How much of a role does God play when it comes to bringing people to him?

JohnB445 said:

Some say its by election 100%
Some by our choice to seek and find 100%
Some say a little bit of both.

There are dozens of religions, even denominations that all have their own formula for salvation which contradict other formulas in other religions. A universalist view would not make logical sense, so the formulas can't all = the same. We can see what we put our faith in as life and death when it comes to the afterlife.

Along with that some people are born under different circumstances. For example, a person who is born in a Islamic country may be more influenced in becoming a Muslim. Or some people may die at a young age and not be saved, while someone at age 80 finally becomes saved.

Information is vast, could one if given in their lifetime truly figure out which is the correct path given with the vast amounts of information?

There are 3 Abrahamic religions.
1. Judaism
2. Christianity, along with dozens of denominations with their own formula for salvation. Not to mention a new emergence of "Restorationist" Which almost all of them have a completely different gospel.
3. Islam
4. Then we have denominations of Christianity that are embracing some 2nd coming Messiah who they claim already came with a new method of salvation.
Then on top of that, we have dozens of other religions.

33% of the world professes to be Christian, who knows what % are born again. 33% alone is quite a small percentage when you look at it, because that means possibly 2/3rds of the world will end up being unsaved.

And this is what I mean when it means life and death.
1. Christianity says everyone who rejects Jesus will be in hell.
2. The Talmud says Christians will be in a unpleasant place in the after life.
3. Islam says Christians will be burned.

1/3=33.33% so that's the chance if we look at it in a probability perspective just including the three major Abrahamic Religions.


It wouldn't be logical to make a conclusion that those outside of Christianity all know that they are rejecting the Messiah. So I don't think that when everybody is born they automatically know who the Messiah is and have a choice to accept or reject because if it was the case then most of the world would be Christian.

Based on all this I would conclude that although we do have a choice, God ultimately is what plays the major role on who becomes born again or not. Because some peoples eyes will all of a sudden be open no matter how blind they were (Many testimonies of that).

How much would you say God's role plays when it comes to people becoming Born again and Christian?

Click to expand...

The Lord looks at the heart, something we humans can not do.

1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,

1 Chronicles 28:9

"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

1 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Psalm 19:14

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 38:9

Lord, all my desire is before You; And my sighing is not hidden from You.

Psalm 44:21

Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.


Proverbs 21:2

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.

Jeremiah 11:20

But, O LORD of hosts, who judges righteously, Who tries the feelings and the heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them, For to You have I committed my cause.

Matthew 9:4

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

Mark 2:8

Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?

Luke 5:22

But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

I say it is 100% of both at the same time.

I believe that God wouldn't create and punish people who had no chance to come to him.

I believe in a just God. I believe all have a chance to renounce evil and come to Him. The flesh is sinful but God breathed life into us before it was corrupted. Those who are still His after the fall (sorry, I no longer think in earth's notion of time for Heavenly events) will accept His call. Those who prefer evil will be punished.

This paragraph is fanciful but thinking just now about the consciousness, spirit that God breathed into us. It might get either thoroughly contaminated and twisted by the world and our desires, or there is a small part that responds when he calls. Whether our heart loves goodness or loves pleasing the self more. Whether it is for corruption or for loving others. Ultimately, whether one believes God and the Holy Spirit and then our heart recognises His call as the right thing or if it despises Him instead.

To even write about rejecting the call of our Holy God is a hard and solemn thing.

We can not say that we have no choice in it and also say that people ought to be punished for being wicked if they have no choice. God's ways are higher than ours and our thoughts aren't His thoughts but even so I know He is just and it must be our fault if we are punished.

I believe the old and new testament says that throughout. From Genesis to Revelation. From the beginning until the end of the age.

One thing the Lord has shown me is that it only takes the smallest determination to chose His will and He will move a mountain and create a fire out of a spark.

JohnB445 said:

Some say its by election 100%
Some by our choice to seek and find 100%
Some say a little bit of both.

There are dozens of religions, even denominations that all have their own formula for salvation which contradict other formulas in other religions. A universalist view would not make logical sense, so the formulas can't all = the same. We can see what we put our faith in as life and death when it comes to the afterlife.

Along with that some people are born under different circumstances. For example, a person who is born in a Islamic country may be more influenced in becoming a Muslim. Or some people may die at a young age and not be saved, while someone at age 80 finally becomes saved.

Information is vast, could one if given in their lifetime truly figure out which is the correct path given with the vast amounts of information?

There are 3 Abrahamic religions.
1. Judaism
2. Christianity, along with dozens of denominations with their own formula for salvation. Not to mention a new emergence of "Restorationist" Which almost all of them have a completely different gospel.
3. Islam
4. Then we have denominations of Christianity that are embracing some 2nd coming Messiah who they claim already came with a new method of salvation.
Then on top of that, we have dozens of other religions.

