid Roth "It's Supernatural"

"Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine." God Works Through Miracles

Some consider her church "cultic":

Glory City Church – false prophets ?

Australia’s Glory Clown: Katherine Ruonala

"This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another "spirit" is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement."

Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light ([2 Corinthians 11:14](2 Corinthians 11:14)). He does this to draw people away from God... When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God ([Exodus 7:8–10](Exodus 7:8–10)). The [magi of Egypt](How were Pharaoh’s magicians able to perform miracles?) were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11).

...the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” ([2 Thessalonians 2:9](2 Thessalonians 2:9)). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” ([Matthew 24:24](Matthew 24:24)).

The existence of [demonic miracles](How can we discern counterfeit miracles?) is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” ([1 John 4:1](1 John 4:1)). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says. If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

Examples of convincing demonic miracles today are the [apparitions of the Virgin Mary](Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God?) in different countries. These appearances of Mary seem legitimate; indeed, they are believed by millions of people. But when we compare what the apparitions say to what Scripture teaches, it is not even close.

What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?

https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

Can Satan Heal? | Women of Grace

Can Satan heal people?

If Satan cannot heal, how do you explain "miraculous healings," which apparently do not originate with God? | Church of the Eternal God

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." Our Guest Katherine Ruonala | Sid Roth "It's Supernatural"

"Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine." God Works Through Miracles

Some consider her church "cultic":

.Glory City Church – false prophets ?

.Australia’s Glory Clown: Katherine Ruonala

"This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another "spirit" is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement."

What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?

https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

Can Satan Heal? | Women of Grace

Can Satan heal people?

If Satan cannot heal, how do you explain "miraculous healings," which apparently do not originate with God? | Church of the Eternal God

We need to heed the advice of Gamaliel when he advised his fellow-leaders concerning the Early Church. He said that if it is not of God it will fade out and become nothing; but if it is, better to leave them alone because we might end up fighting against God Himself.

It is quite clear from Scripture that when Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, signs, wonders and miracles were an integral part of it. When the Apostles preached the kingdom in Acts the same signs, wonders and miracles were there. This means that preaching the kingdom of God includes miraculous signs and wonders, otherwise it is not the kingdom of God that is being preached, but vain, useless, religious words.

The religious leaders of Jesus' time accused Him of doing His miracles through the power of Satan, and Jesus told them to be careful because it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for it, either on earth or in Heaven.

If the Holy Spirit is moving through this woman's ministry, to accuse her of performing satanic miracles is blaspheming the Holy Spirit and those who do could find the gates of Heaven shut against them when they arrive to try and get in.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." Our Guest Katherine Ruonala | Sid Roth "It's Supernatural"

"Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine." God Works Through Miracles

Some consider her church "cultic":

.Glory City Church – false prophets ?

.Australia’s Glory Clown: Katherine Ruonala

"This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another "spirit" is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement."

What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?

https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

Can Satan Heal? | Women of Grace

Can Satan heal people?

If Satan cannot heal, how do you explain "miraculous healings," which apparently do not originate with God? | Church of the Eternal God

If people are drawn to Christ and accept Him as Saviour because of the miracles, then these things cannot be of Satan because Satan's kingdom is not divided against itself.

Seadish · Nov 23, 2018

Oscar, I am in total agreement with in that such "churches" are growing so fast in this day and we must be very cautious . They may start out with the best of intentions but I thoroughly believe that although Biblical it is much to easy for the people in these arenas be so caught up that they do not see the unclean spirits taking over God set Biblical guidelines and we must follow them.

SkyWriting · Nov 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
This week i've been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady's healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

"And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open." Our Guest Katherine Ruonala | Sid Roth "It's Supernatural"

I get that with wax buildup. Every few years. Not that I don't wash my ears, but my ear tubes are prone to problems when I work too hard at it. I end up with popping noises when I swallow for months afterwards.

And I had full hearing loss in one ear, for a while. I think it has to do with muscles and bone alignment but the ear is so complicated that no one has looked into it much.

BCsenior · Nov 23, 2018

Oscarr said:
If people are drawn to Christ and accept Him as Saviour because of the miracles, then these things cannot be of Satan because Satan's kingdom is not divided against itself.

Yes, IMO, this is the crux of the matter ...
Why would Satan be involved in SWMs, which are
actually confirming the Truth of the gospel message?

