Yes or No

HTacianas · Oct 13, 2018

ArmyMatt said:
the Filioque is heresy. it was condemned by East and West after the Synod which healed the Photian Schism was held for 200 years...until Rome changed her mind.

You always seem to have very direct answers to my sometimes indirect questions.

dzheremi · Oct 13, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
One thing I learned about the RCC a few years ago that shocked me is that it's common to skip confirmation and just attend years later for first communion. This practise is tolerated which is shocking. So that's a further point that their sacraments are invalid as they have become optional.

Is that not probably a result of their having temporally separated baptism and confirmation? It makes it seem like confirmation is not as important, which is a weird way to look at the sacraments in the first place, but I can't honestly imagine any other reason why anyone would skip confirmation, or tolerate it being skipped.

buzuxi02 · Oct 13, 2018

dzheremi said:
Is that not probably a result of their having temporally separated baptism and confirmation? It makes it seem like confirmation is not as important, which is a weird way to look at the sacraments in the first place, but I can't honestly imagine any other reason why anyone would skip confirmation, or tolerate it being skipped.

This is correct. Without confirmation there is no anointing of the Holy Spirit (not that I think their confirmation is efficacious). I believe when it was separated, for whatever reason baptism and First communion became viewed as a milestone with a dinner reception to celebrate while confirmation was more of a a quick minor religious act without pomp. Since the majority is nominal they just never show up to do it. But it's a festive custom to show up for first communion.

Markie Boy · Oct 13, 2018

I have read something about "Restored order of the sacraments", where some Catholics realize they goofed up the order of things. They currently do:
1. baptism
2. communion
3. confirmation

Some realize that 2 and 3 are backwards. Check this history on this, it's another recently changed thing - in 1910 by Pius X actually. Now some places are trying to go back, most are clueless. Theologically how the RCC does it today is just not right or historical.

Hermit76 · Oct 13, 2018

Please forgive my judgmental attitude, but my last visit to Catholic Mass made me feel like they think they're invalid. They were quite casual. At one time the priest dropped a host and it was like it was no big deal. The laity were servers. It was a contrast in the very least.

However, I agree with Matt's comments.

gzt · Oct 13, 2018

Markie Boy said:
I have read something about "Restored order of the sacraments", where some Catholics realize they goofed up the order of things. They currently do:
1. baptism
2. communion
3. confirmation

Some realize that 2 and 3 are backwards. Check this history on this, it's another recently changed thing - in 1910 by Pius X actually. Now some places are trying to go back, most are clueless. Theologically how the RCC does it today is just not right or historical.

YES. It is absurd. It makes literally no sense. This is what happens when you give up paedocommunion (with confirmation right at baptism). You lose sight of what is actually going on and start doing nonsense.

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 14, 2018

"Gather Us In." Just hear that hymn and you feel suicidal thoughts. Then the "vestments." Cringe-worthy. Next, the "altar girls." Help me, Lord. Then the banal sermon followed by more awful hymns. Some even have LITURGICAL DANCE. Nothing on Earth makes me nauseous and need dramamine more than liturgical dance. Get me a barf bag and some serious meds when I see that stuff. Ugh.....

Hermit76 said:
Please forgive my judgmental attitude, but my last visit to Catholic Mass made me feel like they think they're invalid. They were quite casual. At one time the priest dropped a host and it was like it was no big deal. The laity were servers. It was a contrast in the very least.

However, I agree with Matt's comments.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Oct 14, 2018

gurneyhalleck1 said:
"Gather Us In." Just hear that hymn and you feel suicidal thoughts. Then the "vestments." Cringe-worthy. Next, the "altar girls." Help me, Lord. Then the banal sermon followed by more awful hymns. Some even have LITURGICAL DANCE. Nothing on Earth makes me nauseous and need dramamine more than liturgical dance. Get me a barf bag and some serious meds when I see that stuff. Ugh.....

Don't worry man! It's just liturgy you'll be told...
So much for Orthopraxis and proper worship, it's treated as adiaphora (to quote Luther). Most Traditional Catholics I've known has given up on the liturgy and admitted defeat at the hands of the post Vatican ii Novus Ordo cult. They continue on saying basically liturgy doesn't matter we've lost, I just hope and pray that the pope doesn't decide to change dogmas and doctrine. It's the saddest thing really.

Proper worship is the cornerstone of orthodoxy and to give that up then the rest slowly start falling like dominos. Lex Orandi, lex credendi isn't taken out of thin air...

Phronema · Oct 14, 2018

gurneyhalleck1 said:
"Gather Us In." Just hear that hymn and you feel suicidal thoughts. Then the "vestments." Cringe-worthy. Next, the "altar girls." Help me, Lord. Then the banal sermon followed by more awful hymns. Some even have LITURGICAL DANCE. Nothing on Earth makes me nauseous and need dramamine more than liturgical dance. Get me a barf bag and some serious meds when I see that stuff. Ugh.....