33% of the world professes to be Christian, who knows what % are born again. 33% alone is quite a small percentage when you look at it, because that means possibly 2/3rds of the world will end up being unsaved.

And this is what I mean when it means life and death.
1. Christianity says everyone who rejects Jesus will be in hell.
2. The Talmud says Christians will be in a unpleasant place in the after life.
3. Islam says Christians will be burned.

1/3=33.33% so that's the chance if we look at it in a probability perspective just including the three major Abrahamic Religions.


It wouldn't be logical to make a conclusion that those outside of Christianity all know that they are rejecting the Messiah. So I don't think that when everybody is born they automatically know who the Messiah is and have a choice to accept or reject because if it was the case then most of the world would be Christian.

Based on all this I would conclude that although we do have a choice, God ultimately is what plays the major role on who becomes born again or not. Because some peoples eyes will all of a sudden be open no matter how blind they were (Many testimonies of that).

How much would you say God's role plays when it comes to people becoming Born again and Christian?

Click to expand...

I have never heard that the Talmud says that Christians will be in an unpleasant place in the afterlife. However, even if it does, every Jewish website that I have checked, and I have checked quite a few, all say those who abide by the Noahide laws will go to Heaven, regardless of their religion.

JohnB445 said:

How much of a role does God play when it comes to bringing people to him?
Some say its by election 100%
Some by our choice to seek and find 100%
Some say a little of both.

Click to expand...

Here is something to consider from St. Paul.


--David
p.s. - no one can come to Jesus and be saved unless he/she is first drawn by/given to Him by His Father. Likewise ~all~ who the Father "draws"/ἑλκύω [helkuo]* in this sense will be saved.

.
*ἑλκύω [helkuo] - means to drag off, to impel, to draw by inward power/by irresistible force (Peter "drew" his sword .. John 18:10; Paul and Silas were "dragged" into the marketplace before the authorities .. Acts of the Apostles 16:19).

ἑλκύω ~never~ means to "woo" or to "entice" or to "hope to receive the favor of", etc., Biblically -or- extra-Biblically**.


The Father draws us by quickening/changing our hearts .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, and by doing so He makes us His workmanship/masterpiece, makes us into wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10. Salvation/justification is solely a matter of God's mercy and grace, merited for us by the works that Christ did for us/on our behalf, His life, His death on the Cross, and His resurrection .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5. He is therefore our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement/satisfaction for our sins. IOW, we are saved/justified by Christ alone, 100% (to answer your OP question directly). That said, we are the ones choose to "believe"/do the believing, however, we are only able to do so because of the "gift" of saving faith that God gives to all of us who are/will be His.

Finally, while we are saved/justified by the things that God does in us/for us alone, the best evidence we have that our gracious salvation from Him is real is principally found in what 'we' do/say/think/desire in response to it, the "fruit" (if you will) that accompanies our salvation, and how our lives have changed as a result .. cf 2 Corinthians 13:5.

JohnB445 said:

Some say its by election 100%
Some by our choice to seek and find 100%
Some say a little bit of both.

There are dozens of religions, even denominations that all have their own formula for salvation which contradict other formulas in other religions. A universalist view would not make logical sense, so the formulas can't all = the same. We can see what we put our faith in as life and death when it comes to the afterlife.

Along with that some people are born under different circumstances. For example, a person who is born in a Islamic country may be more influenced in becoming a Muslim. Or some people may die at a young age and not be saved, while someone at age 80 finally becomes saved.

Information is vast, could one if given in their lifetime truly figure out which is the correct path given with the vast amounts of information?

There are 3 Abrahamic religions.
1. Judaism
2. Christianity, along with dozens of denominations with their own formula for salvation. Not to mention a new emergence of "Restorationist" Which almost all of them have a completely different gospel.
3. Islam
4. Then we have denominations of Christianity that are embracing some 2nd coming Messiah who they claim already came with a new method of salvation.
Then on top of that, we have dozens of other religions.

33% of the world professes to be Christian, who knows what % are born again. 33% alone is quite a small percentage when you look at it, because that means possibly 2/3rds of the world will end up being unsaved.

And this is what I mean when it means life and death.
1. Christianity says everyone who rejects Jesus will be in hell.
2. The Talmud says Christians will be in a unpleasant place in the after life.
3. Islam says Christians will be burned.

1/3=33.33% so that's the chance if we look at it in a probability perspective just including the three major Abrahamic Religions.