In Eastern Europe, we gave out incredible gospel tracts, NTs, Bibles, etc. in the language of the people.
And this was accompanied by SWMs.
Paul said, "I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
He meant the gospel + SWMs.
Folks, this is THE FULL GOSPEL.

But, I'm not talking about being slain in the Spirit,
which perhaps serves no real purpose re: glorifying God or spreading the gospel ... UNLESS people see this as God doing it. In that case, we're back to:
the gospel accompanied by SWMs.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

BCsenior said:
Yes, IMO, this is the crux of the matter ...
Why would Satan be involved in SWMs, which are
actually confirming the Truth of the gospel message?

In Eastern Europe, we gave out incredible gospel tracts, NTs, Bibles, etc. in the language of the people.
And this was accompanied by SWMs.
Paul said, "I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
He meant the gospel + SWMs.
Folks, this is THE FULL GOSPEL.

But, I'm not talking about being slain in the Spirit,
which perhaps serves no real purpose re: glorifying God or spreading the gospel ... UNLESS people see this as God doing it. In that case, we're back to:
the gospel accompanied by SWMs.

The true signs and wonders involve miraculous healing, deliverance, disabled ones being fully restored, conviction of sin coming on the most hardened sinners and true and real conversions to Christ.

A lot of what we see in churches that appear to be signs and wonders, are displays, like shaking, falling down, and other physical antics, done for the spectators. Usually, when the real presence of God is there, sinners will shake and fall down under intense conviction of their own sinfulness. In the Brownsville revival, the dog-like barking was from demon possessed sinners manifesting, not genuine Christians motivated by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus first revealed Himself to me, I asked Him how to be a real Christian. He said, "Just be yourself. If I don't like you, I will change you." He also said, "Now that you have My presence with you, you don't need all that falling down, shaking stuff." It seemed that he was saying that professing Christians do that because they don't have the assurance that Jesus is really present with them and they have to try that sort of stuff to bring His presence to them. Maybe if they got genuinely converted to Christ, they may use a bit more common sense in their worship and seek God for the true signs and wonders that will get people healed and delivered, and for sinners to turn to Christ.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

Seadish said:
Oscar, I am in total agreement with in that such "churches" are growing so fast in this day and we must be very cautious . They may start out with the best of intentions but I thoroughly believe that although Biblical it is much to easy for the people in these arenas be so caught up that they do not see the unclean spirits taking over God set Biblical guidelines and we must follow them.

I don't think many people fully realise how narrow the gate is to true conversion to Christ. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me."

This means that no one comes to the Father by attending church, going up to the front and being prayed for, praying the sinner's prayer, praying long public prayers, shaking, shimmering, and falling over, teaching Sunday school, and all the other religious trappings of Christian churches.

Even living a moral life, helping neighbors, being kind to animals, etc, will not bring a person to the Father.

Only a genuine conversion to Christ will bring one to the Father, and God is the only One who can do it in a person, and it is by free grace and His mercy. The Scripture says, "By grace are you saved through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Of course, when we go to church, we don't know who are the genuinely converted ones and who are just religious. We can only see the outward appearance, and the religious ones may appear more holy and righteous than the truly converted ones. But God looks right into the heart of people. He know who are genuine and who are just putting on a religious show. And this is not limited just to the rank and file members, it can also apply to the deacons, elders and the pastor! There will be many of them in hell, because they depended on their own religious abilities, training and gifts, instead of going the full way of being converted to Christ.

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2018

Oscarr said:
If people are drawn to Christ and accept Him as Saviour because of the miracles, then these things cannot be of Satan because Satan's kingdom is not divided against itself.

If people merely mentally assent to the gospel solely because of seeing a deceptive miracle, are they even saved? Also what if the miracle working preacher is teaching false doctrines and or heresies, or is demon led?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
If people merely mentally assent to the gospel solely because of seeing a deceptive miracle, are they even saved? Also what if the miracle working preacher is teaching false doctrines and or heresies, or is demon led?

A person being healed or a disabled person being able to walk as the result of Gospel preaching and prayer cannot be deceptive. Satan will not shoot himself in the foot like that.

If a teacher is teaching false doctrine that does not line up with God's Word, then there will be no miracles at all. I know that there are many "healing" conferences and preachers claiming to have the gift of healing, but we don't see the actual results. We do see a lot of people claiming healing, but not with the actual healing taking place. Rather they claim it "by faith", and wonder why they don't get well, or they find themselves in eternity having died from their sickness!