I just youtube'd an example of this, and I'm surprised. I sat in on a mass or two about 25-30 years ago as a kid, and I don't remember Catholic mass being anything like that. The liturgical dance may be nice for a talent show, but it seems inappropriate for a mass. Very strange that they'd decide to add that. I'll just say I feel for the Catholics who prefer a traditional mass.

Lukaris · Oct 14, 2018

Most people will never even have a chance to be Orthodox. It is a miracle that others can at least be Christians & hopefully be given a message of salvation in which the believer is aware of that salvation by grace is a commitment to be expressed in works ( Ephesians 2:8-10). St. Mark the Ascetic (Philokalia vol. 1) preaching from Luke 17:5-10 reminds us, “the kingdom of heaven is not a reward for works but a gift of grace prepared by the Master for his faithful servants.”

prodromos · Oct 14, 2018

dzheremi said:
Is that not probably a result of their having temporally separated baptism and confirmation? It makes it seem like confirmation is not as important, which is a weird way to look at the sacraments in the first place, but I can't honestly imagine any other reason why anyone would skip confirmation, or tolerate it being skipped.

Especially given that in Western Catholicism, Chrismation can only be done by the bishop. They allow baptism and communion to be performed by their priests, but considered Chrismation to be of such importance that only the bishop could do it. After all, it is the seal of the Holy Spirit.
What a tragedy that it has led to it being considered 'optional' by some.

ArmyMatt · Oct 14, 2018

Light of the East said:
I'm not taking this "staunch stance." I was responding to someone who was.

I'm not God and judgment is not my job.

I know you're not, just pointing out that to conclude that Rome has no salvation is not correct.

ArmyMatt · Oct 14, 2018

HTacianas said:
You always seem to have very direct answers to my sometimes indirect questions.

I do what I can, and I am not writing an essay here

Mary of Bethany · Oct 14, 2018

I remember what my former priest had to say about the Catholic Church, and whether there is still Grace to be found there. When the vine is severed from the root (by schism) it doesn’t die immediately. But over time it withers. That doesn’t mean there can be no Grace for those who seek, by God’s mercy, but it is no longer found in the withered vine.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Oct 15, 2018

Mary of Bethany said:
I remember what my former priest had to say about the Catholic Church, and whether there is still Grace to be found there. When the vine is severed from the root (by schism) it doesn’t die immediately. But over time it withers. That doesn’t mean there can be no Grace for those who seek, by God’s mercy, but it is no longer found in the withered vine.

I assume that applies for one or several of the orthodox churches who schism one another in these days too then?
Sorry, but I find such a statement a tad to prideful for my taste. Pride is a grave sin too which is important to beware.

I think its beneficial for people to focus more on the church than where she isnt. Go to DL, love God and pray for all heterodox Christian's as is a part of the liturgy. Seek first Gods kingdom.

ArmyMatt · Oct 15, 2018

Knocking On Heavens Door said:
I assume that applies for one or several of the orthodox churches who schism one another in these days too then?
Sorry, but I find such a statement a tad to prideful for my taste. Pride is a grave sin too which is important to beware.

I think its beneficial for people to focus more on the church than where she isnt. Go to DL, love God and pray for all heterodox Christian's as is a part of the liturgy. Seek first Gods kingdom.

you are totally correct that the focus should be on my sin and my salvation.

but the statement isn't a proud one. if you cut a leaf from the vine, it will wither and die no matter how much you try to make it look alive.

icxn · Oct 15, 2018

Mary of Bethany said:
I remember what my former priest had to say about the Catholic Church, and whether there is still Grace to be found there. When the vine is severed from the root (by schism) it doesn’t die immediately. But over time it withers. That doesn’t mean there can be no Grace for those who seek, by God’s mercy, but it is no longer found in the withered vine.

St. Justin Popovich said something similar, though I remember reading the exact sentiment you quoted somewhere, in Elder Sophrony's perhaps or St. Nikolai Velimirovich's writings... I can't place it right now.

ArmyMatt · Oct 15, 2018

icxn said:
St. Justin Popovich said something similar, though I remember reading the exact sentiment you quoted somewhere, in Elder Sophrony's perhaps or St. Nikolai Velimirovich's writings... I can't place it right now.

as did Hmk Ambrose (Young)

Light of the East · Oct 15, 2018

ArmyMatt said:
you are totally correct that the focus should be on my sin and my salvation.

but the statement isn't a proud one. if you cut a leaf from the vine, it will wither and die no matter how much you try to make it look alive.

I would say that this is exactly what has happened to several of the Eastern Catholic Churches who cut themselves off the vine, in particular the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches of the Ural Mountains (Ukraine).

No matter how hard I try to be Orthodox, they were having none of it, and finally, my run in with the latinizing priest at the Ruthenians got me tossed out. I have heard from a very dear friend who left them and "doxxed" that my old parish has a lot of suffering people in it, but he is not at liberty to tell me what exactly is going on. My thought: for heaven's sake, people, if you are hurting, go across the street and find the True Church!!!!

Markie Boy · Oct 15, 2018

I wonder - I have only attended Novus Ordo Catholic service, and I just don't connect with the sacraments there.

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