It wouldn't be logical to make a conclusion that those outside of Christianity all know that they are rejecting the Messiah. So I don't think that when everybody is born they automatically know who the Messiah is and have a choice to accept or reject because if it was the case then most of the world would be Christian.

Based on all this I would conclude that although we do have a choice, God ultimately is what plays the major role on who becomes born again or not. Because some peoples eyes will all of a sudden be open no matter how blind they were (Many testimonies of that).

How much would you say God's role plays when it comes to people becoming Born again and Christian?

Click to expand...

Depends on individual need would be my first guess, but I believe the 100% figure is true only in an abstract tho still relevant way in the sense that he is "The First Cause" & everything else is a consequence anticipated in omniscience.

drjean said:

Election, in that God elects ALL humans to come to Him! HE draws them.
They have free will to refuse, such as Pharoah?
My belief (based in Scripture that says no man comes on his own indeed is unable to come on his own, but the Holy Spirit draws him) to support the first sentence above is this=== HUMANS. All HUMANS. We know that there were mixed before the flood and we know that satan has continued this practice, and even today we know that there are 'robotoids' or 'chimeras' as some call them... not fully humans... on this planet. ONLY Humans but ALL Humans are called to God. Since I don't know who is who...I witness to all I meet!?

Click to expand...

Doesn't freedom of the will occur in a gradation of gravity so to speak?
Impairments are legion, and God "hardened Pharoah's heart, yes?
I wonder if we aren't letting perfect become the enemy of good.

JohnB445 said:

Some say its by election 100%
Some by our choice to seek and find 100%
Some say a little bit of both.

There are dozens of religions, even denominations that all have their own formula for salvation which contradict other formulas in other religions. A universalist view would not make logical sense, so the formulas can't all = the same. We can see what we put our faith in as life and death when it comes to the afterlife.

Along with that some people are born under different circumstances. For example, a person who is born in a Islamic country may be more influenced in becoming a Muslim. Or some people may die at a young age and not be saved, while someone at age 80 finally becomes saved.

Information is vast, could one if given in their lifetime truly figure out which is the correct path given with the vast amounts of information?

There are 3 Abrahamic religions.
1. Judaism
2. Christianity, along with dozens of denominations with their own formula for salvation. Not to mention a new emergence of "Restorationist" Which almost all of them have a completely different gospel.
3. Islam
4. Then we have denominations of Christianity that are embracing some 2nd coming Messiah who they claim already came with a new method of salvation.
Then on top of that, we have dozens of other religions.

33% of the world professes to be Christian, who knows what % are born again. 33% alone is quite a small percentage when you look at it, because that means possibly 2/3rds of the world will end up being unsaved.

And this is what I mean when it means life and death.
1. Christianity says everyone who rejects Jesus will be in hell.
2. The Talmud says Christians will be in a unpleasant place in the after life.
3. Islam says Christians will be burned.

1/3=33.33% so that's the chance if we look at it in a probability perspective just including the three major Abrahamic Religions.


It wouldn't be logical to make a conclusion that those outside of Christianity all know that they are rejecting the Messiah. So I don't think that when everybody is born they automatically know who the Messiah is and have a choice to accept or reject because if it was the case then most of the world would be Christian.

Based on all this I would conclude that although we do have a choice, God ultimately is what plays the major role on who becomes born again or not. Because some peoples eyes will all of a sudden be open no matter how blind they were (Many testimonies of that).

How much would you say God's role plays when it comes to people becoming Born again and Christian?

Click to expand...

You have to be call to repentance and faith. I dont see other religions nessacarily lost, final judgment is where that is sorted out. I believe God is in the business of saving people. How God does that apart from the gospel I dont know, but apart from Christ its impossible.

St_Worm2 said:

Here is something to consider from St. Paul.


Romans 3

9 ...both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”


--David

Click to expand...

Actually Romans 3:10 is addressed to Gentiles.

The cutting off of Israel sent a tremendous shock through the Ancient Near East.

The Jews tried to recover by insisting on circumcising all the Christians.

The Gentiles insisted on keeping their old status: not circumcised. They reasoned that God was happier with uncircumcised people rather than circumcised. Paul announced not so: All have sinned, there is none righteous, all have fallen short of the glory of God. The same argument of Ephesians 2:8, 9:

Gentiles were not more worthy.

Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

p.s. - no one can come to Jesus and be saved unless he/she is first drawn by/given to Him by His Father. Likewise ~all~ who the Father "draws"/ἑλκύω [helkuo]* in this sense will be saved.


John 6

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me "ἑλκύω/draws" him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (see also: John 6:37-40)

.

*ἑλκύω [helkuo] - means to drag off, to impel, to draw by inward power/by irresistible force (Peter "drew" his sword .. John 18:10; Paul and Silas were "dragged" into the marketplace before the authorities .. Acts of the Apostles 16:19).