But Jesus had a good answer to those who accused Him of casting demons out through the power of Satan: "If I cast out demons through Satan, then by what spirit do you cast them out?" In other words, his critics didn't cast any demons out at all.

So, my answer to those who are accusing healing ministries of false signs and wonders is:

If they are performing healing and deliverance through demonic spirits, then by what spirit are you getting people healed of sickness and disease, demons cast out, cripples restored to full function, and true conversions to Christ?

I would say that those critics are achieving none of those things, and their criticisms are motivated by sheer envy and jealousy, which are things that will shut them out of the gates of Heaven.

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2018

Oscarr said:
A person being healed or a disabled person being able to walk as the result of Gospel preaching and prayer cannot be deceptive. Satan will not shoot himself in the foot like that.

Satan's minister could preach a false gospel that doesn't save with temporary or deceitful healings & or miracles.

Is the gospel preached that of the apostle Paul, or a false gospel:

Gal.1: 6 I am amazed that so quickly you are deserting from the One having called you in the grace of Christ to another gospel, 7 which is not another, except there are some who are troubling you and are desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!

2 Cor.11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Is it the "faith plus works" gospel they preach? Or the "easy believism" gospel"? The "word faith" or a "prosperity gospel"?

Oscarr said:
If a teacher is teaching false doctrine that does not line up with God's Word, then there will be no miracles at all.

Alleged healers disagree in numerous points of doctrine. So that is going to reduce your true healers dramatically. They must be very few in number.

Oscarr said:
I know that there are many "healing" conferences and preachers claiming to have the gift of healing, but we don't see the actual results. We do see a lot of people claiming healing, but not with the actual healing taking place. Rather they claim it "by faith", and wonder why they don't get well, or they find themselves in eternity having died from their sickness!

But Jesus had a good answer to those who accused Him of casting demons out through the power of Satan: "If I cast out demons through Satan, then by what spirit do you cast them out?" In other words, his critics didn't cast any demons out at all.

So, my answer to those who are accusing healing ministries of false signs and wonders is:

If they are performing healing and deliverance through demonic spirits, then by what spirit are you getting people healed of sickness and disease, demons cast out, cripples restored to full function, and true conversions to Christ?

I would say that those critics are achieving none of those things, and their criticisms are motivated by sheer envy and jealousy, which are things that will shut them out of the gates of Heaven.

How do you know "true conversions" take place? How do you know anyone is truly, by the Spirit of Christ, "getting people healed of sickness and disease, demons cast out, cripples restored to full function"?

Why couldn't Satan command a demon to temporarily leave a person in order to promote a false gospel? Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out from the man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest and not finding any. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house, from where I came out.’ 25 And having come, it finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having entered, they dwell there; and the last of that man becomes worse than the first.”

The alleged healings & miracles in Kathryn Kuhlman’s meetings have been questioned:

Kathryn Kuhlman - Wikipedia

Regarding Satan healing:

Can Satan Heal? ⋆ Discerning the World

Can Satan Heal? | Women of Grace

Can Satan heal people?

If Satan cannot heal, how do you explain "miraculous healings," which apparently do not originate with God? | Church of the Eternal God

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 23, 2018

ClementofA said:
Satan's minister could preach a false gospel that doesn't save with temporary or deceitful healings & or miracles.

Is the gospel preached that of the apostle Paul, or a false gospel:

Gal.1: 6 I am amazed that so quickly you are deserting from the One having called you in the grace of Christ to another gospel, 7 which is not another, except there are some who are troubling you and are desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!

2 Cor.11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Is it the "faith plus works" gospel they preach? Or the "easy believism" gospel"? The "word faith" or a "prosperity gospel"?

Alleged healers disagree in numerous points of doctrine. So that is going to reduce your true healers dramatically. They must be very few in number.

How do you know "true conversions" take place? How do you know anyone is truly, by the Spirit of Christ, "getting people healed of sickness and disease, demons cast out, cripples restored to full function"?

Why couldn't Satan command a demon to temporarily leave a person in order to promote a false gospel? Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out from the man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest and not finding any. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house, from where I came out.’ 25 And having come, it finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having entered, they dwell there; and the last of that man becomes worse than the first.”

The alleged healings & miracles in Kathryn Kuhlman’s meetings have been questioned:

Kathryn Kuhlman - Wikipedia

She has also been accused of being a false prophet.

Regarding Satan healing:

Can Satan Heal? ⋆ Discerning the World

Can Satan Heal? | Women of Grace

Can Satan heal people?

If Satan cannot heal, how do you explain "miraculous healings," which apparently do not originate with God? | Church of the Eternal God

Anyone can accuse Kathryn Kuhlman of being false when she is not here to defend herself, and the majority of people saved and healed through her ministry are not around to defend her. So the accusations are, in the main, pure fantasy from jealous and envious religious people who cannot receive the gifts that she had. In fact, I have heard her messages on YouTube, and she has preached nothing but the Gospel. The healings that took place were not as the result of any teaching on healing, or even as a result of her prayers. People were healed spontaneously while present in her meetings, and some were healed of incurable sicknesses while on their way to the meetings! So these unconverted critics need to check their facts before making accusations of this kind.

A critical spirit, jealousy, envy, and contention are all works of the flesh and those who make a habit of them are not converted and they will end up in hell along with all the other lost sinners.

The salvation by works as described by Paul is the requirement to be circumcised as a Jew and to follow the Mosaic Law as a requirement for salvation. He is not speaking about the strictness of holiness that truly converted Christians should observe. Converted Christians do good works because they are converted and saved, not as a requirement to be saved. As I keep on saying, unless there is the work of conversion in a believer by the Holy Spirit (and it is just pretending "by faith", but a real transformation with substantive evidence of it), that person cannot be saved. It is not trying to be holy or trying to transform one's self, because we can't.

Say, if you want to show what genuine Holy Spirit signs and wonders really are, why not seek God to have them happen in your ministry? Then you can show the difference! If those things are not happening with you or in your church, then you have no basis for judgment of those who are experiencing those things.

As far as Satan healing anyone, the only example of that is the account of a person who was healed of lameness through an occult ceremony, and they were perfectly healed. But later on that person received Christ, was converted, and lost the healing.

We don't always know whether a professing Christ is truly converted or not, and usually we have to give people the benefit of the doubt.

But I do know that these ones who write articles and set up websites with the intention of rubbishing any ministry that tries to trust God for signs and wonders, are definitely not converted and are still dead in their sins despite their profession of Christianity. This is because they are demonstrating a demonic spirit of criticism and that will shut the gates of Heaven against them for sure, because no one can have a spirit of criticism dominating them and Christ at the same time. A critical spirit is not the spirit of Christ, and the Scripture says that those who don't have the spirit of Christ are none of His!

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2018

Oscarr said:
If those things are not happening with you or in your church, then you have no basis for judgment of those who are experiencing those things.

Obedience to God's Words in the Scriptures is the basis. Prove all things. Test the spirits. Know them by their lack of fruit, etc.

"Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God… When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11).

"…the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

"The existence of demonic miracles is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says. If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

"Examples of convincing demonic miracles today are the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in different countries. These appearances of Mary seem legitimate; indeed, they are believed by millions of people. But when we compare what the apparitions say to what Scripture teaches, it is not even close."

What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 24, 2018

ClementofA said:
Obedience to God's Words in the Scriptures is the basis. Prove all things. Test the spirits. Know them by their lack of fruit, etc.

"Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God… When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11).

"…the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

"The existence of demonic miracles is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says. If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

"Examples of convincing demonic miracles today are the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in different countries. These appearances of Mary seem legitimate; indeed, they are believed by millions of people. But when we compare what the apparitions say to what Scripture teaches, it is not even close."

What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?

It sounds like you're pretty adamant about this, and don't seem to be prepared to consider anything different. It is quite clear that Jesus plainly stated that His miracles of healing and deliverance were an integral component of the kingdom of God that He promoted. Also, it was exactly the same with the Apostles.

So, if you or your church are not having regular miraculous healing or deliverances then it is not preaching the kingdom of God, but just useless religious words. Paul said that when he visited the Corinthains church he didn't want to hear just words, but he wanted to see the power, and when he preached, it wasn't with the enticing words of man's wisdom but it was the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. Being consistent with Jesus' and the Apostle's preaching of the kingdom of God, the demonstration of the Spirit was made up of miracle healing and deliverance. At leas the Corinthian Church had the supernatural gifts of the Spirit operating, and so most churches are not even up to that standard, and it was a problem church!

I say again, if you believe that current healing ministries are fake, then where are your healings? How can you demonstrate what is true when it doesn't happen with you?

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2018

Oscarr said:
It sounds like you're pretty adamant about this, and don't seem to be prepared to consider anything different.

About what? That some professing Christ & alleging healings are frauds & fakes, lovers of money, deceitful workers?