ἑλκύω ~never~ means to "woo" or to "entice" or to "hope to receive the favor of", etc., Biblically -or- extra-Biblically**.


**(δελεάζω [deleazo] is the word that's translated "woo" or "entice" .. e.g. "each one is tempted when he is carried away and ~enticed~ by his own lust" .. James 1:14).


The Father draws us by quickening/changing our hearts .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, and by doing so He makes us His workmanship/masterpiece, makes us into wholly new creaturesin Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10. Salvation/justification is solely a matter of God's mercy and grace, merited for us by the works that Christ did for us/on our behalf, His life, His death on the Cross, and His resurrection .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5. He is therefore our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement/satisfaction for our sins. IOW, we are saved/justified by Christ alone, 100% (to answer your OP question directly). That said, we are the ones choose to "believe"/do the believing, however, we are only able to do so because of the "gift" of saving faith that God gives to all of us who are/will be His.


Finally, while we are saved/justified by the things that God does in us/for us alone, the best evidence we have that our gracious salvation from Him is real is principally found in what 'we' do/say/think/desire in response to it, the "fruit" (if you will) that accompanies our salvation, and how our lives have changed as a result .. cf 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Last edited: Today at 6:32 AM

Simul Justus et Peccator ~Luther


"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~Calvin


"The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

Click to expand...

Actually the Ordo Salutis is this:

God made man in His image. That means they have the ability to think, to reflect, unlike animals, which operate on instinct. He expects humanity to use that ability, not live like animals, eating, sleeping, procreating and then dying. Futile living.

Those who reflect find out that futile living is useless and even harmful to others. If we live selfish lives we are refusing to use the ability that make us images of God, we love the darkness, exploiting others so our own lives are more comfortable. The text says that God put different people in different situations of difficulty, so that the futility of life would wake them up, hoping that they would grope around for an answer, and find Him.

Acts of the Apostles 17: 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

That's why He gave Joseph a dream, which would anger his family, setting off a chain of events that placed Israel in Egypt, so that the futile life they were living in Canaan of serving self interest for treasure that perishes, serving an oppressive master, life, for little gain that didn't even last, would be presented in an extreme form.

When people's eyes were open, He gave them to Christ. These are His sheep. They lived as sojourners in this world, saying that they were alienated by the existing human condition and God was not ashamed to be called their God, and He prepared a Holy City for them, a new humanity in Christ for them to abide in.

Hebrews 11:8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she b considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Those who were not sheep were those who loved the darkness. They loved living in darkness because it was the broad path, a comfortable and easy life. They ignored the oppressiveness of life, and overcame some of it by oppressing others.

Those who heard God's voice, who were His sheep, were given to Christ, God drew them with the miracles He did, the treasure from heaven earned by serving the interests of God, who fed them water from the Rock and bread from Heaven, more proof that a person could enter a new humanity that gained treasure that does not perish by serving God. Just as Israel saw that God could save from hunger and thirst (which God caused) in the wilderness, the people in Jerusalem saw a blind man (who was made blind by God) receive sight. You see, the reason people are drawn to Christ is that they were not happy with the existing satet of affairs: serving the interests of self for treasure that perishes and when they saw that serving the interests of God (which they felt comfortable with in any case) resulted in treasure that lasts, they were immediately attracted to Christ. The reason the Pharisees were not drawn to christ was because they wanted to force God into giving them the ability to live a life that resulted in blessings so that other nations would give them honor and tribute in order to allowed to share in those blessings. This was because God had promised that the seed of Abraham would be a blessing to the world and they wanted to hold God to that promise. However there seemed to be a formula to being considered a seed of Abraham, and the Jews searched Scripture to find out what that formula was. Every rabbi had a halakha, Works of the Law, a formula to identify what the seed of Abraham was.

The Sinaitic Covenant did not give life to believers, it killed, but it did not send them to hell to perish. It protected like a pedagogos, a guardian, a babysitter protects, until the parents, Christ and the New Covenant arrived. The Sinaitic Covenant gave life to the One it was supposed to give life to, the true Seed.

Now our Father lives, the real Rest, the true Promised Land, the Holy City, the Jerusalem from above, in whom we can be fulfilled in, be empowered by the Holy Spirit in, become blessings to the world, as promised by God to Abraham, by abiding, through faithfulness to Christ.

Being loyal, by words first, and by action when necessary. The Law of Freedom, to choose how to express that loyalty. We should however be careful how we use that freedom, because the one who judges our way of observing the law of liberty will not be merciful if we are not merciful.[/QUOTE]