Oscarr said:
It is quite clear that Jesus plainly stated that His miracles of healing and deliverance were an integral component of the kingdom of God that He promoted. Also, it was exactly the same with the Apostles.

I haven't denied that Jesus & some of His apostles in the Bible had healings in their ministries.

1 Cor.12:28And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

1 Cor.13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast,a but have not love, I am profited nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up. 5It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, it is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.

11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

Oscarr said:
So, if you or your church are not having regular miraculous healing or deliverances then it is not preaching the kingdom of God, but just useless religious words.

Was Billy Graham's entire ministry just "useless religious words"?

Gifts don't save & are not the power of God unto salvation, but rather it is the true (not a false) gospel that is the power of God to salvation:

Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Is everyone given a gift of healing:

1 Cor.12: 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

Anyone can claim "regular miraculous healing or deliverances". That doesn't make it a true statement or prove such occurrences are of God, rather than of Satan, natural, occult or other causes.

Oscarr said:
Paul said that when he visited the Corinthains church he didn't want to hear just words, but he wanted to see the power, and when he preached, it wasn't with the enticing words of man's wisdom but it was the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. Being consistent with Jesus' and the Apostle's preaching of the kingdom of God, the demonstration of the Spirit was made up of miracle healing and deliverance. At leas the Corinthian Church had the supernatural gifts of the Spirit operating, and so most churches are not even up to that standard, and it was a problem church!

It seems many of the Corinthians were in danger of not being saved. They needed to repent of their sins. Gifts don't save. One must repent & be born again from above.

John 2:23And when He was in Jerusalem in the Passover, in the Feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs that He was doing. 24But Jesus on His part did not did entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men, 25and because He had no need that anyone should testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.
1 Cor.1:22Forasmuch as both Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom, 23we, however, preach Christ having been crucified, a stumbling block indeed to the Jewish and foolishness to Gentiles,

Luke 16:27And he said, ‘Then I implore you, father, that you would send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.’
29But Abraham says, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent.’
31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.’”

Job 13:15Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

2 Cor.12:6 lest anyone should credit to me more than what he sees in me, or anyone hears of me,7and the surpassingness of the revelations.
Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited. 8Three times I begged the Lord for this, that it might depart from me. 9And He said to me, “My grace suffices you, for the power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore will I boast rather most gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, and difficulties for Christ; for when I might be weak, then I am strong.

Oscarr said:
I say again, if you believe that current healing ministries are fake,

Some alleged "healing ministries" have been shown to be fakes.

Oscarr said:
How can you demonstrate what is true

By the Word of God, by Scripture. By false teachings. By their fruits ye shall known them. By the preaching of false gospels, discerning of spirits, etc.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 24, 2018

ClementofA said:
About what? That some professing Christ & alleging healings are frauds & fakes, lovers of money, deceitful workers?

I haven't denied that Jesus & some of His apostles in the Bible had healings in their ministries.

1 Cor.12:28And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

1 Cor.13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast,a but have not love, I am profited nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up. 5It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, it is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.

11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

Was Billy Graham's entire ministry just "useless religious words"?

Gifts don't save & are not the power of God unto salvation, but rather it is the true (not a false) gospel that is the power of God to salvation:

Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Is everyone given a gift of healing:

1 Cor.12: 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

Anyone can claim "regular miraculous healing or deliverances". That doesn't make it a true statement or prove such occurrences are of God, rather than of Satan, natural, occult or other causes.

It seems many of the Corinthians were in danger of not being saved. They needed to repent of their sins. Gifts don't save. One must repent & be born again from above.

John 2:23And when He was in Jerusalem in the Passover, in the Feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs that He was doing. 24But Jesus on His part did not did entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men, 25and because He had no need that anyone should testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.
1 Cor.1:22Forasmuch as both Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom, 23we, however, preach Christ having been crucified, a stumbling block indeed to the Jewish and foolishness to Gentiles,

Luke 16:27And he said, ‘Then I implore you, father, that you would send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.’
29But Abraham says, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent.’
31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.’”

Job 13:15Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

2 Cor.12:6 lest anyone should credit to me more than what he sees in me, or anyone hears of me,7and the surpassingness of the revelations.
Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited. 8Three times I begged the Lord for this, that it might depart from me. 9And He said to me, “My grace suffices you, for the power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore will I boast rather most gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, and difficulties for Christ; for when I might be weak, then I am strong.

Some alleged "healing ministries" have been shown to be fakes.

By the Word of God, by Scripture. By false teachings. By their fruits ye shall known them. By the preaching of false gospels, discerning of spirits, etc.

You have quoted a lot of Scripture and told what other people are doing (By the way, Billy Graham did believe in signs and wonders, but he didn't make it public because he didn't want to alienate those good evangelicals who didn't believe in them). But where are YOUR miracles of healing?

I have to ask myself, where are mine? But then I don't go running down those who have ministries of healing and accusing them being fake without substantive evidence other than those demon inspired criticizers who make it their business to say that everyone is a fake except them!

BCsenior · Nov 24, 2018

Oscarr said:
So the accusations (against KK's SWMs) are, in the main, pure fantasy from jealous and envious religious people who cannot receive the gifts that she had.

I've always said the red is the #1 reason for men
instituting CESSATIONISM in the dim dark past.
Yes, the red is the reason for the season ... the season
of all those centuries of saying SWMs have ceased.

BCsenior · Nov 24, 2018

Oscarr said:
It is quite clear that Jesus plainly stated that His miracles of healing and deliverance were an integral component of the kingdom of God that He promoted.

I only believe in NT Christianity ... that is,
the truth of the true gospel being confirmed by SWMs!

Billy Evmur · Nov 25, 2018

Devil doesn't preach pardon, new life at the cross...you can be sure of that.

Hillsage · Nov 25, 2018

ClementofA said:
I haven't denied that Jesus & some of His apostles in the Bible had healings in their ministries.

I'm sorry Clement but could you show me where 'some of His apostles' did not have "healings in their ministries" of people? Even the 70 disciples surely included the 12 apostles.

LUK 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I've actually wondered about Judas since the following scripture declares even he had the authority.

LUK 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

This verse seems to leave no doubt as far as I'm concerned.

1 Cor.12:28And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

1 Cor.13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast,a but have not love, I am profited nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up. 5It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, it is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.

11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

I've heard enough of Oscarr here to say we believe nothing different. We as mature Charismatics absolutely understand the need for the 'Fruit' of the Spirit' to be mingled WITH the 'Gifts of the Spirit'. But we see so many "ungifted/unlearned" ones out there who also seem to fall into the 'Fruit only' trap and deny the supernatural 'Power Giftings".

Was Billy Graham's entire ministry just "useless religious words"?

Not at all. Though I know you won't like this, but I've said it many times here; What kind of "religious words" ministries" birthed all of the "ungifted/unlearned" people Paul warned the Charismatic church of Corinth about? A situation we only see magnified in this day.

Gifts don't save & are not the power of God unto salvation, but rather it is the true (not a false) gospel that is the power of God to salvation:

"Fruit doesn't save" either does it?

Is everyone given a gift of healing:

1 Cor.12: 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show to you now a more surpassing way.

NO! Nobody has 'the gift of healing' but the Holy Spirit AND the person His gift is intended to heal. We are simply ministering hoses for his water to flow through. Let me 'unpack' your verse above from my studies. First off, 'Apostle prophet teacher' gifts are not Charisma giftings, from the Spirit, they are doma gifts from Jesus, according to Ephesians 4. Whereas "healings, tongues, interprpretation of tongues" are Charisma/gifts. according to 1Co 12. So when Paul says to "desire the HIGHER giftings", he is talking about the spiritual Charisma ones from the Spirit and not the soulish Doma giftings from Jesus and the five-fold ministry.

This really just makes better application sense also. If the gift of Prophet was charisma from the Holy Spirit, and I had the 'charisma/gift of being a Prophet' but you happen to be in need the 'the charisma/gift of healing' what good am I to you. But if I have the 'doma/Gift of 'the Holy Spirit', then I can access all the charisma/gifts from the Holy Spirit. Gifts which are charisma manifestations and are handed out through as the Spirit wills in any situation needed.

Some alleged "healing ministries" have been shown to be fakes.

I agree. But there must be a 'true ministry' in order to have the representation of a 'fake ministries' right?

By their fruits ye shall known them. By the preaching of false gospels, discerning of spirits, etc.

True, but it is also truth that by the GIFTS you will do them. IOW we do not advocate 'looking a spiritual 'GIFT' horse in the mouth', just so we can become spiritual 'FRUIT' cakes'. We advocate both and....not either or. The color blue is symbolic of the Spirit and beneath the garment hem of the OT shadow priest ephod was a "bell and a pomegranate a bell and a pomegranate" The purpose of the 'fruit' wasn't to replace the bell, but to complement it.

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